Zovaal, the Arbiter, and Argus

[For_The_Horde]

Is it confirmed? i mean, it could be her or Eonar, not biological sisters, more like "nature-lovin' hippie sisters"

Pretty sure there was a cutscene where they referred to the Primus and Denathrius as brothers too, so maybe they're just fellow "Eternal Ones" which would make Elune an "Eternal One" as well. We still need to find out what Eternal Ones are and where they came from, but they seem to be lords of death in the Shadowlands.

And I wish people would stop saying Eonar is Elune, they're absolutely nothing alike in any way, Elune is NOT a nature goddess, she is literally a death goddess. People would know this if they've been paying any attention to any questline or dialog or location tied to Elune in any way. She empowers warriors to fight better, most quests involving Elune are either related to WAR or communing with spirits, her own temple on the Broken Shore is filled with spirits of ancient worshippers (and literal ghost statues). Biggest clue however is when Ysera died, and Elune showed her power to eclipse the sun and directly claim the spirit of Ysera in front of our very eyes (and then dump that spirit on her "sister's" front yard with a note that says "rez plz thx".)

Elune is a goddess of war and spirits and death, and Tyrande is now an embodiment of Elune's power and fury, going all doomslayer in the maw.

[huth]

Ursoc was a wild god, a being of life, and he ended up in the Shadowlands.

As far as we can tell, they're technically still mortals who got a special deal from Life. Also, Ardenweald has a clear connection with Life.
Wild Gods do not automatically return to life on their "home plane" as a magical being would. Ardenweald facilitates that process.

I'm going to think that a world soul may be more complicated than a mortal soul; but to say that Sargeras wouldn't have had a "very special sword" is kind of silly.

Not special as in being explicitly the most powerful "Mourneblade" forged in the Shadowlands itself. For the most part, Sargeras blade was just a very big sword, befitting his own size. Also, you're just arbitrarily adding attributes to world souls based on what they would need to be like to work with your hypothesis. You're presupposing that they are just like they need to be so it works, rather than examining whether they might be. That's wishful thinking, not proper arguing.

Yes, that is the story that Denathrius has sold his flock.

But souls who are unredeemable get sent to the maw. One may think that their lack of redemption is due to their being "strong enough to resist", and thus perfect for the Jailer's needs.

No, it's really about whether they want to or not. Even a weak soul will get sent to the Maw if it is sufficiently unrepentant, and strong ones wouldn't if they weren't.

It's also clear that this is in fact what the Venthyr had been doing for eons. The change of pace has been relatively recent and there's a considerable group that wants to do their actual job.

[A Chozo]

Jesus Christ thread is already full of people passing speculation as facts.

Simply put, no, the two halves of the cleaved World Soul aren't the Arbiter and the Jailer. The Nathrezim book found on Revendreth was written before Sargeras turned evil, before he knew about the Void Lords' plans. If the master of the writer is Denathrius, it means that he was tinkering with the idea of Death conquering the Universe even before the Burning Legion began, which would also mean that he would've been working with the Jailer since that too.

The Jailer and the other Eternal Ones were all "siblings", friends, each had an pedestal in Oribos along the Arbiter, and apparently the First Ones organized it all that way. Think about the possibility of the Shadowlands and all it's Eternal Ones existing before Aman'thul became sentient and cruised the Great Dark.

But alas, time in the Shadowlands is bonkers.

[bagina]

Maybe the Eternal Ones were the prototypes and Titans are the final models.

[yamix]

I've also been wondering if they purposely have avoided talking about world souls. It seems likely that there have been plenty of destroyed world souls by now, but we know of at least 1 for sure. I also considered that perhaps Argus set all this off, but I don't see how that could have been planned before any character even considered that a possibility as far as I know (Sylvanas was making deals with Helya well before going to Argus even seemed possible - I don't think she would risk her plans on something out of her control if she could avoid it. I feel like the only beings that would have the high level view and consider it would be the void lords).

It's not clear whether she knew that Meuh'zala would make her warchief or not. Perhaps it was yet another deal.

We have a lot of blanks still.

Hell, it's not even clear to me if Nyalotha is fucking real, whether Il'gynoth was just a branch of N'zoth or its own complete entity or... ever even real to begin with (we only see it in the nightmare and Nyalotha that I recall).

The cutscene makes it seem like something coming from life -> death triggered the event (it *looked* like it came from the stream of souls... but... who knows).
Notable deaths around the time (def. after Ysera) would have been Gul'dan...(Does he go to MU or AU shadowlands? Fucking A - I feel like it has to be AU - don't we see Garrosh in cinematics, and didn't he die in the AU? Thus the soul returned to the original universe?) Elisande... Argus... Kil'Jaeden... Avatar of Sargeras (Did it have a fraction of him still or something? I figured it was more like a robot).


