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  1. #101
    waaaaaah sub rogues actually do damage for the first time in 4 years and aren't relegated to a cc bot in arenas waaaaah they can vanish and reset the fight they are such pussies stand here and fight me toe to toe like a man, nevermind their class is literally designed around the fact that they can turn invisible QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

    hyperbole aside, rogues have a legendary that reduces the cooldown of all abilities by 20 seconds when they vanish, giving them access to double kick/kidney. if you wanna be mad at anything be mad at that.
    Last edited by Djanco; 2020-12-13 at 09:39 AM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Djanco View Post
    waaaaaah sub rogues actually do damage for the first time in 4 years and aren't relegated to a cc bot in arenas waaaaah they can vanish and reset the fight they are such pussies stand here and fight me toe to toe like a man, nevermind their class is literally designed around the fact that they can turn invisible QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

    hyperbole aside, rogues have a legendary that reduces the cooldown of all abilities by 20 seconds when they vanish, giving them access to double kick/kidney. if you wanna be mad at anything be mad at that.
    Hard to choose what to be mad at when it comes to rogues right now. So many things, including sub rogues who say they're fine.

  3. #103
    If multi rank 1 players who are currently 2.4k + in 3’s cry about sub nerfs, when they barely ever do so for any spec, don’t you think sub is a bit overtuned? Lol

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Crying about rogue nerfs is the most unoriginal cry in the history of wow. First time I heard such a demand was 2004 three days after launch. Back then it was like "i couldn't see the rogue before they opened on me". Honestly, ask any rogue they ll tell you hunters/DH/ele shamans/SP/ferals/Arms warriors/Affli warlols/Arc Mages/boomies are fking sick at the moment. People just love attributing their own problems on rogues. Fix your gear some, play better, be alert, rogues won't ever be a problem.

    Btw as a rogue the only class that doesn't stress me is fighting another rogue. Or you think we don't attack each other. We just know how to kill rogue.
    Mate, you are literally saying that the best of the best, the people who play this game the most and have the most knowledge, are wrong and that you are right. They have a lot of gear already with a lot of vers to counter burst, but it legit does not matter. Sure, sub isn't the only spec that can kill people without being able to react to it atm, but it is the only spec that has gone without nerfs so far. The ignorance is way too high right here.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Well it seems the devs know better and calling me an ignorant just shows your ignorance at who's in charge. Also your understanding of "the best of the best" is based on your choice of streamers which just shows shallow and limited understanding of the game by an impressionable minor. Take care now
    My "understanding" is not based off of streamers, but ACTUAL multi rank 1 players, some who have been literally the best in the world winning blizzcon. It's funny how people would go to such lengths for their class not to get nerfed when it's deserved. Why don't you link me your armory so I can decide whether it's even worth it to argue with you, doubt it is to be honest.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    You are new to the forum (and obviously in game) so let me tell you that getting personal with me won't end well for you. As I explained and you refuse to understand (or worse you are unable to understand) I AM NOT IN CHARGE OF ROGUES. So, all that being said, whether multi glads think or you think or your mom and dad think or I think, does NOT mean fuck all.

    What the devs think is what matters and from what I see they buff damage of certain classes and they don't seem to have a problem with rogues at the moment. If a problem existed as its so exaggerated rest assured that they would have listened to the whines of paying customers because THE DOLLAR and THE EURO are what matters most to Blizzard. The fact that they haven't says all we need to know.

    So, live with it or play another game. Don't come here wasting my time with what you think you know.
    Yeah, I didn't think so, I'm done.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    What the devs think is what matters and from what I see they buff damage of certain classes and they don't seem to have a problem with rogues at the moment.
    This is a non-statement. Before hacking MM hunters down you could have said "they don't seem to have a problem with MM hunters."

    These are the same devs that, you know, put the imbalances in the game in the first place.

    What we think and communicate on forums does matter to the devs.

    Blizzard plays a numbers game with certain posters / forums / feedback threads, and aside from their own internal testing, when there are enough people posting the exact same thing they do take notice and prioritize the issue.

    Their same internal tests concluded that MM hunters were fine. The same MM hunters that were ravaging people in beta, and in pre-patch, and post-launch.

