Rescue Jaina from Torghast??

[Minikin]

Yes, but bait is still food.

I'm going to steal this response for future use

[Enter Name Here]

great copy, have an upvote

[MikeBogina]

We've seen plenty of souls with their memories intact, life is more than a soul i'm afraid, and the dead are just objects, not people.

This is Warcraft and with all the recent developments, your soul is the most important thing about you, and their souls are in the physical universe and again, no Kyrian is coming to retrieve it, thus they are alive. Your body is just an object.

Yeah i am so horrible for calling a rose a rose and a corpse a corpse.

But not a genocide a genocide...

Given that that's the standard first reaction trolls and humans have on eachother it kinda does excuse it. If i cone to a new land and encounter a new kind of disease then i'm completely justified in regarding it as a threat and exterminating it.

Invades someone's home, kills them...
also nice comparing trolls to a disease, you're literally proving my point.

You can engage in the mental gymnastics for as long as you like and whine about "villain bats" or w/e when it becomes too hard to ignore again, but the horde is simply the evil faction. Not irredeemably evil, usually, but evil nonetheless. The game, lore and even the devs are fairly clear on this, regardless of how many protests are mounted.

I'm sorry but if anyone's doing mental gymnastics here, it's the one defending genocide here.

Also you should read that bit about how Jaina was willing and capable of literally just washing away the horde on her own post Thunder King, it's a real banger, puts the horde's position in good perspective. They've been at the alliance's mercy so often now that it's genuinely amazing how stupid the alliance seems for not subjugating or exterminating them entirely.

Post Thunder King? You'll have to point me to that then, cause Pre Cata, there was a moment where she had the Iris. As of Siege of Orgrimmar, sorry but the Alliance was at the mercy of the Horde, who just went to war with itself for being too mean to the Alliance. Sylvanas alone would be enough to kill everyone in that room, especially with what we know now of her hidden powers.

In that sense i did like BfA's finale: at least it became clear that this time it was not alliance stupidity that kept the horde alive.

Was it the part that even with the Horde rebels, the Alliance stood no chance of winning? Only reason the Alliance is alive is "muh honor"

it's genuinely amazing how stupid the alliance seems

I mean if you've been on these forums for as long as I have, it's not surprising. We see it on display quite often.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

After they harassed and assassinated a certain peaceful mining operation in silithus...

there was no Peaceful mining operation they attacked night elfs and the explores league and kidnapped members to research weapons.

[Mehrunes]

there was no Peaceful mining operation they attacked night elfs and the explores league and kidnapped members to research weapons.

The Explorer's League was sent to Silithus way after the SI:7's reinforcements. And when the Alliance player gets to Silithus they are briefed with the situation so far, yet no one mentions any engagement with the Horde or that the Horde is even aware of the Alliance's presence, even though it'd be a pretty vital piece of information for a new operative, meaning that the Alliance questline quite clearly starts first.

Besides, the Goblins could have been impaling the SI:7 agents on the bones of other SI:7 agents and it still wouldn't have changed a thing, because the Night Elves were intruding in the Horde mining camp in the first place, where they had no right to be and where their very presence caused a violation of Horde's sovereignty.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The Explorer's League was sent to Silithus way after the SI:7's reinforcements. And when the Alliance player gets to Silithus they are briefed with the situation so far, yet no one mentions any engagement with the Horde or that the Horde is even aware of the Alliance's presence, even though it'd be a pretty vital piece of information for a new operative, meaning that the Alliance questline quite clearly starts first.

This just has no backing one way or another. Just as you say the alliance player would have been briefed about the exploder's league the exploder's league would have been brief on the SI7 base that was already set up.

literally all we have as far as a canon timeline goes is SI7 spying on the goblins and brining some azurite to Anduin any thing past that point is guess work.

What we do know how ever is that galywix didn't send peaceful goblins he sent goons to be goons and keep the alliance away.

