Rescue Jaina from Torghast??

[Venziir]

I suggest you go back and look over the Cata and MoP lore. The Zandalari definitely started warring on both Alliance and Horde in Cata. Start reading up on the 4.1 patch: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_4.1.0

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Except if you bother to read/play through the questline, you find proof that the Sunreavers stole the Divine Bell to give to a bloodthirsty maniac who'd already proven he'd use WMDs without blinking.

And since this thread has devolved into repetitions of beaten to death debunked Horde bullshit, time for the reply those claims deserve.

That said, all of those examples above (minus Theramore) are the results of Sylvanas or the Forsaken - and since it all happened after her suicide, which resulted in her making a pact with the Jailor, it was the result of his meddling. Oh and Andorhall? That was destroyed by the Scourge; not the Horde - it's true that the Horde and Alliance fought over it afterwards and that the Horde won though, but it's destruction did not happen due to the Horde.

[Feanoro]

are they? pretty much we go to their villages during questing and then zulaman, they dont really attack, and even that are more of a skirmishes than war, the war (between amani and aliance) ended years ago... and the troops from zandalar are ONLY inside zulaman, so not realy helping them push blood elfs out of THEIR ancestral lands...
pretty much all zandalari do in zulaman (and zulgurub) is protecting their kin from being killed of by us, and even that not by helping them attack us but rather protect their own cities...

"The days when great troll empires stretched across ancient Kalimdor are long past. Millennia of war and internal strife have stripped these nations of their power, lands, and glory. As Azeroth recovers from the destruction of the Cataclysm, the world's divided troll populations face a bleak future. These dark times have spurred the trolls of the Zandalar, the historically wise and scholarly tribe from which all trolls originated, to take drastic action. They have embarked on a bold crusade to save their race by uniting trolls into a single mighty empire. With the Zandalari's aid, the fallen capitals of the Gurubashi and Amani nations—Zul'Gurub and Zul'Aman—are already rebuilding, replenishing their forces for a bloody campaign to expand their territories."

You don't get to decide canon.

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That said, all of those examples above (minus Theramore) are the results of Sylvanas or the Forsaken - and since it all happened after her suicide, which resulted in her making a pact with the Jailor, it was the result of his meddling. Oh and Andorhall? That was destroyed by the Scourge; not the Horde - it's true that the Horde and Alliance fought over it afterwards and that the Horde won though, but it's destruction did not happen due to the Horde.

I didn't create them. Like others, I just use them when the "Horde did nothing wrong, Alliance is literally Hitler" nonsense becomes strong enough to not deserve refuting.

[Kiri]

yeah, this is complete bullshit
Jaina was not leader, she was ONE OF SIX, so she is roughly 16% of "leader", yet she decided, WITHOUT consulting others to invite alliance soldiers into city (which is FOREIGN ARMY ffs) to arest and kill belf, AFTER cutting their escape roots (you had q to cripple dragonhawks so they cant escape)
btw, rest of the leadership in dalaran admited she was wrong to do so, thats why they allowed sunreavers back to dalaran in legion (took their fucking time)

and yeah, some belfs defended themselves, but what would you do? foreign soldier, without any authority over you whatsoever, comes to YOUR shop that you most likely run before he was even born, and tells you that even though you did nothing you are arested, would you just lie down and obey? especialy since its NOT FIRST TIME belf are being arested by alliance and sentanced to death in dalaran for doing nothing wrong, just out of pure spite and racism?! (if you dont know what im talking check Garithos and frozen throne campaign)

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well first of all Jaina was not leader, but ONE OF SIX (so roughly 16%) of leadership, so perhaps consult the rest first wouldnt be bad idea...
viable alternative to ethnic purge? well, there are many, how about actualy leting sunreavers know something is hapening and start investigating, instead to attack them out of blue while most of them didnt even had slightest idea some of their midst are traitors? sure they would be more likely to cooperate if you tell them what happend instead of summoning ALLIANCE soldiers to swing swords at them...

problem is all alternatives would help her get justice, and thats not what she wanted, she wanted revenge

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them warring on us? i dont remember zandalari ever atacking us, actualy in vanila they were our friends and we helped them in ZG against Hakkar...
perhaps you mean like they send reinforcements to other troll cities WE attacked?

closest they ever get to atacking us afaik was in padaria, and that was fraction that separated from actual zandalari wasnt it? and even then, they didnt realy atack us, they atacked pandaria, which is neither horde nor aliance teritory...