    Anecdotally, sub rogues are grossly overpowered and they will receive nerfs. I say that as both a 2k sub rogue as of a few hours ago and a tank that has been on the other end of it.

    They are only really this strong in small-group PVP, so it took this first week of PVP to really see it in action, in arenas. M+R/(?) should not be able to do what they do to tanks, and that's even worse for non-tanks. No other class and combo can force things so early, so easily. Ironically, the best counter to a sub rogue? An MM hunter burning them and forcing them off their target, simply because of the range.

    MM hunters aren't that big of a deal in arenas simply due to pillars, but where they were obviously ridiculous is in open world and battlegrounds. They pressed 2 buttons and did more damage with baseline+talents than classes using multiple cooldowns + covenant abilities, ie, outbursting the hunt is silly, right?

    sub rogue is really in the same boat. It doesn't need to be, there is a reason the skill ceiling was basically one of the highest. Now that it basically isn't due to the additional burst, it will be brought down.

    This isn't an argument, it's inevitable and doesn't really make a diff to the top end of arena play. perhaps they can salvage it in BG play or PVE but I really can't see how besides overhauling what the abilities do specifically in those situations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    The pvp season is 3 and a half days old, only the tryhards rush to hit an artificially high rating while the rest are gearing and then sit on it playing low effort games for half the season. As I said, if you wasnt new in wow you would know these works. So spare us opinions based on 3 and a half days rated pvp.
    This expansion doesn't work the same as past PVP seasons, so before you call out people for being "new" perhaps you should look and see how the gear-up works based on the vault and how much honor you've pulled out of rated pvp.

    You contradict yourself by stating "the rest are gearing" because gearing requires honor grind in rated via pvp.

    https://media.mmo-champion.com/image...ultpreview.jpg for your reference.
    Last edited by frott; 2020-12-13 at 11:39 AM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Anecdotal evidence leading to definite outcome. Only in MMOC you can read such gems.
    Who led to a definite outcome? I used the word anecdotal to mean "in my experience."

    You seem to require hard proof of dev intent when you should know that nobody has that except the devs. Just like nobody had it 5 minutes before the MM nerf.



    Good for you to rush 2k in the first 2-3 days when everyone tries to cap in quest gear. However I would love to see you try from scratch a month from now and tell me how far you went.
    Again, see my edit, apparently you don't even know how PVP gearing works.

    "Tries to cap in quest gear?" K. Have fun pulling 6500 honor out of PVP in quest gear, I guess. No idea what your issue is with that?

    Is your assertion that good players are simply not PVPing or something? That nobody will make use of the highest gear they can get next week, etc?


    I'll be gladiator whenever I bother, unsure what your point is. But I am sure you have no idea how arena even works anymore, yet you are still posting.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by frott View Post
    This expansion doesn't work the same as past PVP seasons, so before you call out people for being "new" perhaps you should look and see how the gear-up works based on the vault and how much honor you've pulled out of rated pvp.

    You contradict yourself by stating "the rest are gearing" because gearing requires honor grind in rated via pvp.

    https://media.mmo-champion.com/image...ultpreview.jpg for your reference.
    Don't even try to argue with this guy, he just assumes that anyone who disagrees with him are either new to the game or just bad. I've been glad multiple times as a shaman but apparently my input isn't valid because people way better than me agrees with me and disagrees with him.
    Last edited by beepediboop; 2020-12-13 at 11:49 AM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post

    You cannot open the vault atm so whatever is inside is irrelevant. You can get your honor gear to M0 status and anything better requires running dungeons or have renowned 22 to develop your honor gear further.
    You have no point, now you're trying to prove you understand how the vault works, but 2 posts ago you said "the only people bothering are tryhards" like capping higher on Tuesday has no value? OK.

    This is why casuals who want rating push their hearts out now because every day the window to 2+K is shrinking and 10 days from now you will need some skill to aquire it.
    That makes no sense at all. No casual is hitting 2k because they "push their hearts out now."

    One of the main vectors why it is more difficult is because they cannot beat OTHER casuals who have lesser gear. If you use skill as a determinant, the "skilled" players win even when undergeared.

    Your logic is just wrong. You claim the window shrinks every day so casuals push to get rating now, but THE THING THAT SHRINKS THE WINDOW are casual players losing ILVL advantage through m+/lowcap getting the gear.


