Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varodoc]

they didn't have the Ashbringer that time I'd think Liadrin returned it to them after Legion

and yes, Eastweald deserves to be Horde since it is Lordaeron territory, and so Quel'lithien deserves to be brought back to Quel'thalas

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Eldre'thalas would be a very nice stronghold for Highborne and High Elves, that's enough for Alliance

Eastweald doesn't "deserve" anything. Have you forgotten that many former Lordaeron citizens are in the Alliance?

As for Ashbringer, it's powerless now. Remember that these artifact toys were drained of their power to remove the corruption seeping from the sword of Sargeras.

[Ardenaso]

Have you forgotten that many former Lordaeron citizens are in the Alliance?

I thought they returned to Hearthglen after Tirion reclaimed it from the Scarlet Crusade; I'm thinking the same for Tyr's Hand

[Ielenia]

show claims of the people of Silvermoon or else you are full of crap.

Back before Cataclysm, you'd see on the streets blood elves speaking to a crowd about how joining the Horde was a mistake, that they should be with the Alliance. Eventually a blood elf priest is summoned to mind-control the dissidents, and there is the implication that this is not the first time this happens.

[ravenmoon]

some horde players did ask. both alliance and horde did want playable nightborne. i saw a few threads on both sides.

Indeed, both did. Reddit responders were largely horde, any alliance asking for Nightborne were told they fit the horde a b/s argument ofc, and on reddit, they dont read more than 2 lines, so thorough cross examination or challenge fell on deaf ears and was often drowned out quickly. Horde elf fanbase operates strongly on reddit for those where these things matter

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i have learned that people really dont care about the night elves and high/void elves. they just want to take horde stuff and use it as a half assed excuse

Well, the amount of lore posts on high elves, night elves beg to differ, the vast majority from alliance fans, especially regarding night elves and nightborne.

Ofc when allinace fans talk about high elves, and dare to express a wish of having them playable, horde elf fans swarm topics attempting to convince them how absurd their desires or wishes are, and how ridiculous and impossible such a thing it.

I have been around since these discussions started you know, you only need read through this topic to confirm this.

And yet a horde elf fan comes on making claims about alliance taking horde stuff.. it's so laughable, fully aware the very stuff in question is actually alliance stuff. It is the high elf kingdom, and the high elf race that were loaned to the horde to boost it's numbers, they don't belong to the horde, and they are alliance that is on the horde. No longer necessary too, as the horde doesn't need anything more than the models accessible. The rest of the stuff, territories, assets, lore/narrative population can all return to the alliance who needs them to potentially draw some of those horde lf fans back and increase the allinace numbers to match the horde's at the most passionate level of the game.

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Since blood elves, void elves and high elves are also in the Alliance, that's not just Horde stuff

Void elves in particular, still do consider Quel'Thalas as their homeland. Time for some Horde players to recognize it.

All hints point towards Silvermoon assaulted by the Alliance, Alleria and the void elves. And with Turalyon - supported by Alleria- wanting to reclaim former Alliance holdings...

Exactly, he's talking about the alliance stuff that's on the horde, none of us are convinced. We all know everything that's blood elven in Quel'thalas is alliance stuff on the horde.

I remember the many topics and many essays Mace and I write on Night elves Nightborne, high elves and their lore, I know horde fans do not share the enthusiasm over the Nightborne and Night elves.. I admit they do over the blood elf version of the high elves. When we talk about high elves it quickly descends either back to blood elven developments or many page long fights of horde elf fans trying to dissuade alliance fans from desiring high elves. They just crap all over high elf appearances and characters.. they offer nothing constructive but irrational hate filled nonsense.

Remember Alleria's return? They were enthusiastic about her, then because she arrived alliance centric - the hate just poured in on how terrible everything was.
Whether it was the Allerian stronghold, the Silver Covenant, Vereesa, any involvement of high elves is criticised - by whom.

Anything, anything in favour of the alliance with elves.. whether it's high elves, or even night elves - anything that takes any spotlight from the horde side. Regardless, doesn't matter if it's asking for the model to be playable, or a different version of it - the very existence of high elves is despised because they don't want the alliance and the high elves becoming a thing. They love that blizzard gave the horde better humans. The heartbeat and best iteration of the alliance is actually horde - they love that, revel in it, the superiority and bragging rights and scorn they can have over alliance fans.

It doesn't matter if you are reasonable or ridiculous in what you request, or what you desire, it doesn't matter to them, it will be opposed. you have nearly 1,200 pages on this thread proving it. They will oppose it.

Here I come, identifying what I am certain is the part of the massive problem with the factions that can solve the alliance problems both in lore and gameplay population and the horde as well. It doesn't hurt the horde, in fact the benefit is greater when you think that Troll/Orcs/Goblins/Tauren and even forsaken would get increases replacing the lost blood elven and Nightborne assets and restoring the core identity .. just by the prominence of the very alliance blood elven and Nightborne their being severely reduced and them being re-established on the alliance.

