Question for horde players would you like to replace blood elves with another race?

[Snuffe]

Have wanted Ogres and Forest Trolls for ages to be added to the horde. Would have played a Ogri Magi for sure, Or FT warrior/hunter

[Caerule]

I'd love Ogres. I want them a lot. But replacing Blood Elves is silliness. I wouldn't want that.

[Saltysquidoon]

Belves were added to the horde for business reasons and the story was written to fit that reality. Even when it makes narrative sense for them to leave the horde they won't because it's an mmo.
The alliance has blue-eyed blood elves now.

That's it, it's over its done, people need to let it go.

[bagina]

I honestly wish that every playable race wasn't arbitarly forced into either Horde or Alliance. It keeps making less and less sense. Joining H/A should be optional, especially for some races. Imo Belves never belonged in the horde, just as Forsaken never belonged in the horde, and just like Nelves never belonged in the Alliance.

[Rhlor]

Is that really the crux of this thread? Or you just wanted to stir the pot?
As I understand it, Alliance wants High Elves (it's just that their CURRENT model is that of Blood Elves). Never have I heard Alliance wanting Blood Elves outright removed from the Horde.

I recommend that you read the last pages of the blood elves and high elves threads

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How about this: Blood elves, Nightborne, Night Elves and Void elves leave their respective factions and form their own.

It would be weird not going to Org or Stormwind though.

new elundris faction capital

[VinceVega]

It is simply not possible to take races OUT of factions.
You would piss of so many players no matter the race but triple with blood elf fans.... these guys are vicious.

The only thing possible is ti get rid of strict faction. Azeroth gets a kind of UN where the races can organize their own factions but overall everyone can play with everyone.

And just to be clear: Lorewise i don't think the bloodelves should have been with the horde at all. But it is the way it is and for obvious gameplay reasons that will never change.

[Mace]

[MENTION=576692] snip

@Rhlor - no, if it is total removal of the blood elves for any or all of these races, but yes if it is replacing just a large NPC population of blood elves along with Silvermoon/Quel'thalas being lost to the alliance, and the gap they leave behind being filled by NPC Ogres, Forest trolls or San'layn and their cities/assets.

Detailed Explanation
The loss of the city of Silvermoon and Suramar would have minor impact on the horde (largely horde elf fans lore fans - probably 25% of the Belf population) especially if you replace it with Troll/orc/goblin cities, but the replacement of the Blood elves as playable? will have enormous effect, as would be the case for any existing race.

The horde needed the blood elves inclusion to become popular, a beautiful Silvermoon and Quel'thalas alongside the new models helped entice alliance players over who have now fixed their loyalty on the horde, but now it's popular and the go to faction,
neither the high elf characteristic of these elves or the territories and city of the high elf, and the Nightborne are needed to maintain the horde.


In other words, they were needed to get to this state of popularity but no longer needed to remain popular or desirable enough to go toe to toe with alliance for player selection (i'm talking the assets not the playability of the models). The models as playable from character selection is absolutely needed. Could the same effect have been achieved with another new novel race instead of high elves in TBC? I believe so,
but for flipping numbers, high elves was a smart choice who's downside has affected both faction identity and balance - you have to understand that.

The affect on balance was desired initially, but atm it's swung too far the other way, I agree with Ravemoon that
"the return of the majority of the blood elves and their high elven civilization in the lore would help fix this especially if they maintain a better elf presentation on the alliance. It should be just enough to equalise the horde and alliance and repair their more distinct identities"

It's no where near as drastic as when the blood elves went horde, but that's not needed today,
high elves and night elves have been alliance or associated with it, their races are based on all the things that define the alliance. ...
the blood elves and Nightborne you play on the horde are currently exactly those high elves and highborne night elves but with a different name and some minor cosmetic differences (this is the problem, it's alliance on the horde like they are right now and with what they have, the assets of the high elves and night elven civilization), therefore most of the blood elves and Nightborne picking alliance by returning to being high elves or reverting to kaldorei would have a much smaller effect in player shift than the initial BElf horde selection in TBC - as long as the horde has access to the models, most players won't care that much, only lore loving horde elf fans.

Ravenmoon is right in the prediction that other horde fans would welcome better horde infrastructure for trolls, orcs and goblins etc to replace the loss of the elven infrastructure and numbers.