Uh, no, actually. Jaina, when returning to the Kirin Tor, requested to join at the rank of Novice. But because of some random prophecy stuff (weird writing there indeed) the council of six instead specifically asks her to take Rhonin's place as leader of the council and Kirin Tor.

And I am not sure what you mean with the alternative, really. They did broadcast that all Sunreavers were getting rounded up and put into holding. Plus, she specifically first went to the leader of the Sunreavers and basically tries exactly that - telling him to take his people and leave without any fighting. He refused and, at least apparent to her, either lied to her face or had too little control over his own faction to even notice the traitors in his midst. It is only after this that she musters forces to round up the Sunreavers.
I am asking for an alternative to that particular action, because 'letting them know and something is up, otherwise doing nothing' means basically leaving potential hostile roaming freely through the city, ready to plan an uprising or sabotage. In character, she has absolutely no assurances that the theft of the bell is a one-time thing done by individuals. For all she knows, they could be planning to smuggle in a manabomb into Dalaran next. Boiling it down to 'she just wants revenge' misses those concerns completely.

And it doesn't make a lot of sense, either. If her goals had truly been wanton murder and 'ethnic cleansing', this is a horrible way to do it. She clearly could have just annihilated any Sunreaver building in the city from the outside if that was truly her thing, not have them rounded up, brought to prison and....actually, I don't think we ever find out what happens to those imprisoned after. Guess Blizzard just didn't care about them anymore.
Either way, risking her own life and that of others by doing it the way she does instead of striking with extreme prejudice goes against the whole 'vengeance, not justice' thing. This is the same woman who, in pursuit of true vengeance, was about to drown a whole city with a massive tidal wave. But here they go around apprehending people and locking them up unless there is fighting. Clearly, there is restraint being used, even if she is being angry.

With respect to the trolls: Yeah, they weren't exactly neutral anymore. Zandalari trolls siding with the Thunder King might have wanted Pandaria most of all but attacked the Alliance forces there nonetheless with extreme prejudice. Just because they also attacked the Horde doesn't really make them 'neutral'. It just makes them hostile and, in fact, warring on both sides. Sure, they might have been only a splinter group, but I am quite certain that the Alliance never actually finds out about that part. They know that the prophet Zul is behind it. I.e. the guy they find hanging out with the Zandalari princess.

Rastakhan lets his right hand man attack both horde and alliance but still trusts him after. He gives the Horde forces attacking the Alliance and Kul Tirans full access to and protection in his harbor to launch attacks from, while his forces attack alliance on sight. Given that the alliance is not privy to his private thoughts and discussions, I am hard-pressed to find reasons for them to see them as neutral at all. At best they are a hostile faction in the process of joining the Horde proper.That's why they go into the city and try to apprehend the king, to deter them from joining proper. It is the typical alliance restraint at work, again. They don't even try to plant any of those bombs they set throughout the city in the great pyramid to bring it down, nor try to raze the city completely. Instead they pick the much costlier route of going after specific military targets and trying to take prisoners, meaning that they cannot fully utilize their mages, giant gorillas or siege equipment.

[darkoms]

That said, all of those examples above (minus Theramore) are the results of Sylvanas or the Forsaken - and since it all happened after her suicide, which resulted in her making a pact with the Jailor, it was the result of his meddling. Oh and Andorhall? That was destroyed by the Scourge; not the Horde - it's true that the Horde and Alliance fought over it afterwards and that the Horde won though, but it's destruction did not happen due to the Horde.

