Winter queen origins & relatives

[username993720]

Often? I'm not sure they did it at all so far. People just keep claiming they do, but usually the so-called retcons are actually expansions that simply weren't in the Chronicles.

And no, they don't "have a habit" of canonising the RPG, especially not lately. If anything, as time passes, they keep going further away from it.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/World_of_W...nconsistencies

https://wow.gamepedia.com/World_of_W...nconsistencies

https://wow.gamepedia.com/World_of_W...nconsistencies

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft_RPG#Trivia

[qwerty123456]

You coming up with names is, hardly, comparable with that of Blizzard's.

Most likely. Therefore, they had to use the suffix "lisk" to explain its extra legs:
"More specifically, Warcraft's basilisks appear to be heavily influenced by the multi-legged, lizard-like basilisks of Dungeons & Dragons."

There is a reason why they call it a Crocolisk, while other animals, mostly, get to be named after their real-life equivalents:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Beast#List_of_beasts

We, also, have Saurolisk, as of BFA - a name combination of a Saurok and a Basilisk.

Again with the youth... you don't know how old she is. I've already explained that her prankster nature comes from being a faerie, not a child. The Faeries of Ardenweald are, clearly, as Blizzard explained already, related to Winter and Autumn. Hence, the Ardenweald appearance. Lady Moonberry is not a random Faerie. She is what you would call an important NPC, like the Stewards Mikanikos and Sika in Bastion; the Aranakk Akarek, Domina Venomblade and Kearnen the Blade & the Ossein Bonesmith Heirmir in Maldraxxus; the Stoneborn General Draven, the Stonefiend Temel in Revendreth; and the Broker Ve'nari in the Maw.

You put too much weight on her existence, like she is the only important creature in Ardenweald. We, also, have the Sylvar Ara'lon (who got an afterlife animation, not Lady Moonberry), the Vorkai Lord Herne and the Tirnenn Droman Oulfarran.

She is a Faerie, a magical creature. like Kyrian bestow you with Bastion's power in Bastion. Lord Herne, a Vorkai, Lord Renard, a Vulpine and Ysera are, also, part of the Court of Night, without the title droman.



That's what everybody here is trying to figure out. Who Ysera could be a pet of? Therefore, we assume she would have a connection to her "owner". It's not regarding it as truth, it's speculating based on the pieces of information we've got. Currently, with what we have in hand, we only have two options: Elune and Eonar. a third option would be an unknown character, which is not based on anything in game. my basis for an unknown Summer Queen is based on outside sources, like mythology. If you have a better suggestion, do let us know.

I never regarded it as a valid source. But, Blizzard has a habit, as of lately, to turn RPG information into canon information - as in the case of much of the Chronicles. Blizzard, also, tends to retcon Chronicles since it came out, as they have to come up with new lore that often contradicts it.

My naming conventions aren't comparable and yet I already linked you one creature the hyrdalisk that doesn't follow your naming convention.

So you agree with me that it likely wasn't based on a basilisk and instead of making a low to the ground model with 4 legs they just made a new skin for the basilisk one they already had. Clearly a crocolisk is based on a crocodile and not a basilisk.

"Mostly" and yet not all. HMMMM.......

And your Saurolisk doesn't have 6 limbs. also "The saurolisk model is named "komodo dragon" in the files.
They bear some physical resemblance to marine iguanas.
One coloration of saurolisk, currently only seen on some Saurolisk Matriarchs, seems to be based on that of Gila monsters."

So which is it do names/suffix mean anything or don't they? Need I remind you that Brutosaurs were named brontosaurus in the files. So am I right about Brutosaurs being based on Brutus from popeye or are you wrong?

Fairies are representative of youth which is why they are small and like playing pranks and shit. What don't you understand about that? And I put too much importance and yet she has the power to bomb the fuck out of the Drust, was overseeing half the zone, and is in the queens court. With her help we literally kill more drust than any other npc in Ardenweld. Did sika and Mikanikos do anything even close to that? Or any of the other names you mentioned? "Mikanikos, the Forelite Prime, in charge of the Eternal Forge and the creation of all Centurion constructs, is considered the wisest and smartest of all the stewards." And yet even he needs our help to craft and kill shit. He even becomes a soulbind where as Lady Moonberry doesn't and yet she can infuse us with the power of Ardenweld. Did Mikanikos do that about Bastion? No? Oh did anyone else do something similar? No they didnt.