Besides, the Goblins could have been impaling the SI:7 agents on the bones of other SI:7 agents and it still wouldn't have changed a thing, because the Night Elves were intruding in the Horde mining camp in the first place, where they had no right to be and where their very presence caused a violation of Horde's sovereignty.

The horde have no legitimate claim to the land It was night elf land before the sword there is No horde sovereignty to violate.

[Feanoro]

there is No horde sovereignty to violate.

Have you forgotten? "Orc want, orc take. You no like? Orc kill you."

[Kiri]

If you want to engage at looking at things from Jaina's perspective at least do so thoroughly rather than turning a blind eye to anything that doesn't exonerate her. Because you kinda skipped way past the starting point of Jaina's perspective being based on Jaina just jumping to conclusions while having no actual evidence whatsoever. And while her conclusions turned out to be correct because of Blizzard's rushed, inattentive style of writing combined with their inane need to whitewash everything wrong the Alliance has done mere seconds after they wrote them do it, that's something we know due to being omniscient observers. Which you're totally against.

Because all Jaina had was a portal connecting Darnassus to Dalaran. Which possibly wasn't even created by a Sunreaver, as the operatives on Darnassian side were members of the Reliquary, not Sunreavers. That's it. This is all that Jaina had to start her bout of ethnic-political cleansing. Which does absolutely fuck all to establish Sunreaver culpability. For all she knew it could have been a visitor from the Horde or even a High Elf that betrayed Vereesa for an opportunity to return to his homeland.

Then again this is going to fall on deaf ears, because for someone interested oh, so much in the non-omniscient view you somehow managed to talk about how Aethas lied to Jaina in the very paragraph you dedicated to "looking at it from an in-story POV". Even though from in-story POV Jaina had no way whatsoever to know that Aethas was not telling her the truth, because she had nothing even remotely hinting otherwise. Meaning that if you were actually looking at this from an in-story POV you'd have written that "the leader of said faction assured you he knew nothing about it".

As such, your following remarks about how the rest of the Sunreavers are "explicitly members of the same command structure that just lied to you" and "at the very least failed one of their members to betray the city" (which doesn't even make sense) are utterly tainted if you're looking at this from an in-story POV.

On the other hand, what was actually known at the time from the in-story POV was that Jaina herself has violated Dalaran's neutrality and as such betrayed the city. Even before the Sunreaver agent did. Which is something she herself admitted. It's Jaina herself who said that she was aiding Darnassus not as an advisor or in a research role, but by personally engaging in hostile actions against the Horde forces trying to breach into Darnassus, personally killing, wounding or capturing them as POWs, depending on what her traps did.

The best thing is that even if we looked past your blatant inconsistency in regards to looking at this just from an in-story POV, just like you looked past anything that would put Jaina's ethnic-political cleansing in a bad light, you yourself provided one alternative. Rendering the point of your fun thought exercise at "looking at the Purge from in-story POV alone" made in order to excuse Jaina completely moot.

Actually, I am going at this from Jaina's POV - she believes that Aethas is lying and has no way of ascertaining that she is wrong in that situation. Again, she is not omniscient, but she does 'know' that Sunreavers were involved and that Aethas was either oblivious to something like that going on in his organization or covering for it. And yeah, yeah, she doesn't have full proof of it either, but no such proof exists anyway. You might prefer it if she had just done nothing at all about the breach and tolerate potential traitors using Dalaran's portal network, but it isn't all that unreasonable to crack down on the most likely suspects, i.e. the horde sympathizing faction in the city.

Anyway, yeah, she acts on what she assumes to be correct and is thus faced with the conundrum above. It's not really one that requires omniscience, really.

The part about Jaina's actions doesn't really factor into the question I poised anyway, though that is one heck of a reach. She warded a dangerous artifact against theft from any faction, be it horde, criminals, twilight's hammer cultists, demons, whatever. I fail to see how that is an hostile action specifically against the Horde, when one can only potentially be injured when they break into a capital city with the intent of stealing a WMD. It's a weird logic, really. Safeguarding dangerous artifacts is one of Dalaran's services and duties and we can't even prove that they don't do that for both sides, if invited.