Oh yes, good Horde, bad Sylvanas. The Horde did not want to do anything, Sylvanas forced them.
God, the Good War said the orcs were thrilled to kill Malfurion. Malfurion! Who saved the world twice! To whom even Thrall, one of the greatest orcs in the world, hero of the Horde and savior of the world in his own right, is treated with respect and reverence. The Horde is just an army of bloodthirsty monsters.

[Arrashi]

Well being allied with nihilistic, cackling and downright evil zombies wearing gimp-masks and plague doctor outfits probably did the trick.

But being downright evil pretty much prevents you from being edgelord.

[Venziir]

But being downright evil pretty much prevents you from being edgelord.

Isn't a character such as the Joker or Sephinroth typical "edgelord" characters? They aren't exactly good guys.

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Oh yes, good Horde, bad Sylvanas. The Horde did not want to do anything, Sylvanas forced them.
God, the Good War said the orcs were thrilled to kill Malfurion. Malfurion! Who saved the world twice! To whom even Thrall, one of the greatest orcs in the world, hero of the Horde and savior of the world in his own right, is treated with respect and reverence. The Horde is just an army of bloodthirsty monsters.

I can see now, that entering this cesspit of a thread was a mistake.

[Arrashi]

Isn't a character such as the Joker or Sephinroth typical "edgelord" characters? They aren't exactly good guys.

They are in a same way all characters are mary sues and everything is plot armor.

The very idea of edgelord was pretty much a good guy wearing bad guy cosmetics which is why iconic "edgelord" and icons of edge were shadow the hedgehog, ryuuko from KlK and "donte" from DMC.

Ironically you could argue that current sylvanas is prime example of edgelord aka "You dun't understaaaaand + greater good". But forsaken as a whole? No fuckin way.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

yeah, this is complete bullshit
Jaina was not leader, she was ONE OF SIX, so she is roughly 16% of "leader"

Kirin Tor does have someone leading the Council of Six and at that point Jaina was leader. This is a fact. Currently Khadgar is the leader. Antonidas and Rhonin were past leaders.

[darkoms]

Isn't a character such as the Joker or Sephinroth typical "edgelord" characters? They aren't exactly good guys.

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I can see now, that entering this cesspit of a thread was a mistake.

Can you start arguing?

[Combatbutler]

Kirin Tor does have someone leading the Council of Six and at that point Jaina was leader. This is a fact. Currently Khadgar is the leader. Antonidas and Rhonin were past leaders.

They might be leaders, but they still can't decide shit on their own. Prime example legion, Jaina didn't want the horde in dalaran and was outvoted

[loras]

Honestly by now i'd like them to just let the Alliance do something genuinelly terrible so that this sorta talk could actually be interesting.
Like let us cleanse Lordaeron in purging flames, let us resurrect Ragnaros in the light just for the one purpose of burning all forsaken and blood elven stuff off the face of the eastern kingdoms in holy fire.
And like don't even give a good explanation for it, just an orgy of inexcusable zealously fiery violence, so that we may finally be on genuinely equal footing with the horde.

Also for the sake of letting Ragnaros the lightlord use the Sunwell as a hot tub, as that idea cracks me up.


Oh and burn the trolls too, in case they thought we were sorry.

[Combatbutler]

Honestly by now i'd like them to just let the Alliance do something genuinelly terrible so that this sorta talk could actually be interesting.
Like let us cleanse Lordaeron in purging flames, let us resurrect Ragnaros in the light just for the one purpose of burning all forsaken and blood elven stuff off the face of the eastern kingdoms in holy fire.
And like don't even give a good explanation for it, just an orgy of inexcusable zealously fiery violence, so that we may finally be on genuinely equal footing with the horde.

Also for the sake of letting Ragnaros the lightlord use the Sunwell as a hot tub, as that idea cracks me up.


Oh and burn the trolls too, in case they thought we were sorry.