Yes Lord Herne has the title and is the leader of the Wild Hunt, Lord Renard is likely a super powerful god as one of his children easily ports all over the Shadowlands in seconds, and the Winter Queen seemingly gives up some of her lifeforce to bind Ysera to Ardenweld (one of the leaves on her horns falls as she does so). So pray tell why would Lady Moonberry hold the same title as the guy who controls the Wild Hunt, a dragon who was bound to Ardenweld itself and now is a part of it, and a seemingly powerful fox who has children (Renny) that are capable of traveling all across the shadowlands in the blink of an eye?

[huth]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/World_of_W...nconsistencies

https://wow.gamepedia.com/World_of_W...nconsistencies

https://wow.gamepedia.com/World_of_W...nconsistencies

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft_RPG#Trivia

Yes? Those are about things retconned by the Chronicles, not things in the Chronicles being retconned.

[username993720]

My naming conventions aren't comparable and yet I already linked you one creature the hyrdalisk that doesn't follow your naming convention.

So you agree with me that it likely wasn't based on a basilisk and instead of making a low to the ground model with 4 legs they just made a new skin for the basilisk one they already had. Clearly a crocolisk is based on a crocodile and not a basilisk.

"Mostly" and yet not all. HMMMM.......

And your Saurolisk doesn't have 6 limbs. also "The saurolisk model is named "komodo dragon" in the files.
They bear some physical resemblance to marine iguanas.
One coloration of saurolisk, currently only seen on some Saurolisk Matriarchs, seems to be based on that of Gila monsters."

So which is it do names/suffix mean anything or don't they? Need I remind you that Brutosaurs were named brontosaurus in the files. So am I right about Brutosaurs being based on Brutus from popeye or are you wrong?

Fairies are representative of youth which is why they are small and like playing pranks and shit. What don't you understand about that? And I put too much importance and yet she has the power to bomb the fuck out of the Drust, was overseeing half the zone, and is in the queens court. With her help we literally kill more drust than any other npc in Ardenweld. Did sika and Mikanikos do anything even close to that? Or any of the other names you mentioned? "Mikanikos, the Forelite Prime, in charge of the Eternal Forge and the creation of all Centurion constructs, is considered the wisest and smartest of all the stewards." And yet even he needs our help to craft and kill shit. He even becomes a soulbind where as Lady Moonberry doesn't and yet she can infuse us with the power of Ardenweld. Did Mikanikos do that about Bastion? No? Oh did anyone else do something similar? No they didnt.

Yes Lord Herne has the title and is the leader of the Wild Hunt, Lord Renard is likely a super powerful god as one of his children easily ports all over the Shadowlands in seconds, and the Winter Queen seemingly gives up some of her lifeforce to bind Ysera to Ardenweld (one of the leaves on her horns falls as she does so). So pray tell why would Lady Moonberry hold the same title as the guy who controls the Wild Hunt, a dragon who was bound to Ardenweld itself and now is a part of it, and a seemingly powerful fox who has children (Renny) that are capable of traveling all across the shadowlands in the blink of an eye?

A Hydralisk is from another game, based on science fiction, not mythology. That's why Xel'naga do not relate to Naga.

These constraints, probably, compelled them to, somewhat, base it on the Basilisk. Crocodiles do not have whiskers, fins on their backs or spikes on their head and tail.

They're not quite Saurok as well. The suffix "lisk" is, probably, given to reptilian creatures because of the Basilisk being a Serpent/Reptilian.

Heck, the Common Basilisk, somewhat, resembles the Crocolisk:



Brutus from popeye is not a mythological creature. The suffix Saur in Devilsaur, Brutosaur, Platysaur and Ravasaur is intended to imply their relations to the Dinosaur family.