I don't know, I feel like Sylvanas' run in with death in the ICC quests and the valkyrs are where the missing pieces fit, but I can't see what goes there, exactly - maybe it's as simple as the Helm of Domination as far as the connective tissue to the jailer, but that wouldn't explain the original event to begin with. I'm not sure how else she would know to even go to Helya.

Then we have Denathrius apparently taking credit for the drought, but it's unclear to me *how*. And how did those fuckers get a Naaru?

So many questions.

[Aresk]

The problem that I think a lot of people have is that infinity is not a real number, and so typical logic does not apply to it. Infinity can mean different things in different contexts, there are different kinds of infinity, different degrees of infinity, etc. With the Shadowlands, there is necessarily infinite planes within it because there are infinite universes with infinite people. Within any given universe there is, conceivably, a finite number of people who will ever be born and die, but it's effectively an endless series (i.e.: infinite) until the last mortal in the universe dies.

That said, this is sort of the point of the cosmic realms in any fantasy setting. They're typically abstract and hard to understand, sometimes even altering to cater to whomever is observing them, making them impossible to accurately quantify or describe. Within the context of the Legion, they essentially ripped the concept of a singular force of demons from D&D, where the Abyss is a singular celestial plane, like many of the other celestial planes, which transcends any physical/material reality.

Infinite series can still converge. It's not sufficient to have an infinite number of universes to have an infinite number of people to have an infinite number of Shadowlands realms. You need to prove that these infinite universes don't converge, which they easily could if all but a finite number of them have no one living there.

Even if there are an infinite number of populated universes, the whole "threads into ropes" process gives us a means of essentially consolidating these to one universe. If there is a finite number of universes whose unions form a superset of individuals of which all other universes' occupants are a subset of people (e.g. if all characters that ever exist in any alternate timeline have a corresponding character in our universe or WoD's universe), and if that superset is finite, then even having an infinite number of universes will eventually collapse into a finite number of dead (though you could still get an infinite number of afterlives from a finite number of dead in this scenario if these infinite threads going into the one rope each requires a different afterlife before merging).

Essentially, we have no means of extrapolating on whether there are an infinite or finite number of afterlives from the information that we have (regarding an infinite number of universes).

[Tinary]

We have a lot of blanks still.

Hell, it's not even clear to me if Nyalotha is fucking real, whether Il'gynoth was just a branch of N'zoth or its own complete entity or... ever even real to begin with (we only see it in the nightmare and Nyalotha that I recall).


I don't know, I feel like Sylvanas' run in with death in the ICC quests and the valkyrs are where the missing pieces fit, but I can't see what goes there, exactly - maybe it's as simple as the Helm of Domination as far as the connective tissue to the jailer, but that wouldn't explain the original event to begin with. I'm not sure how else she would know to even go to Helya.

Then we have Denathrius apparently taking credit for the drought, but it's unclear to me *how*. And how did those fuckers get a Naaru?

So many questions.

Did they not imprison Naaru when light attacked Revendreth?

Also few of Il'gynoths whispers are interesting:
Five keys to open our way. Five torches to light our path. (Covenants+Arbiter?)
Five lanterns now darkened. The flames they seek will light the Masters' way. (Again?)
At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming (Sylvanas as raid boss confirmed?)
The vassal of life disguises treachery. Beware the eyes of green. (Ysera in shadowlands?)

Also, the thing that broke Arbiter was red so its either something from Revendreth or, hear me out, Xavius. If the Jailer made a deal with Void, Xaviuses death could have triggered Arbiters sleep/power off. Call it nightmare powers or stuff.

[Steelangel]

As far as we can tell, they're technically still mortals who got a special deal from Life. Also, Ardenweald has a clear connection with Life.
Wild Gods do not automatically return to life on their "home plane" as a magical being would. Ardenweald facilitates that process.

This doesn't obviate anything that I said.

Not special as in being explicitly the most powerful "Mourneblade" forged in the Shadowlands itself. For the most part, Sargeras blade was just a very big sword, befitting his own size. Also, you're just arbitrarily adding attributes to world souls based on what they would need to be like to work with your hypothesis. You're presupposing that they are just like they need to be so it works, rather than examining whether they might be. That's wishful thinking, not proper arguing.

Outside of the RPG, there isn't much said about the sword of Sargeras. I wouldn't think that the Titan charged with defeating the enemies of the Titans would be handed just a "very big sword", however, any more than Khadgar wields a "carved stick".