I also agree with Ravenmoon that
"for the horde elves to remain powerful on the horde at this point in time they need to change into something that is different from the high elves and night elven civilization they are".
This would help distinguish the factions more, give the alliance back what is theirs so you don't have this imbalanced state of half the horde feeling alliance centred thanks to the very prominent presence of the Blood elves and Nightborne.


Whether the San'layn is what they should drift towards or another concept, that is for another debate. But to totally replace the blood elves from being playable with the San'layn or ogres or forest trolls? I think that would be very bad for the horde. However replacing the influence and bulk of the blood elves with either of these races. That would work.

[Soon-TM]

A better question would be why can't we have belfs AND ogres in the Horde?

[Rhlor]

@Rhlor - no, if it is total removal of the blood elves for any or all of these races, but yes if it is replacing just a large NPC population of blood elves along with Silvermoon/Quel'thalas being lost to the alliance, and the gap they leave behind being filled by NPC Ogres, Forest trolls or San'layn and their cities/assets.

Detailed Explanation
The loss of the city of Silvermoon and Suramar would have minor impact on the horde (largely horde elf fans lore fans - probably 25% of the Belf population) especially if you replace it with Troll/orc/goblin cities, but the replacement of the Blood elves as playable? will have enormous effect, as would be the case for any existing race.

The horde needed the blood elves inclusion to become popular, a beautiful Silvermoon and Quel'thalas alongside the new models helped entice alliance players over who have now fixed their loyalty on the horde, but now it's popular and the go to faction,
neither the high elf characteristic of these elves or the territories and city of the high elf, and the Nightborne are needed to maintain the horde.


In other words, they were needed to get to this state of popularity but no longer needed to remain popular or desirable enough to go toe to toe with alliance for player selection (i'm talking the assets not the playability of the models). The models as playable from character selection is absolutely needed. Could the same effect have been achieved with another new novel race instead of high elves in TBC? I believe so,
but for flipping numbers, high elves was a smart choice who's downside has affected both faction identity and balance - you have to understand that.

The affect on balance was desired initially, but atm it's swung too far the other way, I agree with Ravemoon that
"the return of the majority of the blood elves and their high elven civilization in the lore would help fix this especially if they maintain a better elf presentation on the alliance. It should be just enough to equalise the horde and alliance and repair their more distinct identities"

It's no where near as drastic as when the blood elves went horde, but that's not needed today,
high elves and night elves have been alliance or associated with it, their races are based on all the things that define the alliance. ...
the blood elves and Nightborne you play on the horde are currently exactly those high elves and highborne night elves but with a different name and some minor cosmetic differences (this is the problem, it's alliance on the horde like they are right now and with what they have, the assets of the high elves and night elven civilization), therefore most of the blood elves and Nightborne picking alliance by returning to being high elves or reverting to kaldorei would have a much smaller effect in player shift than the initial BElf horde selection in TBC - as long as the horde has access to the models, most players won't care that much, only lore loving horde elf fans.

Ravenmoon is right in the prediction that other horde fans would welcome better horde infrastructure for trolls, orcs and goblins etc to replace the loss of the elven infrastructure and numbers.

I also agree with Ravenmoon that
"for the horde elves to remain powerful on the horde at this point in time they need to change into something that is different from the high elves and night elven civilization they are".
This would help distinguish the factions more, give the alliance back what is theirs so you don't have this imbalanced state of half the horde feeling alliance centred thanks to the very prominent presence of the Blood elves and Nightborne.


Whether the San'layn is what they should drift towards or another concept, that is for another debate. But to totally replace the blood elves from being playable with the San'layn or ogres or forest trolls? I think that would be very bad for the horde. However replacing the influence and bulk of the blood elves with either of these races. That would work.

you don't understand what it means to be a blood elf and the difference that alliance players always made between blood elf and high elf.

the alliance players always wanted the high elf which are the npcs that we see in wow, the alliance players from their perspective see the high elves as a morally superior and uncorrupted race unlike the blood elves.
the high elves preferred to keep their hatred of orcs over quelthalas, their allegiance to the alliance over quelthalas, and their refusal to eat Mana wyrm over quelthalas.