Oh, so because she can do some powerful magic, she's on an Eternal One power level? Do tell me how powerful we are, and those accompanying us every expansion (Jaina, Thrall, Baine, Anduin, Morgraine, Khadgar, Varian etc..) are, literally, gods for killing waves after waves of enemy mobs. Oh, and how Wrathion and Khadgar infuse us with Draconic or Arcane powers. They must, all, be related to the Winter Queen.

Lord Renard is a, probably, the fox Wild God of Azeroth. teleporting around isn't, particularly, baffling, as activating Soulshape teleports you. no mention of him being very powerful.

Lord Herne, leader or not, is a Vorkai, not said to be extremely powerful or anything.

Would you consider the two of them the sister of the Winter Queen? or any of the major characters accompanying us?

It's not so much a title, emphasizing power, than it is a group title (like the Earthern Ring or the Cenarion Circle).
The Court of Night is the court of the Winter Queen of Ardenweald. It is composed primarily of the droman of each the Tirna trees, the leaders of the Wild Hunt, and a few other members. Meetings are held in the Heart of the Forest.

Race(s): Tirnenn, Faerie, Vorkai, Wild God. It is just an assortment of Ardenweald creatures.

"The anima drought and the Drust invasion consume the Winter Queen and the Wild Hunt's attention, leaving the droman of the Court of Night to protect the wildseeds and defend their groves."

"Droman is a title for some of the Ardenweald leaders, most of which belong to the Court of Night." a title, not a power level.

"It is possible Ara'lon was the Droman of Tirna Noch." i guess Ara'lon is an extremely powerful Sylvar. maybe, he is the sister of the Winter Queen?

or, perhaps, anything that is powerful or childlike.

I think you're just fanboying over her. Your obsession with her seems, quite, out of the ordinary. like a Sylvanas fanatic...

Infracted.

Yes? Those are about things retconned by the Chronicles, not things in the Chronicles being retconned.

"The spirits of departed animals on Azeroth travel to the Emerald Dream as their afterlife, with the mighty G'Hanir in particular serving as the home to the spirits of winged creatures.[11] The Wild Gods, having been linked to the Dream by Freya, also come here after dying, as do members of the green dragonflight such as Ysera and the former Dragons of Nightmare. Some druids, such as Elerethe Renferal and Thaon Moonclaw, do as well, though it is unclear if all druids do." - retconed with Shadowlands being the afterlife of animals, Ysera and Wild Gods.

"World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1 mentions that some Val'kyr split from the Valarjar after Odyn and his forces were imprisoned within the Halls of Valor and disappeared into the Shadowlands to watch over the physical world and occasionally guide the dead back to the realm of the living,[7] implying that they became the spirit healers. However, Shadowlands revealed that spirit healers are actually kyrian."

"The nathrezim were one of the original races of demons born from the chaotic energies of the Twisting Nether. - "In Revendreth, the Accuser tells Sire Denathrius "You were once the lord of dread",[35] this "lord of dread" could mean Denathrius was a dreadlord himself. Also in Revendreth, the tower that was formerly overlooking Sinfall right next to the Sanctum's entrance is named the Spire of the Unseen Guests (the dreadlords sometimes refer to themselves as "thal'kituun" in their language, which means "the unseen guests"). Additionally, it is in the Tower of the Unseen Guests that the book [Enemy Infiltration - Preface] is found, which has led to speculation that the book is a report to Denathrius, or Denathrius reporting to someone else, about the forces of Death fighting the other five aspects of the Warcraft cosmology. Sinfall was also once the workshop of Denathrius, where he performed experiments,[36] and it was a place of dark magic that eventually led the Light to retaliate and scorch the Ember Ward.[37] Given the nathrezim are called "Unseen Guests", the top of Sinfall has the Spire of the Unseen Guests, and Z'rali states that these "unseen ones" consider Denathrius to be their "Sire", it seems to further solidify the notion that Sire Denathrius possibly made the dreadlords."

"The nerubian architectural style was inspired by Maldraxxus and its Deathly influence.[18] The Lich King later adopted the style for his Scourge after the War of the Spider[7] and so ziggurats, the big Necropolises Naxxramas and Acherus refer to their building style. Of course, most of the architecture can be seen in Azjol-Nerub itself. Another good example of their style is the statue in the Pit of Fiends."