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Also, the thing that broke Arbiter was red so its either something from Revendreth or, hear me out, Xavius. If the Jailer made a deal with Void, Xaviuses death could have triggered Arbiters sleep/power off. Call it nightmare powers or stuff.

Mythic Argus was also red, and the Mythic version of boss fights are usually the ones considered 'canon' (see Archimonde in WoD).

[huth]

This doesn't obviate anything that I said.

They're not beings of Life. They're still mortals. Clearer now?

Mythic Argus was also red, and the Mythic version of boss fights are usually the ones considered 'canon' (see Archimonde in WoD).

He had more of a red/black mixture. Whatever hit the Arbiter was far more clearly on the red side, with some whitish highlights. It actually fits neither Argus nor Revendreth based on that, which only makes things more confusing. Xavius is a bit questionable on the timing.

I somewhat doubt it's just a soul being beyond the Arbiter's ability to handle, though. It looks far more like somebody deliberately threw an aimed attack at her.
Outside of Denathrius, i'm not sure who could even do that and also have a motive to.

[Traveler Voltin]

titans dont go to the shadowlands.

[Depakote]

Is it confirmed? i mean, it could be her or Eonar, not biological sisters, more like "nature-lovin' hippie sisters"

The Winter Queen is part of the Death Pantheon we've heard rumors about. Eonar is likely her sister yes.

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Did they not imprison Naaru when light attacked Revendreth?

Also few of Il'gynoths whispers are interesting:
Five keys to open our way. Five torches to light our path. (Covenants+Arbiter?)
Five lanterns now darkened. The flames they seek will light the Masters' way. (Again?)
At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming (Sylvanas as raid boss confirmed?)
The vassal of life disguises treachery. Beware the eyes of green. (Ysera in shadowlands?)

Also, the thing that broke Arbiter was red so its either something from Revendreth or, hear me out, Xavius. If the Jailer made a deal with Void, Xaviuses death could have triggered Arbiters sleep/power off. Call it nightmare powers or stuff.

the 5 keys to open the path were the keys of creation
Don't know the second.
Sylvannas is a obvious yes
Ysera has blue eyes in Ardernweald.
As for the red thing that broke the Arbiter it was Sargeras' sword when he stabbed Azeroth. That much is easy to figure out.

[shoc]

Argus was the last boss of Legion and if there's one thing we know, final boss battles have future implications. I highly doubt Argus is a one-and-done raid character that we see very briefly and then never again. Argus' redemption could be a significant plot point, he is a full-fledged Titan after all. He'd be among the Pantheon if Sargeras didn't break him.

I think its pretty obvi Argus is the soul that broke the Arbiter. Sargeras had turned Argus into a resurrection engine, a machine of death, maybe the life and experiences of billions of demons was imprinted on Argus' soul that was way too much to process.

The timing is right, the color is identical, and Argus is the only who died during Legion with a power level high enough to break the afterlife.

Maybe Argus' Titan soul was so corrupted by Disorder it got straight up denied entry to the Titan/Order afterlife and got bounced to the Shadowlands.

Xavius is so irrelevant a character in comparison it hurts.

[Pum]

Pretty sure there was a cutscene where they referred to the Primus and Denathrius as brothers too, so maybe they're just fellow "Eternal Ones" which would make Elune an "Eternal One" as well. We still need to find out what Eternal Ones are and where they came from, but they seem to be lords of death in the Shadowlands.

And I wish people would stop saying Eonar is Elune, they're absolutely nothing alike in any way, Elune is NOT a nature goddess, she is literally a death goddess. People would know this if they've been paying any attention to any questline or dialog or location tied to Elune in any way. She empowers warriors to fight better, most quests involving Elune are either related to WAR or communing with spirits, her own temple on the Broken Shore is filled with spirits of ancient worshippers (and literal ghost statues). Biggest clue however is when Ysera died, and Elune showed her power to eclipse the sun and directly claim the spirit of Ysera in front of our very eyes (and then dump that spirit on her "sister's" front yard with a note that says "rez plz thx".)

Elune is a goddess of war and spirits and death, and Tyrande is now an embodiment of Elune's power and fury, going all doomslayer in the maw.

Your logic doesn't make sense. How would Ursoc go straight to Ardenweald without Elune's help then, but Ysera apparently needed it? It seems to me that all Ancients of Azeroth, or any 'child of the dream', automatically goes to Ardenweald and eventually return once they've undergone their cycle of rebirth.