But yeah, what is the alternative if you are Jaina, you believe that at least some Sunreavers are working for the Horde and might be plotting to either use Dalaran to harm more people, or threaten the city itself. What do you do other than apprehending them/kicking them out?
And yeah, I played that one on Alliance where she just ported them away instead of murdering them. Blame Blizzard whitewashing or whatever for it, but that's the story I experienced. When even Chronicles keeps being retconned and is written from a biased perspective, I really do not fret too much about those things. The other faction is always presented as more monstrous in game to stoke the flames, it's just how it is. Applies to both after all.

[Feanoro]

@Kiri In another thread with multiple pages of Hordies sobbing that Jaina was literally Hitler, I linked every single quest involved in the Purge. What do you know, there was evidence that pointed to exactly what Jaina concluded. That goes against the innocent underdogs narrative though, so it was ignored. You're not going to convince them, I'm sorry to say.

[Houle]

He's good with spirits as a sorta ex-shaman.
I hops he gets his powers back in Shadowlands, maybe some closure with his parents and Garrosh.

speaking of garrosh, was there any mention of him in revendreht or the raid? i havent heard or seen anything.
which means hell be patch material

[Omians]

He's good with spirits as a sorta ex-shaman.
I hops he gets his powers back in Shadowlands, maybe some closure with his parents and Garrosh.

When you do rescue thrall some Mawsworn have him in chains and he askes the elements for aid and you start seeing Lightening shoot down the chains aw the mawsworn

[FelPlague]

Lore-wise only Horde players get Thrall out right?

I mean we Alliance players humans, dwarves and night elves saving him from that place is pretty wierd.
Night elven players that serve Tyrande makes really 0 sense. And for humans you can also question them getting him out after the whole formation of the horde thing.
Night elves lost their home and city large part was warchief doing, and alliance trusted after SoO and they attacked again.

Maybe it is just me but as a Alliance player if one Horde character deserves hell its Thrall.





Complain complain complain complain complain

I mean idk what you are talking about, why wouldnt the alliance want to save thrall, the literally like MOST alliance favorered horde member?
Even tyrande aint that angry at thrall, as he had nothing to do with anything that happened.

[Feanoro]

Do not think I am justifying it, I am lamenting how obvious and sad it was. And mods still did nothing. Why is it that a clear bait thread is allowed to go on for 10+ pages?

Because that's obviously the objective, unbiased thing to do!

[VyersReaver]

Why is this a mirror copy of a thread about saving Jaina as Horde?

[Minikin]

Quite the deja vu.
Forsaken are a group of people, they have their minds and memories and most important of all... they have their souls. No Kyrian is coming to collect them.

You can view them however you want, that's how racism usually works, but justifying actions of harm onto a group because you believe they are lesser is wrong. Horrible people do that.

Trolls and humans have been fighting for a long time, doesn't excuse humans coming across a group of trolls on an island that they've never fought before and genociding them. This is a unique defense that the alliance use, don't think we've ever had a case where Horde just kills a race of another and gets to say "our races have fought before"
Daelin would have most likely died and took all of Theramore with him. Jaina helped cause it was the right thing to do, but she also asked the horde to not kill everyone. You tell me where the marysue came in clutch for the Horde cause it's not shown anywhere.
The Orcs committed a horrible genocide on the another the manipulation of one of the Draenei's former leaders. Still a horrible act they committed, but you know... one of the draenei(Eredar) manipulated them into thinking the Draenei were going to attack them.
And the Alliance did spare the Horde that they captured, putting them in internment camps, but no I can't agree with after Pandaria. If anything, the Horde spared the Alliance by rebelling against Garrosh who would have wiped out the Alliance. And just because Varian makes some threats, while underground, surrounded by the Horde, a powerful shaman and Sylvanas, doesn't mean he could have done anything.