It will work, it is the solution, but regardless of whatever we say, suggest, desire, want - regardless of how perfect, good, ordinary, bad or very bad, as long as it is pereceived to somehow benefit the alliance with elves - they will always oppose and deny it.

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just because they want it doesnt mean they are going to get it.

its always demands with alliance players. they can never build on their own land they need to try and take horde things.

I'm sure you see the irony over blood elves and Nightborne here.

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Eldre'thalas would be a very nice stronghold for Highborne and High Elves, that's enough for Alliance

Please tell me why the 7,000 year old established and traditional home of the High elves, friends, co-founders and greatest influencers of the human race, isn't enough or suitable for the alliance?

Or the original home of the majority of the Darnassians, the city many of them came from and most deeply tied ot them in their lore and the majority of it's occupants aren't suitable or fitting for the alliance they basically embody in every thing but name?

Surely you should be challenging the horde retaining so much alliance visibility, people and characteristics which is all the blood elves and Nightborne are. Surely the franchise, it's lore and it's core faction theme is better served by the blood elves in Quel'thalas returning as high elves to the alliance. And the Nightborne in Suramar ultimately bonding strongly with their Highborne kin, kaldorei, high elven, void elven, like minded human, gnomes and Draenei all on the alliance from which this kaldorei civilization is basically the oldest and most advanced version of the civilization humanity and the alliance is built upon.

Why on earth is it on the horde? And now it is, why is it remaining there? It needs to return, and it will be better served.

[Traveler Voltin]

Eastweald doesn't "deserve" anything. Have you forgotten that many former Lordaeron citizens are in the Alliance?

As for Ashbringer, it's powerless now. Remember that these artifact toys were drained of their power to remove the corruption seeping from the sword of Sargeras.

i doubt there are many living lordaeron people left. the largest settlement of them is currently a magic crater.

[Ardenaso]

i doubt there are many living lordaeron people left. the largest settlement of them is currently a magic crater.

There's still neutral Lordaeronians in Hearthglen; the Alliance Lordaeronians are only a small handful left after the last settlements were raided in Southshore, Hillsbrad, Ambermill, and Pyrewood and the civilian refugees were hunted down to death in Fenris Isle

[elbleuet]

I would have gladly accepted Dalaran as the capital of High elves but you know, this kingdom is currently lolneutral because the Horde don't have any capital of magic to settle in... oh wait.

But it would have been nice indeed.

[Rhlor]

I would have gladly accepted Dalaran as the capital of High elves but you know, this kingdom is currently lolneutral because the Horde don't have any capital of magic to settle in... oh wait.

But it would have been nice indeed.

everyone in the horde wanted our own city in legion instead of dalaran. but blizzard is very lazy.

[Valandale]

I don't even get this current flame war, the blood elves are high elves who forsook their old name to honor the fallen, the High Elves that remained with the Alliance didn't see the point. At this point Quel'thalas is lost, the High Elves don't need the Sunwell like they used to and as long as Quel' danas remains neutral they can still make pilgrimages there. They should just found a new nation, there is no one in the line of Sunstrider alive to have any loyalty to, unless they bring back that WC3 Eldin character. In any case, the Blood Elves just can't be reconciled with at the moment, and until blizzard bothers getting rid of the shitty Alliance v. Horde story or manages to make it actually mean something, it's pointless. Conveniently in BfA there were lots of islands that had expeditions to them that could be settled by varying exiled/homeless/newly enfranchised races. It'd be nice for something to come out of that waste of development. If we can call those developed in any sense of the word. Build up all the races instead of leaving them constantly refugeed in other cities for several expansions. Take a break from war and destruction and actually rebuild the World of Warcraft.

Nightborne going horde was unexpected due to the dual faction input, but like void elves, they seem to have been a rush/half baked job by blizzard, and while void elves eventually got more attention, the nightborne have been left in the dust. Besides, them being hypocrites and betraying the Night Elves is in fact, ancient history, they betrayed them during the War of the Ancients and betrayed them again to then march on their homeland. The Nightborne are all about self-preservation and isolation so they didn't want any overtures of influence coming from Darnassus in all likelihood, since a the time the Night Elves outnumbered and controlled a great deal more of Elvish civilization, (they probably still do). But the storytelling blizzard did was freaking awful and had zero nuance or exposition. "The Alliance likes to wash out other cultures!" despite the fact the Dwarves, Draenei and Night elves have much stronger racial identities than trolls or tauren in the horde. It's all spikes. At least in the alliance you can tell when it's a dwarf forge/cannon tower or elvish/draenic settlement.