This is why the Winter Queen's 'sister' is likely Eonar. Eonar empowered Freya, Freya created the Dream, and Eonar empowered Ysera for her to protect it. All of the demigods/Ancients on Azeroth are there to protect the world soul and all have a connection to the Dream.
Edit: Also, the Shadowlands couldn't be any more ordered if it tried, it obviously has Titan hands written all over it.

Your assessment of Elune is also most likely incorrect. Part of the point of Elune empowering Tyrande is showing that she/it has a dark side. This gives more credence to Elune being either the creator of the Naaru, who have a light/void lifecycle (I'm not saying she is in the void stage, I'm saying she's such a powerful entity she can use both aspects), or a Light Lord, an opposite of the Void Lords. Chronicles was pretty clear that Light and Void go hand in hand, so her being either one of these is plausible. Also, Elune made a Night Warrior on another planet that was being attacked by an Old God (who are sent by the Void Lords), which allowed them to defeat it. We don't seem to know anything about this planet, but it could be possible it contained a world soul, hence Elune having a presence around it. I have heard the theory that Elune might be spread vastly throughout the cosmos watching over world souls, which is why her full power can't be entirely used for a single planet, though Azeroth is the most important one.

Elune just being a goddess of war is much too boring an explanation and she has been hyped far too much for far too long to be something so rudimentary. She is Warcraft's only true god, sword and board can't be her only forte.

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As for the red thing that broke the Arbiter it was Sargeras' sword when he stabbed Azeroth. That much is easy to figure out.

Why would that break the Arbiter? Azeroth is still a latent world soul, and the stab didn't even kill it, so how would that break the Arbiter?

Argus has been tooted to be the Titan of Death, and Argus uncorrupted is red, so it seems like that big red bolt flying into the Arbiter was him.

[For_The_Horde]

Your logic doesn't make sense. How would Ursoc go straight to Ardenweald without Elune's help then, but Ysera apparently needed it? It seems to me that all Ancients of Azeroth, or any 'child of the dream', automatically goes to Ardenweald and eventually return once they've undergone their cycle of rebirth.

This is why the Winter Queen's 'sister' is likely Eonar. Eonar empowered Freya, Freya created the Dream, and Eonar empowered Ysera for her to protect it. All of the demigods/Ancients on Azeroth are there to protect the world soul and all have a connection to the Dream.
Edit: Also, the Shadowlands couldn't be any more ordered if it tried, it obviously has Titan hands written all over it.

Your assessment of Elune is also most likely incorrect. Part of the point of Elune empowering Tyrande is showing that she/it has a dark side. This gives more credence to Elune being either the creator of the Naaru, who have a light/void lifecycle (I'm not saying she is in the void stage, I'm saying she's such a powerful entity she can use both aspects), or a Light Lord, an opposite of the Void Lords. Chronicles was pretty clear that Light and Void go hand in hand, so her being either one of these is plausible. Also, Elune made a Night Warrior on another planet that was being attacked by an Old God (who are sent by the Void Lords), which allowed them to defeat it. We don't seem to know anything about this planet, but it could be possible it contained a world soul, hence Elune having a presence around it. I have heard the theory that Elune might be spread vastly throughout the cosmos watching over world souls, which is why her full power can't be entirely used for a single planet, though Azeroth is the most important one.

Elune just being a goddess of war is much too boring an explanation and she has been hyped far too much for far too long to be something so rudimentary. She is Warcraft's only true god, sword and board can't be her only forte.

Ursoc served the wilds, not Elune, Elune has almost nothing to do with the wild gods or the emerald dream. Those that serve the wilds faithfully enough get sent to Ardenweald to be reborn again (to serve the wilds). Eonar is a Titan, who before anything and everything else serves the forces of Order. Elune is a force of tranquility and war, not nature, and her actions and followers seem to be more than willing to use chaos and destruction to bring about peace. The most nature related thing she's ever done is bang a deer, and then poped out a kid which she left in the care of a dragon-nanny. Cenarius isn't half Titan, he is certainly half deer, and he's also the first druid. Druids are masters of nature, cycle of life, meaning life AND death (did somebody wonder how the Drust fit into the Shadowlands?).

Lets take a look at some of the artifacts related to Elune
Cup of Elune - allows one to see the spirits of ancient elves
Elune's Handmaiden - enemies' weapons were to be cast upon the basin in exchange for a divine gift as part of the Ritual of War.
Elune's Brazier - performing sacrifices. A blessing is bestowed upon the being who places the flesh of Elune's enemies on the brazier's burning embers as part of a sacrificial offering.
Ancient Vortex Runestone - gems created by it were claimed to be gifts from the goddess herself. The monument's gemstones were imbued with the power to summon a firestorm.