Don't forget, the Horde Spared Theramore, not once but twice... third time Theramore had to get wiped off the map for it's arrogance.

This is very well written.

The only part im not 100% sure on is the forsaken Kyrian thing because I'm pretty sure I saw a forsaken in bastion though I'll have to check. Think I saw it at The Firstborns Bounty

[Moozart]

Lore-wise only Horde players get Thrall out right?

I mean we Alliance players humans, dwarves and night elves saving him from that place is pretty wierd.
Night elven players that serve Tyrande makes really 0 sense. And for humans you can also question them getting him out after the whole formation of the horde thing.
Night elves lost their home and city large part was warchief doing, and alliance trusted after SoO and they attacked again.

Maybe it is just me but as a Alliance player if one Horde character deserves hell its Thrall.





Complain complain complain complain complain

Unless you are a smooth brain its not hard to see why alliance would rescue Thrall... just in the intro quest there were ALL working together, Jaina was already trying to save Thrall.... So why wouldn't the rest of the Alliance. It is pretty clear everyone needs to work together to get out of this so not sure how it would be "weird"

- - - Updated - - -

Thrall wasn't the warchief during SoO. He was one character I wonder about as to why was he taken to the Maw in the first place.

You are thinking WAY to small... He was the first educated Orc, he helped bring the new horde together and tried to lead them to become a better people. He was a powerful Shaman, maybe even the strongest. he was HIGHLY respected by Varyn and Anduin and much of the rest of the alliance. He was the EARTH ASPECT while being a mortal. He embodies hope in a way not many other with the exception of Anduin does. The jailor is trying to understand what makes these heroes tick and never give up so that he can use that for himself later.

[MrLachyG]

Unless you are a smooth brain its not hard to see why alliance would rescue Thrall... just in the intro quest there were ALL working together, Jaina was already trying to save Thrall.... So why wouldn't the rest of the Alliance. It is pretty clear everyone needs to work together to get out of this so not sure how it would be "weird"

pretty sure he or she is trolling the person who started this thread https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-from-Torghast

[Soon-TM]

Was it the part that even with the Horde rebels, the Alliance stood no chance of winning? Only reason the Alliance is alive is "muh honor"


I mean if you've been on these forums for as long as I have, it's not surprising. We see it on display quite often.

Remember that for Ally fans, there are genocides and genocides

[Aresk]

Baine didn't lead an assault on an allied capital city. Jaina definitely deserves torture in the mind of Horde players. Thrall also literally saved the world once. Jaina's war crimes are just mounting up.

Quite true. Theramore was not a capital when Baine attacked it. He was instrumental in organizing the Horde efforts in the defense of Zandalar, securing the Horde a foothold to launch two large scale assaults on Kul Tiras, though, which is pretty much why Jaina ended up leading that attack that you mentioned.

Thing is that so far we don't really have a reason why horde would want to rescue specifically Jaina. Sure she's a strong mage etc, but I'm sure maw has plenty of strong characters trapped in it and nothing we have seen so far has screamed "oh shit, we really could use Jaina for this one". All they really needed to do was make it so Alliance and Horde rescue their own heroes.

Also for the rest of the thread, past shitty writing doesn't excuse new shitty writing so arguments like "but Alliance had to do X" are pretty meaningless.

Horde leadership tasks Horde heroes with assisting the Ebon Blade and Bolvar during the pre-patch event. Bolvar tasks Horde heroes with saving Jaina. Do you need more reason than that? It's not like the Horde heroes are stumbling across her and opting to do something; they're tasked by the leader of our efforts in the Shadowlands with the task.

Remember that for Ally fans, there are genocides and genocides

Yeah, both Horde and Alliance fanbases have those members. It's almost like the game consists of two factions with very dark elements to their histories, and people just can't accept that their faction might not have the greatest past.

[Thokri]

woah, this is like watching americans debating politics.


People only believe what they want to believe.

On off-topic, Thrall should have died four expansions ago but metzen's pet just keeps annoying people.