Most of the issues just get get traced back to Blizzard not bothering to tell a decent story or give appropriate details. All of the reasoning behind the splits of the High Elves/Blood Elves could be explained better, but it's just not really looked into by the writers. Same can be said for why the Nightborne chose a war mongering faction to join despite just barely surviving a Burning Legion occupation and then civil war.

[Beloren]

I don't even get this current flame war, the blood elves are high elves who forsook their old name to honor the fallen, the High Elves that remained with the Alliance didn't see the point. At this point Quel'thalas is lost, the High Elves don't need the Sunwell like they used to and as long as Quel' danas remains neutral they can still make pilgrimages there. They should just found a new nation, there is no one in the line of Sunstrider alive to have any loyalty to, unless they bring back that WC3 Eldin character. In any case, the Blood Elves just can't be reconciled with at the moment, and until blizzard bothers getting rid of the shitty Alliance v. Horde story or manages to make it actually mean something, it's pointless. Conveniently in BfA there were lots of islands that had expeditions to them that could be settled by varying exiled/homeless/newly enfranchised races. It'd be nice for something to come out of that waste of development. If we can call those developed in any sense of the word. Build up all the races instead of leaving them constantly refugeed in other cities for several expansions. Take a break from war and destruction and actually rebuild the World of Warcraft.

Nightborne going horde was unexpected due to the dual faction input, but like void elves, they seem to have been a rush/half baked job by blizzard, and while void elves eventually got more attention, the nightborne have been left in the dust. Besides, them being hypocrites and betraying the Night Elves is in fact, ancient history, they betrayed them during the War of the Ancients and betrayed them again to then march on their homeland. The Nightborne are all about self-preservation and isolation so they didn't want any overtures of influence coming from Darnassus in all likelihood, since a the time the Night Elves outnumbered and controlled a great deal more of Elvish civilization, (they probably still do). But the storytelling blizzard did was freaking awful and had zero nuance or exposition. "The Alliance likes to wash out other cultures!" despite the fact the Dwarves, Draenei and Night elves have much stronger racial identities than trolls or tauren in the horde. It's all spikes. At least in the alliance you can tell when it's a dwarf forge/cannon tower or elvish/draenic settlement.

Most of the issues just get get traced back to Blizzard not bothering to tell a decent story or give appropriate details. All of the reasoning behind the splits of the High Elves/Blood Elves could be explained better, but it's just not really looked into by the writers. Same can be said for why the Nightborne chose a war mongering faction to join despite just barely surviving a Burning Legion occupation and then civil war.

Probably because the motivations for such faction changes were never because of story or lore, but for evening out player numbers.

As such it wasn’t a high priority to dedicate more resources to telling a compelling story because such doesn’t really matter either.

I pose these questions to the detractors.

So what if there are alliance races on the horde?
So what if it is the best of the alliance on the horde?
So what if the identity of the horde has been altered because of it?

Blizzard were fully aware of what they were doing, what it meant and still did it.

They obviously don’t quite put the same value on integrity, identity, consistency etc of factions, races or their story as you fans do.

Game systems, playability, functionality, eye candy etc are all higher priority.

Why any of this surprises any of you who have seen proof over and over again is beyond me.

Equally as silly is fighting each other over something it’s creators barely care about. Especially since you all clearly love the same things and the same racial groups. It’s silly.

High elves and night elves will surely rise in prominence on the alliance, it’s already happening and their is great popular demand for it , that is clear.

Yet at the same time it is highly unlikely Silvermoon or Suramar are going anywhere either - it just seems rather unnecessary to happen and I don’t think they care enough to make that sorta change. For any of the reasons promoted here.

They are more likely to build the night elves a mega New Zin’Azshari and a cool void elf city than transfer Silvermoon and Suramar to the alliance.

The most likely scenario is you will see no infrastructure changes or cities etc, you’ll just see Night elves and void elves as well as high elves play bigger roles in the alliance and be very bad ass.

If I were in blizzard, 10.0 would have a badass amazing elven city alliance elves can call home, linked to the void and the stars touching both the Kaldorei and ren’dorei with quel’dorei ordering carried out by Highborne and high elves. Basically they all play a role. And that’s it.

1 city, cool enough to make you really happy. and feel good, no more.

[Linkedblade]

Probably because the motivations for such faction changes were never because of story or lore, but for evening out player numbers.

As such it wasn’t a high priority to dedicate more resources to telling a compelling story because such doesn’t really matter either.

I pose these questions to the detractors.

So what if there are alliance races on the horde?
So what if it is the best of the alliance on the horde?
So what if the identity of the horde has been altered because of it?

Blizzard were fully aware of what they were doing, what it meant and still did it.

They obviously don’t quite put the same value on integrity, identity, consistency etc of factions, races or their story as you fans do.

Game systems, playability, functionality, eye candy etc are all higher priority.