those elves who kept the name high elf mainly silver covenant was what alliance players always wanted.

the blood elves on the other hand their loyalty is only to quelthalas. A blood elf is willing to give her life for quelthalas to do whatever it takes to save and rebuild quelthalas. Blood elves will eat Mana wyrm if necessary, ally with the horde if necessary, a blood elf will always be aligned with Quelthalas.

it was the blood elves mainly rommath who rebuilt silvermoon, it was the blood elves who fought to rebuild their kingdom from total annihilation, if it were not for the blood elves quelthalas would be a kingdom of the scourge.

quelthalas is a vital part of what it means to be a blood elf, if you take quelthalas from you it is the same as killing the entire race because blood elves will fight to defend quelthalas to the death. If quelthalas joins the alliance peacefully, the entire race will do so because their loyalty is purely and exclusively for quelthalas.

Another possible scenario would be that once the alliance exterminates the entire race of blood elves, after the bood elves died defending until their last moments that the forsaken would raise them up as dark ranger

the elves now dark ranger would be crazy and with an irrepressible desire to seek the death and annihilation of the alliance. they would lose all their current customizations and would have new dark ranger customizations

[Dalheim]

Give us BE and u can take Gnomes!

You got yourself a fucking deal!

GNOMES MASTER RACE!

[Mace]

It is simply not possible to take races OUT of factions.
You would piss of so many players no matter the race but triple with blood elf fans.... these guys are vicious.

The only thing possible is ti get rid of strict faction. Azeroth gets a kind of UN where the races can organize their own factions but overall everyone can play with everyone.

And just to be clear: Lorewise i don't think the bloodelves should have been with the horde at all. But it is the way it is and for obvious gameplay reasons that will never change.

Exactly, this is why this poll doesn't hit what I think Rhlor is trying to achieve. You can't put removing blood elves from a faction on the table.

If you're trying to disprove Ravenmoon's theory form the other topics, you have to present what he was getting at accurately, which is replace the NPC and high elven assets of the blood elves with the inclusion of Ogres, Forest Trolls or San'layn along with their assets. Blood elves remain playable - only the vast majority the NPCs and the nation have returned to the alliance or been killed.

I believe many answers will change. With this choice.

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you don't understand what it means to be a blood elf and the difference that alliance players always made between blood elf and high elf.

Don't pay attention to what other players make of things, look at the information and what the lore has presented.

[Swnem]

This will never happen, but would it make sense? Yes.
Just like the nightborne.
But, you know, it is what it is. Cat's out of the bag and the game changed from our preconceptions.

I just want to see them blur the alliance as well with some feral races. Aka Sethrak, Saberon or the sort.

[Rhlor]

Exactly, this is why this poll doesn't hit what I think Rhlor is trying to achieve. You can't put removing blood elves from a faction on the table.

If you're trying to disprove Ravenmoon's theory form the other topics, you have to present what he was getting at accurately, which is replace the NPC and high elven assets of the blood elves with the inclusion of Ogres, Forest Trolls or San'layn along with their assets. Blood elves remain playable - only the vast majority the NPCs and the nation have returned to the alliance or been killed.

I believe many answers will change. With this choice.

- - - Updated - - -


Don't pay attention to what other players make of things, look at the information and what the lore has presented.

the lore of the blood elves is to sacrifice everything to save quelthalas is to be willing to eat Mana wyrm and join the horde. it was the blood elves who rebuilt silvermoon (mainly rommath) and who fought to save their kingdom from the scourge. all it means to be blood elf is to be loyal to quelthalas. blood elves without quelthalas must be eliminated because their only reason for existing is their loyalty to quelthalas.

do you like the dark ranger scenario?

the blood elves as a race are wiped out by the alliance and the forsaken raise them as a dark ranger. now the playable race would be called dark ranger the undead drove them crazy and with an irrepressible desire to kill everyone in the alliance.
the dark ranger would keep the blood elf model but without any of the current customizations and would be replaced by new undead customizations.


I think this is the best you can have in terms of lore, since it would keep the essence of what the blood elves always represented dying in their final defense of quelthalas.