    You're also confusing "pushing rating" with just grinding honor. I'm 2k because when I was grinding honor in arenas, I won. That made it faster than other sources of honor. I'm still nowhere near rated cap for vault... again, look how many wins that takes:

    https://media.mmo-champion.com/image...ultpreview.jpg


    And FWIW, I play for fun, not competitively. IE, I enjoy the arenas until I get bored and stop. I'm not motivated by caps / efficiency. I would have played exactly the same amount of games if I didn't have a carrot to chase for the vault cap, and if that landed me barely at 1500. The part that's missing from the vault diagram is your rating ALSO changes ilvl of your reward. Just like in raids doing 3 heroic bosses changes it over 3 normals, and m+ is altered by best 1/4/10


    But hey, I also won't exactly turn down having an ilvl advantage for countering or being the misbalanced sub rogue

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by beepediboop View Post
    Don't even try to argue with this guy, he just assumes that anyone who disagrees with him are either new to the game or just bad. I've been glad multiple times as a shaman but apparently my input isn't valid because people way better than me agrees with me and disagrees with him.
    I'm not one to argue, I know I'm correct and look for any opportunity to learn how I'm not. I'm not seeing any here. I just see someone regurgitating meme BS they read on whatever h4rdc0re arena forum that doesn't really apply to this season. I only bothered responding because they were trying to pull the "you must be new, this is how it goes" while ignoring that the entire system is different. Shrug. Show me where you could get week 1 max-level rewards by spiking rating in any other season in the history of wow?

    Yes, there is still the essence of people trying to get ahead on week 1, but it isn't the same and it is blizzard's attempt to make arena not appear as restrictive as it has in the past.

    All of the anecdotes they're sharing about gameplay patterns ignores that previously the "early push" had very, very little to do with actual PVP gear and was people using PVE advantage in PVP while people only interested in arena had to sit on their thumbs to wait for the matching loot.

    That's NOT the case any more, as directly posted repeatedly on this forum: arena gear caps the highest, if anything, PVE people will do arena for PVE advantage. I 100% guarantee that mythic raids will have PVP gear in their world firsts.
    Last edited by frott; 2020-12-13 at 12:02 PM.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    The fact that you feel the need to “argue” instead of having a civilized conversation is the problem here. You come to the forum to tell us how great you are. No one gives a fuck mate. Say your 2 cents and be gone why you have to argue with anyone?
    Excuse me, what? Arguing is the only thing you have been doing in this topic. You're doing nothing but trying to discredit people who don't agree with you, not to mention you being biased as well.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    The quote is irrelevant but I couldn’t bother to find exact piece out of your essay.

    Rating has its own value. I only play for rating. So those who only push rating know that the easiest way to do it is NOW.

    You have put so many irrelevant things in the same basket it just doesn’t make sense. At the end of the day if rogues deserve a nerf they will get nerfed and if you have a problem don’t play until the day this happens.

    Insulting me doesn’t do shit for you it just shows someone who is salty because they can’t win every time. So go play cyberpunk and come back when they nerf us. Good enough? Insulting me will not bring the nerfs nearer.

    Stop playing until nerfs mate.

    you said above:

    "Good for you to rush 2k in the first 2-3 days when everyone tries to cap in quest gear.However I would love to see you try from scratch a month from now and tell me how far you went."


    CAP = getting high rating AND 6500 honor. You get different rewards for however high rating you get, even on week 1. So you claiming people will even come remotely close to capping in quest gear is laughable. In your fantasy is some casual pillowbiter losing 150 games to go from 130 blues to have a single 230 epic?

    Besides, if you capped in quest gear, you'd have 6500 honor to spend and you'd not be in quest gear. Oops. So literally nobody is trying to "cap in quest gear." In fact Mythic gear saturated is higher than most people have in arena and it is still dubious if the 2x trinket with 40% vers is worth it.


    You don't know how shadowlands arena works.

    Are you insulted because I'm pointing out that you don't know the basics of the system and so it makes you look foolish by claiming you do? Why are you bringing your feelings into it?


    Further, it isn't irrelevant. I explained a scenario that countered your "only casuals tryhard blee blah i'm a memelord parroting twitter posts" nonsense. I played arenas because they were fun, and I stopped well before cap.