She also actively grants boons, healing, rains down astral destruction, visions, and immortality (sometimes invincibility). No Titan does these things for mortals, no Titan was even capable of doing these things because they were being stomped into the ground by Sargeras for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. Also Tyrande is being actively empowered by Elune right now, and Eonar is still likely weakened and using all her strength to hold back Sargeras. She doesn't have the power to lend to a mortal being for revenge, even if she wanted to.

Elune's power seems to revolve around being able to sooth, harm, and/or empower spirits, which is entirely unrelated to anything we've ever heard of when it comes to Titan abilities. The closest thing I can think of is Odyn's gambit to use (inspired by a deal with Mueh'zala) some kind of spirit power even he doesn't understand to allow him (or rather his Valkyr aka Kyrian knockoffs) the ability to resurrect the dead (to serve him as defenders).

There is more to Elune we don't know about, and since she has such a vested interest in Azeroth (plus the whole night warrior thing) its entirely probable we'll see some actual explanations about Elune in the near future since the Jailer sounds like he want's to claim Azeroth's worldsoul for his own ends.

[Addiena]

Pretty sure there was a cutscene where they referred to the Primus and Denathrius as brothers too, so maybe they're just fellow "Eternal Ones" which would make Elune an "Eternal One" as well. We still need to find out what Eternal Ones are and where they came from, but they seem to be lords of death in the Shadowlands.

And I wish people would stop saying Eonar is Elune, they're absolutely nothing alike in any way, Elune is NOT a nature goddess, she is literally a death goddess. People would know this if they've been paying any attention to any questline or dialog or location tied to Elune in any way. She empowers warriors to fight better, most quests involving Elune are either related to WAR or communing with spirits, her own temple on the Broken Shore is filled with spirits of ancient worshippers (and literal ghost statues). Biggest clue however is when Ysera died, and Elune showed her power to eclipse the sun and directly claim the spirit of Ysera in front of our very eyes (and then dump that spirit on her "sister's" front yard with a note that says "rez plz thx".)

Elune is a goddess of war and spirits and death, and Tyrande is now an embodiment of Elune's power and fury, going all doomslayer in the maw.

What if Elune is the Arbiter, it would explain why she has gone silent and has withdrawn from helping the Night Elves.

[For_The_Horde]

What if Elune is the Arbiter, it would explain why she has gone silent and has withdrawn from helping the Night Elves.

I doubt the Arbiter would have so much inherent bias, what with so many mortal worshippers and directly dealing punishment to enemies, Arbiter just judges things. Elune does seem have dropped the ball recently, but she too could be affected by the anima drought. Maybe the best she can muster is to empower Tyrande into becoming the MAWSLAYER.

[Addiena]

I doubt the Arbiter would have so much inherent bias, what with so many mortal worshippers and directly dealing punishment to enemies, Arbiter just judges things. Elune does seem have dropped the ball recently, but she too could be affected by the anima drought. Maybe the best she can muster is to empower Tyrande into becoming the MAWSLAYER.

I have this feeling that we might have to kill Tyrande or at some point Stop her.

[For_The_Horde]

I have this feeling that we might have to kill Tyrande or at some point Stop her.

Oh most likely, if only Illidan was still around to talk her down from her path of vengeance. We'll probably get some help though from Malfurion, Ysera, and maybe even the winter queen.

[Tinary]

Still tho, if the Argus soul is what caused the Arbiter to shut down, how is Denathrius responsible of the draught? Maybe the bolt is sent by him. Altho there could be a connection with dreadlords and legion and that their original plan was to corrupt a titan and slay it to kill Arbiter but that is a long long process and seems a bit pointless.

[shoc]

Still tho, if the Argus soul is what caused the Arbiter to shut down, how is Denathrius responsible of the draught? Maybe the bolt is sent by him. Altho there could be a connection with dreadlords and legion and that their original plan was to corrupt a titan and slay it to kill Arbiter but that is a long long process and seems a bit pointless.

It could have just been the window of opportunity the

The drought was happening for many years before all the souls started going to the Maw. Denathrius was hoarding anima and scheming with the Jailer long before the Jailer started receiving 100% of souls.

I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say the Nathrezim were responsible for the construction of Antorus, with the ulterior motive of creating a soul so corrupted it would knock the Arbiter out of business when it came through. It would be totally consistent with what we know about them merely tolerating Fel and infiltrating the Legion but ultimately serving the Jailer.

If the plan was to secretly stockpile power, disable the Arbiter and then wage a coup on the afterlife, that sounds plausible to me.