Why any of this surprises any of you who have seen proof over and over again is beyond me.

Equally as silly is fighting each other over something it’s creators barely care about. Especially since you all clearly love the same things and the same racial groups. It’s silly.

High elves and night elves will surely rise in prominence on the alliance, it’s already happening and their is great popular demand for it , that is clear.

Yet at the same time it is highly unlikely Silvermoon or Suramar are going anywhere either - it just seems rather unnecessary to happen and I don’t think they care enough to make that sorta change. For any of the reasons promoted here.

They are more likely to build the night elves a mega New Zin’Azshari and a cool void elf city than transfer Silvermoon and Suramar to the alliance.

The most likely scenario is you will see no infrastructure changes or cities etc, you’ll just see Night elves and void elves as well as high elves play bigger roles in the alliance and be very bad ass.

If I were in blizzard, 10.0 would have a badass amazing elven city alliance elves can call home, linked to the void and the stars touching both the Kaldorei and ren’dorei with quel’dorei ordering carried out by Highborne and high elves. Basically they all play a role. And that’s it.

1 city, cool enough to make you really happy. and feel good, no more.

I don't think it matters which race are on which faction, or even if the factions matter at all at this point.

A lot of my personal reason for playable actual high elves on alliance is because of the Warcraft 2 alliance races. And the only missing races from War2 are High Elves and Ogres.

In that same reasoning we had an Orc clan side with the Alliance and a Human nation side with the Horde. Ever since then we have had races play both sides and neutral groups of all racial compositions. It really is not a problem. Any lore issue can be chalked up to an asspull, as we've seen with almost all the allied races.

Just give the alliance an icon on the character creation screen for the main races. Have it give a flavored bit of High Elf info. Copy and paste the template from Void Elves, less the void-y bits. And voila.

I hope the next expansion we revisit the changes that occur on Azeroth during our time in the Shadowlands.

[Rhlor]

A lot of my personal reason for playable actual high elves on alliance is because of the Warcraft 2 alliance races. And the only missing races from War2 are High Elves and Ogres.

forest trolls

[ravenmoon]

I don't think it matters which race are on which faction, or even if the factions matter at all at this point.

A lot of my personal reason for playable actual high elves on alliance is because of the Warcraft 2 alliance races. And the only missing races from War2 are High Elves and Ogres.

In that same reasoning we had an Orc clan side with the Alliance and a Human nation side with the Horde. Ever since then we have had races play both sides and neutral groups of all racial compositions. It really is not a problem. Any lore issue can be chalked up to an asspull, as we've seen with almost all the allied races.

Just give the alliance an icon on the character creation screen for the main races. Have it give a flavored bit of High Elf info. Copy and paste the template from Void Elves, less the void-y bits. And voila.

I hope the next expansion we revisit the changes that occur on Azeroth during our time in the Shadowlands.

Your observation is correct, but until the blood elves, such faction alignment swaps were temporary for specific story elements, they didn't alter the fabric of the horde or alliance by their collaboration or presence on the enemy faction.

This is what has changed to detrimental affect by keeping the heart of the high elves and the kaldorei civilization on the horde. These are problematic to the faction identity.

And I disagree with the poster that it isn't relevant. It is quite, and if they can't value or see the importance, they'll be operating crippled almost. It's an irrational obsession to change so much just to keep blood elves and night born on the horde, when they don't really belong there and never did, and have served their purpose in boosting the popularity of the faction.

Now the nice things of the horde should come from horde races like Trolls (as we saw in Zuldazar) and can see in Zul'drak and rebuilt Zul'farak and Aman, as well as others like orcs, new Grommash City, Goblins - expanded Kezan, new Undermine, Tauren, and even forsaken having places like Icecrown Citadel.. meanwhile let the alliance races have their things, high elves have Silvermoon and Quel'thalas night elves have their kaldorei civilization - these things should not be on the horde, and aren't needed. To be honest the horde only needs the models playable, and that can happen with a remnant group of Nightborne and Blood elves - while the rest of the stuff returns tot he High elves and kaldorei - the reason why it has opposition here is because horde elf fans don't like that happening.

It's not based on logic, or sense or fact, you can't use those arguments here, they want those things staying on the horde so they can feel superior to the alliance, and have bragging rights. (but I won't deny a measure of attachment has grown too, but I'm not convinced it's for what the horde actually stands for, it's entirely based on the alliance because it's what is alliance about them is what they like, cos there isn't anything hordish about these elven groups.

However concerning attitudes I've noticed in some of these horde elf fans, it will be the same thing if blizzard does an even nice city for the night elves and high elves as well as void elves - they'd resent that too despite keeping Silvermoon and Suramar, I know how these people think.