    YOU made the mistake of thinking cap is just "conquest cap" which it is not. You can only get 550c worth of gear, a 200 item. By hitting high rating and 6500 you'll be getting the highest item level possible, even over heroic raiding. It doesn't matter if you do it this week or wheneve you deem "skilled players do it," eventually you'll do it.


    And you're telling someone to stop playing a video game, on a video game forum, because "only devs can divine the future" and opinions don't matter.

    Welcome to the internet? It's odd that you are playing the wounded bully when someone shoves your illogic back in your mouth... sorry it tastes so bad, but it's what YOU said.


    Like you said "only on MMOC" can someone post blatantly incorrect info, get mad about it when people correct them, then make 17 tangential arguments while, what, pretending that everyone else just forgot that you don't even know how the vault works? M'kay. What's funny is if you go on ANY arena forum they're all talking about this grind and how easy it will be to casual stomp on literally week 2. Yet somehow you're... not? Kay.
    Last edited by frott; 2020-12-13 at 12:54 PM.

  13. #113
    The baseline gear is ALWAYS the one you will be equipping for the most time. Honor gear rank 1 lasted me 1 hour or so. Then it was HC level and 2 days later was replaced by m+ gear.
    Yeah no. A baseline is where you start, not the end result. Just because that's what you want to define it as, doesn't make it so my dear.

    And if they actually fixed the classes at their base then adjust spell and ability scaling from there so they all grow at an equal or close to equal rate they wouldn't have all these problems that keep occurring over and over and over and over expansion after expansion patch cycle after patch cycle.

    But you're right...i'm sure higher stats will fix the problem this time and not exacerbate it like every time before this....this time it'll work...it's not gonna be like resilience....no no not this time!

    The trinket bonus is going to end up being the biggest problem once we reach geared up phase of this patch. Giving everyone a damage increase at a 2.8 to 1 ratio with damage mitigation totally won't blow up in everyone's faces later.
    Last edited by blankfaced; 2020-12-13 at 05:06 PM.
    I'm a thread killer.

  14. #114
    So let's sum it up.

    There's a dude who's exploiting the free pass for 2k that's sub rogues right now and is claiming rogues are fine in a hunters' thread?

  15. #115
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    Yeah, this Motorman guy. Either he's a really bad troll, or a very entitled rogue. Sad he can't solo kill tanks in pvp. lmao.
    I 3d print stuff

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    If I press Remorseless Winter, a Sub rogue can't deal damage anymore because they're rooted. Then after they break out of that, I can stun them for 5 seconds, then after chains them. I can basically shut down their damage entirely for 10 seconds if I want.
    There is nothing more "feelsbadman" than getting rooted as a sub rogue when cloak and trinket are on CD. Oh boy, I can shuriken toss before being turned into mush.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    There is nothing more "feelsbadman" than getting rooted as a sub rogue when cloak and trinket are on CD. Oh boy, I can shuriken toss before being turned into mush.
    And Vanish...and Blind.

    Basically you need to have 4 things on cd in order for a root to hurt. Meanwhile most other classes and specs have 2, except ret paladins who have 3.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by The Butt Witch View Post
    And Vanish...and Blind.

    Basically you need to have 4 things on cd in order for a root to hurt. Meanwhile most other classes and specs have 2, except ret paladins who have 3.
    I play way more RBGs than arena; It's not uncommon to have used all of your CDs if you're in an extended teamfight.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    I play way more RBGs than arena; It's not uncommon to have used all of your CDs if you're in an extended teamfight.
    you are not scratching the problem which is that rogue have more ways to control and escape fights than anyone else ;P

    "Hope for the best and prepare for the worst"

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Well it seems the devs know better and calling me an ignorant just shows your ignorance at who's in charge. Also your understanding of "the best of the best" is based on your choice of streamers which just shows shallow and limited understanding of the game by an impressionable minor. Take care now

    P.S. I am not in charge of rogues so kindly take your whines to the official wow forum where actual devs might hear your complains and have a laugh.
    Indeed the devs know 100% better than you do. 6 massive nerfs today. Enjoy. "Rogue is fine git gud." XD XD XD XD XD We all knew it except you I guess.

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