Heroic dungeons are bloat

[exsanguinate]

Same like raiding. Remove heroic and keep it lfr - normal - mythic

[cparle87]

No, I am talking about dungeons and adding raids to the scenario as well. Both fit the exast same thing.



Just because the OP started with dungeons doesn't mean the scope can't be limited to that topic only.



I'm not speaking for myself. I'm speaking based on what the majority has spoken and shown in-game. If you are too look at data the amount of people doing normal dungeons (that aren't leveling) is very likely miniscule. Heroics are probably somewhat higher, but not by much as most only run it because they have to in order to get into Mythic dungeons when this step can be skipped altogether.

Secondly, raids fit the same scenario most will skip normal and go straight to heroic where possible.



You are right. No one knows exactly except for Blizzard. However, there are likely sites that track some of this data and you can read other people's replies and see this in-game based on times and such.



The only reason people would have to "feel forced to run older content" is due to trinkets. Most people aren't going to run old raids for a piece of gear that the new area drops. Secondly all they have to do is bump WQ rewards up to what the previous Normal/Heroic raid was so the only upgrade would be from Mythic.

Next people already don't feel like most of their progress is meaningful because in the following patches Blizzard just updates the mobs to scale higher.

You were talking about heroic becoming normal, that was a raid thing. If you want to talk about raids make a thread, this is talking about the existence of heroic dungeons.

There are millions upon millions of players. Every MMO-Champs poster could post here and agree with you and it'd still be like 1%.

You admit Blizz has the info and you don't, claim there "likely" sites that track this, and return to "other people agree with me so I'm right."

That's enough reason. Guilds doing mythic NH progression were still doing EN, and hating every minute of it, for trinkets. Haven't you noticed yet that if something will give someone power they will feel forced to do it, even if they hate every minute of it. Reducing the ilvl spread across tiers would exacerbate this. And are you actually calling for WQs to give heroic raid level gear?

So which would you prefer? They don't make dungeons scale each patch and they become obsolete content like they were up until Legion? Or having more content to do?

[Malania]

Normals are the equivalent to old style max level dungeons, because they scale. Heroics are this extra thing that is thrown in, that doesn’t need to exist.

Not in difficulty. Blizzard stated heroic was old normal equivalent.

[MrLachyG]

Not in difficulty. Blizzard stated heroic was old normal equivalent.

Isn’t that raids, not dungeons

[Malania]

Isn’t that raids, not dungeons

No, the entire system was redone to balance around heroics as normal and mythics as heroics.

[loras]

No reason for the tier to exist. It's redundant with normal.

They should remove it and make it Normal -> Mythic. Allow the ability to que for Mythic +0 and take with it the mechanics and difficulty.

LFG should remain for Mythic keystones.

What do you think?

Frankly the whole four way split is a bit excessive, in raids it's similar.

I mean LFG-tool stuff i can understand, for content-tourists, training for learning players and a fallback for outright bad players.

Mythic is for good players, minmaxers and such (and imo it should just drop the same quality of gear as the level below so as to keep its challenge intact and allow for finer tuning, while simultanously curtailing statbloat).

But then there's normal and heroic / which are a bit redundant which eachother and mostly seem to serve to increase replay time by the grace of increasing the item level "distance" from what is required for mythic.

[Lanesra]

Wait, werent normal dungeons for quests and a few items during leveling, hc when you hit maxlvl and mythic / m+ as endgame options?

[Drusin]

Doesn’t make sense for there to be an arbitrary ilvl jump at 60 for normal gear just to get higher numbers.

They are gonna do that anyways, next tier comes out and ilvl is going to jump to 300

[Biomega]

Here's the very simple thing about this: having heroics around basically costs them nothing. So what if the target audience isn't huge - it's not like it's taking away from other audiences. Having heroic doesn't mean you're losing out on something else. It's just an extra difficulty in there for the people that want a step in between normal and mythic. The normal people can ignore it; the mythic people can ignore it; and neither will see any impact on their game whatsoever.

[DonChalk]

100% Disagree.

The gap of power and skill required for normal to mythic is pretty substantial for the average player.