Maldraxxus is the birthplace of necromantic magic[6] and home to the forces that were called upon by the Lich King and the Scourge on Azeroth. "The Burning Legion had experimented with the undead for at least ten thousand years, with the first hint of the Scourge's creation being an experiment by the nathrezim to raise undead night elves in the ruins of Suramar during the War of the Ancients."

"It was originally stated Frostmourne was forged by the Lich King.[13] Later it was stated both it and the Helm of Domination were made by the nathrezim.[14] of the Burning Legion[15] When they crafted Frostmourne, as a precaution, they shielded themselves from its power so that their souls wouldn't be consumed by the blade upon being defeated, but instead, they would return to the Twisting Nether,[16] as the souls of demons normally do. Their current origin as creations of the Runecarver were introduced in Shadowlands." "It was originally stated that the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne were crafted by the dreadlords, before Shadowlands retconned this with the origin being the Runecarver instead."

[huth]

<text>

None of that is on the pages you linked. And far from all of it is irreconcilable with the Chronicles. E.g. it's perfectly possible the rogue Val'kyr actually joined the Kyrians, making both claims true. They were kind of dead, after all.

"It was originally stated that the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne were crafted by the dreadlords, before Shadowlands retconned this with the origin being the Runecarver instead."

This is actually incorrect; the Runecarver had the plans, but he was not the one who created the items. This is quite clearly shown in-game when you deliver the 15th memory.

[qwerty123456]

A Hydralisk is from another game, based on science fiction, not mythology. That's why Xel'naga do not relate to Naga.

These constraints, probably, compelled them to, somewhat, base it on the Basilisk. Crocodiles do not have whiskers, fins on their backs or spikes on their head and tail.

They're not quite Saurok as well. The suffix "lisk" is, probably, given to reptilian creatures because of the Basilisk being a Serpent/Reptilian.

Heck, the Common Basilisk, somewhat, resembles the Crocolisk:



Brutus from popeye is not a mythological creature. The suffix Saur in Devilsaur, Brutosaur, Platysaur and Ravasaur is intended to imply their relations to the Dinosaur family.

Oh, so because she can do some powerful magic, she's on an Eternal One power level? Do tell me how powerful we are, and those accompanying us every expansion (Jaina, Thrall, Baine, Anduin, Morgraine, Khadgar, Varian etc..) are, literally, gods for killing waves after waves of enemy mobs. Oh, and how Wrathion and Khadgar infuse us with Draconic or Arcane powers. They must, all, be related to the Winter Queen.

Lord Renard is a, probably, the fox Wild God of Azeroth. teleporting around isn't, particularly, baffling, as activating Soulshape teleports you. no mention of him being very powerful.

Lord Herne, leader or not, is a Vorkai, not said to be extremely powerful or anything.

Would you consider the two of them the sister of the Winter Queen? or any of the major characters accompanying us?

It's not so much a title, emphasizing power, than it is a group title (like the Earthern Ring or the Cenarion Circle).
The Court of Night is the court of the Winter Queen of Ardenweald. It is composed primarily of the droman of each the Tirna trees, the leaders of the Wild Hunt, and a few other members. Meetings are held in the Heart of the Forest.

Race(s): Tirnenn, Faerie, Vorkai, Wild God. It is just an assortment of Ardenweald creatures.

"The anima drought and the Drust invasion consume the Winter Queen and the Wild Hunt's attention, leaving the droman of the Court of Night to protect the wildseeds and defend their groves."

"Droman is a title for some of the Ardenweald leaders, most of which belong to the Court of Night." a title, not a power level.

"It is possible Ara'lon was the Droman of Tirna Noch." i guess Ara'lon is an extremely powerful Sylvar. maybe, he is the sister of the Winter Queen?

or, perhaps, anything that is powerful or childlike.

I think you're just fanboying over her. Your obsession with her seems, quite, out of the ordinary. like a Sylvanas fanatic...