Attacking the belves would be counterproductive to Alliance cohesion, several of their members have the distinct desire to get them on the Alliance, if you want to do something shady that has little consequence on internal Alliance strife, yet is genuinely terrible massacre the tauren

[Arrashi]

Honestly by now i'd like them to just let the Alliance do something genuinelly terrible so that this sorta talk could actually be interesting.
Like let us cleanse Lordaeron in purging flames, let us resurrect Ragnaros in the light just for the one purpose of burning all forsaken and blood elven stuff off the face of the eastern kingdoms in holy fire.
And like don't even give a good explanation for it, just an orgy of inexcusable zealously fiery violence, so that we may finally be on genuinely equal footing with the horde.

Also for the sake of letting Ragnaros the lightlord use the Sunwell as a hot tub, as that idea cracks me up.


Oh and burn the trolls too, in case they thought we were sorry.

But that won't happen because alliance is by nature too bland for anything like that. Compare "free-range" lightbound and alliance "sugar-free" versions.

[loras]

Attacking the belves would be counterproductive to Alliance cohesion, several of their members have the distinct desire to get them on the Alliance, if you want to do something shady that has little consequence on internal Alliance strife, yet is genuinely terrible massacre the tauren

No way, the beefs should be loved, not slaughtered.
Also slaughtering the belfs FOR THE LIGHT while allowing the high elves reclaim it could be sold to much of the alliance. Hell it could even set the stage for the sudden but ineviteble betrayal of the void elves by the light crazed crazies who will become raid fodder like all crazies before them.

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But that won't happen because alliance is by nature too bland for anything like that. Compare "free-range" lightbound and alliance "sugar-free" versions.

I know, but nothing is so constant as change.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

but they still can't decide shit on their own.

Where did I say that? Please quote me.

[Combatbutler]

No way, the beefs should be loved, not slaughtered.

That is precisely why they should be the target, not to mention slaughtering belves for the light doesn't make sense because they have quite a few light worshipers, the tauren on the other hand would be heathens and most people in the Alliance already view them as beasts.

Also slaughtering the belfs FOR THE LIGHT while allowing the high elves reclaim it could be sold to much of the alliance. Hell it could even set the stage for the sudden but ineviteble betrayal of the void elves by the light crazed crazies who will become raid fodder like all crazies before them.

The high elves would not welcome the desecration of their most holy site and the destruction of their home, nor would they welcome the extinction of their race.

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Where did I say that? Please quote me.

You made it sound as if Kirin tor leaders were special, I merely pointed out that the Leadership position on the council is worthless and they are are all equal at the end of the day.

[loras]

That is precisely why they should be the target, not to mention slaughtering belves for the light doesn't make sense because they have quite a few light worshipers, the tauren on the other hand would be heathens and most people in the Alliance already view them as beasts.



The high elves would not welcome the desecration of their most holy site and the destruction of their home, nor would they welcome the extinction of their race.

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You made it sound as if Kirin tor leaders were special, I merely pointed out that the Leadership position on the council is worthless and they are are all equal at the end of the day.

The tauren praise the sun for longer than the blood elves.

And the high elves would not go extinct, it's just that their unclean brethren would be driven to kalimdor.
Also having Ragnaros, Lord of Light, take a bath in the sunwell would be the opposite of desecration.

[Ragnarohk]

Why do people get so intense when they dicuss this topic? Imaginary people doing imaginary things in an imaginary world.

Discussing lore is fine, but the level of emotion (mostly negative) that people put into it is worrisome

[Combatbutler]

The tauren praise the sun for longer than the blood elves.

Not light worship, a decent paladin would purge them.

And the high elves would not go extinct, it's just that their unclean brethren would be driven to kalimdor.

Their unclean brethren are necessary for the race to survive

Also having Ragnaros, Lord of Light, take a bath in the sunwell would be the opposite of desecration.

Tauren shitting in Moonwells enhances their natural powers as well, instead of desecrating them.

[loras]

Not light worship, a decent paladin would purge them.


Their unclean brethren are necessary for the race to survive



Tauren shitting in Moonwells enhances their natural powers as well.

Nonsense, the tauren would just drive any such "paladins" with their Power Word: Moo and Blessing of the Lightudder!

Nah, the blood ekves are mainly good at getting themselves killed, the Quel'dorei are a viable population.

And now i want a quest about tauren shitting in moonwells.