What value do players gain by removing a difficult level?

What justification is there to have a 30ilvl difference in gear between two points?

LFG exists for normal and heroic.

Group Finder is fine for mythics.

What's broken here, that you're fixing?

100% agree with this. There's no added benefit to removing it. The people who run it will continue to use it and don't impact the game of the people who don't.

[Shedaar]

100% Disagree.

The gap of power and skill required for normal to mythic is pretty substantial for the average player.

What value do players gain by removing a difficult level?

What justification is there to have a 30ilvl difference in gear between two points?

LFG exists for normal and heroic.

Group Finder is fine for mythics.

What's broken here, that you're fixing?

I agree /chars

[Mojo03]

Wait, werent normal dungeons for quests and a few items during leveling, hc when you hit maxlvl and mythic / m+ as endgame options?

Scaling made it so normal can easily be max level dungeons.

Heroic is fundamentally the same thing as these scaled 60 dungeons, which is why they’re bloat.

Mythic is fundamentally a bit different and after a month of an expansion becomes the base dungeons people do.

Keystones are also fundamentally different with timers and affixes.

[Cyram]

Eh, if I queue for heroics I expect people to be 60, with the power spike that being 60 means. I wouldn't want to run normal dungeons as my only choice at doing WQs or whatever and having to go with people who are levelling or whatever.
I say keep it as is.

[Azaile-]

I say scrap 2 of em. Heroic is the only one we need. Id much rather not be able to run them while leveling knowing i would need to farm them later. up the difficulty a bit include the mythic moveset, there hasnt been anything in mythic that couldnt be handled by people running heroics if its tuned correctly. People were running mythic as soon as they hit 60 already this xpac. Gorfied heroics, thats all they are.

[Jujudrood]

I disagree.
It's part of the progression path for those who won't be chaining M+ or raiding at any level above LFR.
Why would we want to reduce the content that casual non-organized players consume, regardless of its redundancy (everything in WoW is redundant, it's a staple of an MMO to do the same things over and over)?

Making Mythic the new "heroic" in terms fo LFD tool wouldn't be a good idea because those people who cap at Heroic/WQs/LFR today wouldn't necessarily be equipped for the mechanics of a Mythic dungeon.
There's a few bosses that do "something different" from Normal I can think of that would be hell for a casual LFD person (last boss of ToP, especially).
Maybe you say "tune down the damage", but then it makes the dungeon more trivial thus making Mythic0 trivial as a difficulty and ultimately pointless, according to the currently deployed logic, so it should also be removed.
At the end of this rabbit hole, we would end up with Dungeon (no difficulties, just is what it is), Raid (no difficulties, just is what it is), and that's that.
We had that before (and even have it today, in Classic), and it was (and is) godawful boring.

It's fine as is, it's a minor inconvenience for M+ and raiders for about 1 week every 2 years, and it works as it is today.

[Schizoide]

I would like to see queuing for mythic+0 for sure. They aren't much more difficult than heroic and no keys or anything required.

[rrayy]

Heroic and normal are literally the same thing. With SLIGHTLY different tuning due to ilvl requirements.

Heroic does not need to exist. It's arbitrary.

No they are not. You are naive if you think it is only that. I have a better idea. You simply avoid Heroic since you don't like it and let those that do play it. Stop trying to remove content when you can avoid it.

[Skorpionss]

So....they are different, but LITERALLY the same? What are you trying to say here?

If you are trying to say that a normal @ intended ilvl is not much different than a heroic @ intended ilvl, then things are working as intended, just like all other content.

They are the same mechanically, just that mobs have a bit higher HP and damage, compared to M0 that also has added mechanics for each boss encounter.

As for OP, Don't remove heroics entirely. Keep Normals for leveling, heroic and m0 for max level.

[arkanon]

As for OP, Don't remove heroics entirely. Keep Normals for leveling, heroic and m0 for max level.

So....exactly how it is now?

[Skorpionss]

So....exactly how it is now?

no, because right now you still need normals to gear yourself before you can enter heroics. I mean when you ding 60, normals are no longer an option, you can either queue for Heroics or M0.