Truth be told the best option is take Silvermoon and Suramar away back to the alliance and replace them on the horde with more troll, orc, goblin, forsaken themed cities, and have the remnant blood elves and Nightborne share with one of the horde races, or have a small camp or town of their own with the horde they love so much. Let the elves, an alliance thing, be primarily alliance, stop diluting the horde, and let the horde be what the horde was originally meant to be.

It will fix things fast.

They could off course later give the blood elves and Nightborne remnant even better cities - but they must not be elven, they can take over an alien races' city, but to give them better elven stuff would be re-inviting the same problem, boosting alliance concepts on the horde.

They could change the character and disposition of the blood elves and Nightborne to match the horde, and build these new mindset blood elves and Nightborne cities of their own, and make them great, as long as they different from kaldorei and high elven stuff sufficiently. They could look amazing, but they must be different, reflecting the change these races have undergone and offering something not tied to their alliance origins.

What my haters don't realise is that I'm really not horde hating, I'm fine with horde getting just as good as they've lost or even more, and for those elves to be something more, they just shouldn't be the alliance culture and civilization of the high elves and kaldorei that they have been. But @Rhlor and co just won't see what I'm trying to say, because they're offended and butt hurt at the idea of any losses to their precious elves, they are not willing to look at the broader spectrum and consider the bigger picture.

If you like blood elves and Nightborne as they are now, you really are liking High elves and Kaldorei civilization - these aren't horde races or concepts, but alliance ones, even though they're on the horde, you're not liking what the horde is or represents, this is why you're not satisfied with blizzard writing more aggressive roles for the horde or ones that fit the klingon-esque character of the orcs or the deadly insidious one of the forsaken or the trolls who can be quite vindictive and cruel as well as good and honourable - in a different world setting.

You like alliance stuff things, and have become comfortable with them existing amongst the horde races. This is not inconceivable ofc, it has already happened and most accept it.. however it is identity confusing and it is sub optimal, you really like alliance things. These things should be on the alliance, it's not good to have the best of the alliance on the horde. Therefore it needs to be changed. And the best way to do it is to take the alliance stuff back to it, and either leave a small enough amount of blood elves and Nightborne that they don't show up the horde races and/or transform them into something different , no longer high elven or kaldorei in character (not just name change or minor model changes), but something new, different, that can match the horde better or new enough to bring something interesting and have them build in a new way that is divorced from the kaldorei empire/civilisation and the Thalassian Kingdom of the High elves.

I really can't explain it better than this @Rhlor - if you can't understand me from this then I don't know what else to say.

[Rhlor]

Your observation is correct, but until the blood elves, such faction alignment swaps were temporary for specific story elements, they didn't alter the fabric of the horde or alliance by their collaboration or presence on the enemy faction.

This is what has changed to detrimental affect by keeping the heart of the high elves and the kaldorei civilization on the horde. These are problematic to the faction identity.

And I disagree with the poster that it isn't relevant. It is quite, and if they can't value or see the importance, they'll be operating crippled almost. It's an irrational obsession to change so much just to keep blood elves and night born on the horde, when they don't really belong there and never did, and have served their purpose in boosting the popularity of the faction.

Now the nice things of the horde should come from horde races like Trolls (as we saw in Zuldazar) and can see in Zul'drak and rebuilt Zul'farak and Aman, as well as others like orcs, new Grommash City, Goblins - expanded Kezan, new Undermine, Tauren, and even forsaken having places like Icecrown Citadel.. meanwhile let the alliance races have their things, high elves have Silvermoon and Quel'thalas night elves have their kaldorei civilization - these things should not be on the horde, and aren't needed. To be honest the horde only needs the models playable, and that can happen with a remnant group of Nightborne and Blood elves - while the rest of the stuff returns tot he High elves and kaldorei - the reason why it has opposition here is because horde elf fans don't like that happening.

It's not based on logic, or sense or fact, you can't use those arguments here, they want those things staying on the horde so they can feel superior to the alliance, and have bragging rights. (but I won't deny a measure of attachment has grown too, but I'm not convinced it's for what the horde actually stands for, it's entirely based on the alliance because it's what is alliance about them is what they like, cos there isn't anything hordish about these elven groups.

However concerning attitudes I've noticed in some of these horde elf fans, it will be the same thing if blizzard does an even nice city for the night elves and high elves as well as void elves - they'd resent that too despite keeping Silvermoon and Suramar, I know how these people think.

Truth be told the best option is take Silvermoon and Suramar away back to the alliance and replace them on the horde with more troll, orc, goblin, forsaken themed cities, and have the remnant blood elves and Nightborne share with one of the horde races, or have a small camp or town of their own with the horde they love so much. Let the elves, an alliance thing, be primarily alliance, stop diluting the horde, and let the horde be what the horde was originally meant to be.

It will fix things fast.

They could off course later give the blood elves and Nightborne remnant even better cities - but they must not be elven, they can take over an alien races' city, but to give them better elven stuff would be re-inviting the same problem, boosting alliance concepts on the horde.