A hydralisk from a Blizzard game. Clearly a crocolisk looks more crocodilian than anything. Crocodiles do have enlarged scales that can resemble fine. The common basilisk somewhat resembles a crocolisk? What are you smoking dude clearly the look more like crocodiles. And why are you trying to suddenly switch to a different source of inspiration for the isk? Your wrong get over it. It's ok to be wrong.

Inspiration doesn't need to be from mythology. Or is Harrison Jones a completely original Blizzard creation? Are Devilsaurs devil dinosaurs? or are the inspired by the T-rex? Why not just call a brutosaur a brontosaurus? Or do you have some secret Blizzard knowledge. You sure act like you do even though you are constantly proven wrong.

I didn't say because she can do powerful magic. I don't even think she is the Winter Queens sister. I said there were several things like her being powerful and using powers that no other regular joe person in the covenants can do that not even the important story characters use, her running half of Ardenweld including the half Ysera was in, her being on the court and having a high title, and other things that could lead to her being the Winter Queens sister even though I don't think she is. I used her as a way to get people to think of other possible ideas other than just Eonar and Elune and have spent 5+ pages defending myself from you.

Yes Droman are a title and so is Lord and Lady. Are the leaders of the Wild Hunt and groves and stuff going to be the weakest creatures? Of course not don't be stupid.

At this point I can clearly see you don't really want to have a discussion and just attack people so this will be my last post to you maybe I should have read your whole post first before bothering to respond.

[tommyhil622]

None of that is on the pages you linked. And far from all of it is irreconcilable with the Chronicles. E.g. it's perfectly possible the rogue Val'kyr actually joined the Kyrians, making both claims true. They were kind of dead, after all.

Except that's not how it works. The arbiter determines who goes to what realm. The Val'Kyr can't just join the Kyrians because they want to. Yea you can make it work but right now there is a discrepancy in the lore. It would require more lore or headcanon to make the two pieces of lore mesh together in a sensical way.

[huth]

Except that's not how it works. The arbiter determines who goes to what realm. The Val'Kyr can't just join the Kyrians because they want to. Yea you can make it work but right now there is a discrepancy in the lore. It would require more lore or headcanon to make the two pieces of lore mesh together in a sensical way.

Actually, they can, unless they get sent to Revendreth. If a soul feels they don't fit in, they are capable of trying if another realm fits them better.

They'd probably still be expected to walk the path and learn things properly, though.

[tommyhil622]

Actually, they can, unless they get sent to Revendreth. If a soul feels they don't fit in, they are capable of trying if another realm fits them better.

They'd probably still be expected to walk the path and learn things properly, though.

They can if the Arbiter says they can but, it's not like it was mentioned in chronicles. Again there's a discrepancy that needs to be addressed.

[huth]

They can if the Arbiter says they can but, it's not like it was mentioned in chronicles. Again there's a discrepancy that needs to be addressed.

No, they can unless the Arbiter says no. And that's not a discrepancy to the Chronicles since the Chronicles do not cover the Shadowlands beyond superficial glimpses.

[Frontenac]

It is either Elune or Eonar. If there is a difference between the two of them (I would prefer that). That being said, the dragon aspects have already been called the Titans' pets before. The Winter Queen calls Ysera "one of my sister's pets". Which means that her sister has several "pets". Ysera's powers are coming from Eonar. But she was not the only one. Alexstrasza was also empowered by Eonar. Eonar is the Titan of Life. Eonar who has either created the Emerald Dream or played a huge role in the way this realm is today. The Emerald Dream and Ardenweald are linked. Therefore, it is logical that Eonar and the Winter Queen are linked. Whatever the term "sister" means in that context (literal or symbolic). Or it is Freya. But since she's Eonar's avatar...

[tommyhil622]

No, they can unless the Arbiter says no. And that's not a discrepancy to the Chronicles since the Chronicles do not cover the Shadowlands beyond superficial glimpses.

You're missing the point. Not arguing that the arbiter can't send them to Bastion. I'm arguing that there's a discrepancy. It's pretty obvious your over simplifying the contradiction to make it seem like there isn't one. It's like the apologetic route of the obvious retcon.

[huth]

You're missing the point. Not arguing that the arbiter can't send them to Bastion. I'm arguing that there's a discrepancy. It's pretty obvious your over simplifying the contradiction to make it seem like there isn't one. It's like the apologetic route of the obvious retcon.