[Mace]

the high elves preferred to keep their hatred of orcs over quelthalas, their allegiance to the alliance over quelthalas, and their refusal to eat Mana wyrm over quelthalas.

those elves who kept the name high elf mainly silver covenant was what alliance players always wanted.

the blood elves on the other hand their loyalty is only to quelthalas. A blood elf is willing to give her life for quelthalas to do whatever it takes to save and rebuild quelthalas. Blood elves will eat Mana wyrm if necessary, ally with the horde if necessary, a blood elf will always be aligned with Quelthalas.

it was the blood elves mainly rommath who rebuilt silvermoon, it was the blood elves who fought to rebuild their kingdom from total annihilation, if it were not for the blood elves quelthalas would be a kingdom of the scourge.

quelthalas is a vital part of what it means to be a blood elf, if you take quelthalas from you it is the same as killing the entire race because blood elves will fight to defend quelthalas to the death. If quelthalas joins the alliance peacefully, the entire race will do so because their loyalty is purely and exclusively for quelthalas.

Another possible scenario would be that once the alliance exterminates the entire race of blood elves, after the bood elves died defending until their last moments that the forsaken would raise them up as dark ranger

the elves now dark ranger would be crazy and with an irrepressible desire to seek the death and annihilation of the alliance. they would lose all their current customizations and would have new dark ranger customizations

It appears like you can't see past the in-game faction narrative, to what the essence of what the blood elves are.

They have been written as high elves in all but name at this point and on the horde.. this is the problem. Not what the narrative of who did what to who.. that is just a vehicle to facilitate what the devs desire to do.

if the devs want an alliance race on the horde to boost popularity and create friction between the alliance and horde, they'll adapt the narrative to show that.
If they want that alliance race on the horde to no longer feel/be alliance like, because they want the identity of the horde and the alliance to feel more distinct, they'll adapt the narrative to facilitate that.

You must see beyond the narrative, or rather more than just the narrative and understand what is going on and why. You have to u nderstand why it was the best of the alliance races that was taken over, and not just their models/apeparacne but their civilization, a very alliance type - and why this has affected botht eh image and identity of the horde and the destiny and narrative of the alliance.. what was the motivation? Is it still necessary to be that way.

Blood elves are on the horde because blizzard felt the horde needed profile raising and some of it's excessive alliance fandom to switch to the horde and populate it, evening out the faction numbers and facilitate the game play systems that really relied on a balance.. this is why they were made glorious on the horde, not just a remnant group like the void elves or Darkspear troll. The entire nation, civilization and all. Now the horde is the most popular faction, and it is the alliance that is flagging. The horde also has an identity crisis and a mixed image with alliance elements in the blood elves and Nightborne, as wlel as traditional horde elements in the other core races.

Should they decide this isn't desirable anymore and want to boost the alliance, the elves are the best way to do it, like they were when the horde needed numbers.

See beyond, in game squabbles between blood elves and high elves, there are other fundamental issues affecting the game and how it's narrative can progress. The alliance feels flat and the horde confused. It's disjointed.. It's also compounded by the horde being far more popular at end game than the alliance.

Ravenmoon was astute in pinpointing the heart of the issue and the solution involves handling the elves on the horde. They are the alliance element on the horde and also desirable enough by alliance type fans to rebalance the numbers, without demolition the horde. This is why he talks about the models remaining playable but the assets and the majority of the people return into the alliance, that will both draw a chunk of the horde elf fans who's number would be enough to balance out, and also simultaneously fix the blandness of the alliance because the elves are the race that interest and excite them the most (much more than the other races) and fix the identity crisis of the horde.. that now has to operate as some confused, multi-state for different races and civilization- which was never it's original strong mandate but rather that was what the alliance was. whereas the horde was a a strong unified thematic race of people tightly bound by their situation and shared ethos/

This change can be repaired by removing most of the blood elves and Nightborne returning them back to the alliance with their kingdoms as high elves and night elves now , and leaving as mall number of NPc blood elves and Nightborne remain, inconspicuous if they want them to still be alliance like (because it'sn ot good to have an al liance race so prominent on the horde, so if you just have them stay in the way they have ben so far, they must be small) alternatively, you ust change them fromt hat alliance like group to something different, not just in one area, but in every area, they must become very different from what the high elves were and are, and what the kaldorei were and are, to be something new.