They could change the character and disposition of the blood elves and Nightborne to match the horde, and build these new mindset blood elves and Nightborne cities of their own, and make them great, as long as they different from kaldorei and high elven stuff sufficiently. They could look amazing, but they must be different, reflecting the change these races have undergone and offering something not tied to their alliance origins.

What my haters don't realise is that I'm really not horde hating, I'm fine with horde getting just as good as they've lost or even more, and for those elves to be something more, they just shouldn't be the alliance culture and civilization of the high elves and kaldorei that they have been. But @Rhlor and co just won't see what I'm trying to say, because they're offended and butt hurt at the idea of any losses to their precious elves, they are not willing to look at the broader spectrum and consider the bigger picture.

If you like blood elves and Nightborne as they are now, you really are liking High elves and Kaldorei civilization - these aren't horde races or concepts, but alliance ones, even though they're on the horde, you're not liking what the horde is or represents, this is why you're not satisfied with blizzard writing more aggressive roles for the horde or ones that fit the klingon-esque character of the orcs or the deadly insidious one of the forsaken or the trolls who can be quite vindictive and cruel as well as good and honourable - in a different world setting.

You like alliance stuff things, and have become comfortable with them existing amongst the horde races. This is not inconceivable ofc, it has already happened and most accept it.. however it is identity confusing and it is sub optimal, you really like alliance things. These things should be on the alliance, it's not good to have the best of the alliance on the horde. Therefore it needs to be changed. And the best way to do it is to take the alliance stuff back to it, and either leave a small enough amount of blood elves and Nightborne that they don't show up the horde races and/or transform them into something different , no longer high elven or kaldorei in character (not just name change or minor model changes), but something new, different, that can match the horde better or new enough to bring something interesting and have them build in a new way that is divorced from the kaldorei empire/civilisation and the Thalassian Kingdom of the High elves.

I really can't explain it better than this @Rhlor - if you can't understand me from this then I don't know what else to say.

You named and since you mainly argue with me I suppose it is me when you mean that I do not want the elves of the alliance to get good things?

That is a lie, unlike you, I am consistent with my thoughts over time.

at the time when the legion came out I defended that dalaran should continue to be an alliance city! I throughout the expa supports all the time that suramar and the nightborne should be part of the night elves! not like you who from the beginning supported exchanging nightborne for void elves / high elves.

It doesn't bother me that the alliance elves have good things. I'm glad the night elves have all the great customizations that they received in shadowlands. I support that the void elves have more personalization and as I like the lore I even support that the void elves have green eyes because the silvermoon scholar in telogrus have green eyes.

I hope that the void elves and the night elves have beautiful cities. I hate that blizzard destroyed teldrassil and I wish with all my heart that the night elves soon have a new capital in nordrassil that is beautiful.

About the capitals of the elves of the horde, you do not understand that both suramar and silvermoon are an essential part of the narrative of those playable races. the destruction of quelthalas and their rebuilding is a vital part of all lore blood elf and that has nothing to do with the thalassian of the alliance. that silvermoon could rise again from the ruins was thanks to rommath and it was the blood elves the patriots who decided to stay and fight to save quelthalas that today we have our kingdom back.
thalyssra and the nightborne fought to save suramar the entire legion campaign is all about that is their reason for being. you cannot take away from the nightborne what is an essential part of all their lore and development.

you didn't like what blizzard did i get it, actually you complimented blizzard and said it was fair trade. but now you can't think that it makes sense to take something so important from playable races for all their development and lore.

and to finish lordaeron belongs to the forsaken

[ravenmoon]

You named and since you mainly argue with me I suppose it is me when you mean that I do not want the elves of the alliance to get good things?

That is a lie, unlike you, I am consistent with my thoughts over time.

at the time when the legion came out I defended that dalaran should continue to be an alliance city! I throughout the expa supports all the time that suramar and the nightborne should be part of the night elves! not like you who from the beginning supported exchanging nightborne for void elves / high elves.

It doesn't bother me that the alliance elves have good things. I'm glad the night elves have all the great customizations that they received in shadowlands. I support that the void elves have more personalization and as I like the lore I even support that the void elves have green eyes because the silvermoon scholar in telogrus have green eyes.

I hope that the void elves and the night elves have beautiful cities. I hate that blizzard destroyed teldrassil and I wish with all my heart that the night elves soon have a new capital in nordrassil that is beautiful.