What discrepancy? You're simply asserting there is one without actually making a case. If there are any Val'kyr that joined Bastion, the discrepancy goes poof.

[tommyhil622]

What discrepancy? You're simply asserting there is one without actually making a case. If there are any Val'kyr that joined Bastion, the discrepancy goes poof.

That's awesome. Please refer to me a page/text/passage/quote that shows this. That's the point i'm making.

[huth]

That's awesome. Please refer to me a page/text/passage/quote that shows this. That's the point i'm making.

Shows what? That it is possible that a non-zero amount of Val'kyr joined Bastion? That's already possible with the Shadowlands normal workings.

[tommyhil622]

Shows what? That it is possible that a non-zero amount of Val'kyr joined Bastion? That's already possible with the Shadowlands normal workings.

I hear ya, I just disagree with your take on it. It's not that simple. But it's cool to agree to disagree.

[Frozenbeef]

Well she is in ardenweald, go ask her what she meant. Like after all we have done to help her, the least she can do is not be super cryptic.

"If you answer me with some cryptic rubbish I'm straight up hearthing to stormwind and never giving you another drop of anime ever again"

[huth]

I hear ya, I just disagree with your take on it. It's not that simple. But it's cool to agree to disagree.

Yes, you disagree with it. But you're not giving any reasoning for your disagreement.

[shoc]

If anything I would say the Winter Queen and Freya have the most in common. Freya was the one to create the Emerald Dream, Freya who empowered the Dragon Aspects, and Freya that created the Wild Gods too. It was all power given by Eonar but that doesn't get the credit.

The Keepers and the Eternal Ones are capable of very similar feats. Both are able to create stable afterlife dimensions (Emerald Dream, Halls of Valor, Helheim). Both can essentially manufacture intelligent life within their realms. Denathrius makes Stoneborn like Loken made Iron Vrykul. The Keepers are basically directly responsible for all native life on Azeroth. Both are powered by an energy source called Anima. Denathrius vs. Thorim is a better power level comparison based on how strong he is in-game.

First Ones ordered the Shadowlands and then created the Eternal Ones to run the place.
The Titans ordered Azeroth and then created the Titan Keepers to run the place.

So the Winter Queen regarding Freya as one of her sisters, and Ysera her pet, makes a lot of sense.

It could make actual literal sense if the First Ones = The Titans in which case Eonar would have been responsible for both Freya and the Winter Queen. That would be a boring twist to the secret of who the First Ones are though.

[darkoms]

If anything I would say the Winter Queen and Freya have the most in common. Freya was the one to create the Emerald Dream, Freya who empowered the Dragon Aspects, and Freya that created the Wild Gods too. It was all power given by Eonar but that doesn't get the credit.

The Keepers and the Eternal Ones are capable of very similar feats. Both are able to create stable afterlife dimensions (Emerald Dream, Halls of Valor, Helheim). Both can essentially manufacture intelligent life within their realms. Denathrius makes Stoneborn like Loken made Iron Vrykul. The Keepers are basically directly responsible for all native life on Azeroth. Both are powered by an energy source called Anima. Denathrius vs. Thorim is a better power level comparison based on how strong he is in-game.

First Ones ordered the Shadowlands and then created the Eternal Ones to run the place.
The Titans ordered Azeroth and then created the Titan Keepers to run the place.

So the Winter Queen regarding Freya as one of her sisters, and Ysera her pet, makes a lot of sense.

It could make actual literal sense if the First Ones = The Titans in which case Eonar would have been responsible for both Freya and the Winter Queen. That would be a boring twist to the secret of who the First Ones are though.

Freya was more likely to arrange the Emerald Dream than to create it entirely. This is a titan's dream and it was before Freya.
The Titans gave the Aspects their power through the Keepers as intermediaries.
Freya did not create Wild Gods, they appeared in her enclaves due to the energy of the Well of Eternity.

The first are the creatures who created the Shadowlands and they are associated with the Pantheon of Death and the Pantheon of the Titans. These are not the Titans themselves, as the Titans know almost nothing about the Shadowlands.