[Rhlor]

It appears like you can't see past the in-game faction narrative, to what the essence of what the blood elves are.

They have been written as high elves in all but name at this point and on the horde.. this is the problem. Not what the narrative of who did what to who.. that is just a vehicle to facilitate what the devs desire to do.

if the devs want an alliance race on the horde to boost popularity and create friction between the alliance and horde, they'll adapt the narrative to show that.
If they want that alliance race on the horde to no longer feel/be alliance like, because they want the identity of the horde and the alliance to feel more distinct, they'll adapt the narrative to facilitate that.

You must see beyond the narrative, or rather more than just the narrative and understand what is going on and why. You have to u nderstand why it was the best of the alliance races that was taken over, and not just their models/apeparacne but their civilization, a very alliance type - and why this has affected botht eh image and identity of the horde and the destiny and narrative of the alliance.. what was the motivation? Is it still necessary to be that way.

Blood elves are on the horde because blizzard felt the horde needed profile raising and some of it's excessive alliance fandom to switch to the horde and populate it, evening out the faction numbers and facilitate the game play systems that really relied on a balance.. this is why they were made glorious on the horde, not just a remnant group like the void elves or Darkspear troll. The entire nation, civilization and all. Now the horde is the most popular faction, and it is the alliance that is flagging. The horde also has an identity crisis and a mixed image with alliance elements in the blood elves and Nightborne, as wlel as traditional horde elements in the other core races.

Should they decide this isn't desirable anymore and want to boost the alliance, the elves are the best way to do it, like they were when the horde needed numbers.

See beyond, in game squabbles between blood elves and high elves, there are other fundamental issues affecting the game and how it's narrative can progress. The alliance feels flat and the horde confused. It's disjointed.. It's also compounded by the horde being far more popular at end game than the alliance.

Ravenmoon was astute in pinpointing the heart of the issue and the solution involves handling the elves on the horde. They are the alliance element on the horde and also desirable enough by alliance type fans to rebalance the numbers, without demolition the horde. This is why he talks about the models remaining playable but the assets and the majority of the people return into the alliance, that will both draw a chunk of the horde elf fans who's number would be enough to balance out, and also simultaneously fix the blandness of the alliance because the elves are the race that interest and excite them the most (much more than the other races) and fix the identity crisis of the horde.. that now has to operate as some confused, multi-state for different races and civilization- which was never it's original strong mandate but rather that was what the alliance was. whereas the horde was a a strong unified thematic race of people tightly bound by their situation and shared ethos/

This change can be repaired by removing most of the blood elves and Nightborne returning them back to the alliance with their kingdoms as high elves and night elves now , and leaving as mall number of NPc blood elves and Nightborne remain, inconspicuous if they want them to still be alliance like (because it'sn ot good to have an al liance race so prominent on the horde, so if you just have them stay in the way they have ben so far, they must be small) alternatively, you ust change them fromt hat alliance like group to something different, not just in one area, but in every area, they must become very different from what the high elves were and are, and what the kaldorei were and are, to be something new.

blood elves are high elves, high elves who love quelthalas and want to rebuild and protect it because they were willing to eat Mana wyrm and join the horde to save quelthalas, which the high elves of the alliance were unwilling to do.

that's what it's like to be a blood elf, it's to be loyal to quelthalas.

it's not about factions it's about race, what it means to be a blood elf is loyalty and protection from quelthalas. without quelthalas the blood elves cease to exist. and what we are doing in this thread is looking for the best option to replace the blood elves when they cease to exist.

What did you think of the proposal to replace the blood elves with dark ranger, which would have the model but no longer have the customizations, they would have undead customization.

[melodramocracy]

I'd like to keep Belves, and actually see Silvermoon be fixed after what... a decade + now?

[Aleksej89]

If i remember some statistic info right Blood Elves are BY FAR the most popular horde race.
As in they make up over 40% of the horde characters or something crazy like that.

I think BElves are overall the 2nd most popular race right after the humans, but all that is from some years ago.
Either way you will most certainly not find enough horde players to vote for removing Belves.

[ro9ue]

Ogres for sure.

[Koward]

Ogres are such a cool race that you cannot pick any other option if you truly zug zug.

[Danuel]

Yup give us ogres - another niche race for 1%ters.