About the capitals of the elves of the horde, you do not understand that both suramar and silvermoon are an essential part of the narrative of those playable races. the destruction of quelthalas and their rebuilding is a vital part of all lore blood elf and that has nothing to do with the thalassian of the alliance. that silvermoon could rise again from the ruins was thanks to rommath and it was the blood elves the patriots who decided to stay and fight to save quelthalas that today we have our kingdom back.
thalyssra and the nightborne fought to save suramar the entire legion campaign is all about that is their reason for being. you cannot take away from the nightborne what is an essential part of all their lore and development.

you didn't like what blizzard did i get it, actually you complimented blizzard and said it was fair trade. but now you can't think that it makes sense to take something so important from playable races for all their development and lore.

and to finish lordaeron belongs to the forsaken

People are allowed to change their minds over time especially when they get wiser or are persuaded by others because they have open minds listen to others when good arguments are put forward or realise things they didnt before.

The only way I would be happy with Nightborne or blood elves on the horde is either.
1. They remain like they (high elves and kaldorei with different names) but are a small remnant and insignificant on the horde, losing the high elf kingdom and kaldorei civilization they possess currently to the alliance (horde gets Troll, Orc, Goblin and Forsaken cities to make up)

2. They change from the high elf and kaldorei noble and very alliance minded and ordered peoples into something different, preferably much closer to the horde, but ultimately distinct enough from the high elf and kaldorei types they are currently.

Furthermore, while here they also lose Silvermoon and Suramar, they would gain or build something new, it can be amazing or horrific, I dont care (prefer amazing), but it must be a different architecture and set from what they had as high elves and night elven civilization. I'd like the blood elves to gain some new physical features that high elves never had. Quite visible in the NPCs, but for player diversity, these new unique blood elf model features will be optional. High elves and void elves won't have these.

I'll be okay with either option 1 or 2 - for all the reasons I have stated over and over again.

[Rhlor]

People are allowed to change their minds over time especially when they get wiser or are persuaded by others because they have open minds listen to others when good arguments are put forward or realise things they didnt before.

The only way I would be happy with Nightborne or blood elves on the horde is either.
1. They remain like they (high elves and kaldorei with different names) but are a small remnant and insignificant on the horde, losing the high elf kingdom and kaldorei civilization they possess currently to the alliance (horde gets Troll, Orc, Goblin and Forsaken cities to make up)

2. They change from the high elf and kaldorei noble and very alliance minded and ordered peoples into something different, preferably much closer to the horde, but ultimately distinct enough from the high elf and kaldorei types they are currently.

Furthermore, while here they also lose Silvermoon and Suramar, they would gain or build something new, it can be amazing or horrific, I dont care (prefer amazing), but it must be a different architecture and set from what they had as high elves and night elven civilization. I'd like the blood elves to gain some new physical features that high elves never had. Quite visible in the NPCs, but for player diversity, these new unique blood elf model features will be optional. High elves and void elves won't have these.

I'll be okay with either option 1 or 2 - for all the reasons I have stated over and over again.

you don't understand playable races or what their lore represents to them. a blood elf is a patriot who will defend silvermoon to the death if the alliance invades quelthalas no blood elf will abandon it they will have to kill the entire race, no one absolutely no one will abandon the sunwell and silvermoon will fight to the end.

[Mace]

you don't understand playable races or what their lore represents to them. a blood elf is a patriot who will defend silvermoon to the death if the alliance invades quelthalas no blood elf will abandon it they will have to kill the entire race, no one absolutely no one will abandon the sunwell and silvermoon will fight to the end.

That may be so, no one is doubting that a person will try to defend his home. What is being said here is not that the horde can't have blood elves (would be better if they didn't at all), but if they do, they shouldn't be the high elves they've been painted as, nor should they have the high elf civilization.

Now as a story goes, it's acceptable for them to have started off with it, but it shouldn't remain that way. The blood elves like they are right now, are high elves in all but name, in a very high elf civilization, this is too alliance, and the best of the alliance, for both reasons it shouldn't be like that if you're gonna remain a horde race. What's alliance should be seen and experienced in the best way on the alliance, not taken to the horde, it does neither faction any good.

Pick one:
Either stay in that high elf /alliance framework but be very small so that you're barely noticeable on the horde - [this allows high elves on the alliance eto shine and horde races not to be obscured by their high elves. OR

Blood elves on the horde must become something different enough from the high elves they were, in character, attitudes, civilization etc, even appearance, certainly in architecture - no more high elf stuff, give them something new, different.
[Same arguments apply for Nightborne they must not be so kaldorei and alliance minded or in that civilisation they must change to fit the horde or be barely noticeable if you want that alliance pie on the horde, it has to be very small]

[Tanaria]

That may be so, no one is doubting that a person will try to defend his home. What is being said here is not that the horde can't have blood elves (would be better if they didn't at all), but if they do, they shouldn't be the high elves they've been painted as, nor should they have the high elf civilization.

Now as a story goes, it's acceptable for them to have started off with it, but it shouldn't remain that way. The blood elves like they are right now, are high elves in all but name, in a very high elf civilization, this is too alliance, and the best of the alliance, for both reasons it shouldn't be like that if you're gonna remain a horde race. What's alliance should be seen and experienced in the best way on the alliance, not taken to the horde, it does neither faction any good.

Pick one:
Either stay in that high elf /alliance framework but be very small so that you're barely noticeable on the horde - [this allows high elves on the alliance eto shine and horde races not to be obscured by their high elves. OR

Blood elves on the horde must become something different enough from the high elves they were, in character, attitudes, civilization etc, even appearance, certainly in architecture - no more high elf stuff, give them something new, different.
[Same arguments apply for Nightborne they must not be so kaldorei and alliance minded or in that civilisation they must change to fit the horde or be barely noticeable if you want that alliance pie on the horde, it has to be very small]

Or High Elves become something different and you nasty, greedy night elf mage fanatics stop talking about our race.

[Rhlor]

That may be so, no one is doubting that a person will try to defend his home. What is being said here is not that the horde can't have blood elves (would be better if they didn't at all), but if they do, they shouldn't be the high elves they've been painted as, nor should they have the high elf civilization.

Now as a story goes, it's acceptable for them to have started off with it, but it shouldn't remain that way. The blood elves like they are right now, are high elves in all but name, in a very high elf civilization, this is too alliance, and the best of the alliance, for both reasons it shouldn't be like that if you're gonna remain a horde race. What's alliance should be seen and experienced in the best way on the alliance, not taken to the horde, it does neither faction any good.

Pick one:
Either stay in that high elf /alliance framework but be very small so that you're barely noticeable on the horde - [this allows high elves on the alliance eto shine and horde races not to be obscured by their high elves. OR

Blood elves on the horde must become something different enough from the high elves they were, in character, attitudes, civilization etc, even appearance, certainly in architecture - no more high elf stuff, give them something new, different.
[Same arguments apply for Nightborne they must not be so kaldorei and alliance minded or in that civilisation they must change to fit the horde or be barely noticeable if you want that alliance pie on the horde, it has to be very small]

you don't understand what it's like to be a blood elf. The main characteristic of the blood elves is the patriotism is the willingness to give their life for quelthalas, a blood elf will fight to death protecting silvermoon and the sunwell that is the defining characteristic of the blood elves. And this is what many players of the alliance always defended that was what they liked about the high elves of the alliance. the high elves of the alliance are not patriots they do not care about quelthalas they prefer to leave quelthalas and defend the alliance for idiological or moral reasons. a high elf would rather see quelthalas destroyed or go live in an alliance city than eat wyrm mana even if this meant saving quelthalas.

the difference is also clearly seen between blood elves and void elves. The blood elves are a conservative society, they do not want their nation to practice magic that would be a danger to the sunwell, but the void elves and the thalassian who are with them on the contrary are more liberal and are willing to leave quelthalas in their search for knowledge and power.

if silvermoon goes to the alliance it is for two reasons. for some reason the alliance manages to overcome the defense of the magic barrier and conquers quelthalas and in that case the entire race dies or for some unknown reason quelthalas joins the alliance which would make the entire race join the alliance alliance.

in either case the blood elf model should be removed from the horde and replaced by some other race, perhaps ogres.

[Thalassian Bob]

Now as a story goes, it's acceptable for them to have started off with it, but it shouldn't remain that way. The blood elves like they are right now, are high elves in all but name, in a very high elf civilization, this is too alliance, and the best of the alliance, for both reasons it shouldn't be like that if you're gonna remain a horde race. What's alliance should be seen and experienced in the best way on the alliance, not taken to the horde, it does neither faction any good.

Wider high elven society was never particularly invested in the Alliance. The only reason there was a high elven presence in WC2 was because Anasterian sent a token force to support the humans to repay an ancient debt to Lothar's ancestors which he wished to be rid of.

As the war developed, they were, of course, glad to have human support when the war spilled into Quel'Thalas thanks to the Amani. But, after the war was over, Quel'Thalas left the Alliance.

High elves are only present in the Alliance forces in WC3 because of a few volunteers, acting on their own volition, going to aid Arthas or they were citizens of Dalaran.

Quel'Thalas and thereby wider pre-schism high elven society was never really Alliance beyond mutual favour-giving. They were certainly never ideologically invested in the Alliance. Only a minority of individuals (which later collectivised in institutions like the Silver Covenant) were ever Alliance "patriots". As such, high elves really shouldn't be considered a core Alliance race. They never really were. The prominence of a few high elven heroes like Alleria who chose, as individuals, to pledge themselves to the Alliance merely gives the illusion that they were.

This is not to say that high elves being present in the Alliance isn't interesting. I love the lore of the schism in modern Thalassian society and the fact that this conflict is exacerbated by taking part across faction lines. But, I think people will be disappointed if they continue to insist that "high elves" are a fundamental aspect of the Alliance.