State of Retri

[Kalisandra]

No class in the game can kill as fast as Ret can right now and it isn't even close. 20k Judgment into 10k Templar's kills every person in the game in a global and there's virtually no counter play to it. At least Sub Rogues you can trinket a stun or something, Rets just kill you straight up.

Given that you have to be pretty quick to trinket/bubble out of a rogue's opener/finisher, immunities count as a counter to Ret as well. Bubble, Turtle, Cloak/Vanish all work. Also, if the TV is required to finish, there's the solution used in LK too - don't let the Ret close.

BTW I've seen ferals delete people in their opening. Fire Mages in moments, from range while moving... There are plenty of specs that can just wipe people that don't have immunities or ways to drop combat and GTO. As with LK back in the day, if specs like Ret are nerfed now, once people have gear and more Vers (Resilience in LK of course), Ret will suck.

[kosajk]

Welp, better than one shots rogues am I right? in all seriousness, ret has been shat on repeatedly by the pvp community,

not without reason, from time they removed -50% dmg on bubble its freaking force to be recon with, atm with one of the strongest burst and undispelable BoF
also rogues get bashed much more in recent blue post so here you have

Nerfed as expected, we wouldn't want people to learn how to play against rets, that would be absurd.

yea lets learn how to play against pala, rogue and hunter question what to do with all possible comps of all of them as it was ~3-5 sec 100 - 0% hp in 1vs1 situations

Given that you have to be pretty quick to trinket/bubble out of a rogue's opener/finisher, immunities count as a counter to Ret as well. Bubble, Turtle, Cloak/Vanish all work. Also, if the TV is required to finish, there's the solution used in LK too - don't let the Ret close.

BTW I've seen ferals delete people in their opening. Fire Mages in moments, from range while moving... There are plenty of specs that can just wipe people that don't have immunities or ways to drop combat and GTO. As with LK back in the day, if specs like Ret are nerfed now, once people have gear and more Vers (Resilience in LK of course), Ret will suck.

yea ferals should be taken into consideration for nerfs next, no argue here,
mages have their drawbacks well see if it get spanked by nerfbat or not

[Rucati]

Given that you have to be pretty quick to trinket/bubble out of a rogue's opener/finisher, immunities count as a counter to Ret as well. Bubble, Turtle, Cloak/Vanish all work. Also, if the TV is required to finish, there's the solution used in LK too - don't let the Ret close.

BTW I've seen ferals delete people in their opening. Fire Mages in moments, from range while moving... There are plenty of specs that can just wipe people that don't have immunities or ways to drop combat and GTO. As with LK back in the day, if specs like Ret are nerfed now, once people have gear and more Vers (Resilience in LK of course), Ret will suck.

Rogue's take a good 4 seconds to kill you after all the nerfs. That's more than enough time to trinket and use a defensive or CC them. Rets kill in literally a global, pretty big difference.

Ferals delete people with Convoke, which can be interrupted. Fire Mages really can only one shot if they Greater Pyro into Combust, which is incredibly easy to prevent.

Rets are the only class in the game that can walk at you and delete you in a global. No class should hit for 20k when we have less than 30k health, and I can't even imagine what crazy excuse you could come up with to try and justify it.

[Omaski]

It seems like everyone here who is crying about 'uber-ret' just spent 2+ hours watching youtube 4min clips of rets deleting someone in random BGs...popping all ret CDs, thinking that those 4 perfect mins encompass the entire BG. Many specs/classes can solo Que into BGs & do fine...Ret just-so-happens to be one of them, but there's a reason why you don't see many rets in pro 3v3...they are easily countered/out-matched by many classes/specs in the pvp meta.

[Kalisandra]

Rets are the only class in the game that can walk at you and delete you in a global. No class should hit for 20k when we have less than 30k health, and I can't even imagine what crazy excuse you could come up with to try and justify it.

Emphasis on the 'walk' part.

- - - Updated - - -

Rets are the only class in the game that can walk at you and delete you in a global. No class should hit for 20k when we have less than 30k health, and I can't even imagine what crazy excuse you could come up with to try and justify it.

I'm trying to work out how a Judgement can hit for 20K. I assume Wings, but that's only +20% damage.

Maybe you actually mean Divine Toll plus the conduit that gives it a chance to hit the primary target several times - which was nerfed for PvP from three possible hits for +100% damage to +2 hits and +75% damage. The original version could thus hit for eight times normal damage, so 9.6 times counting wings. However, even that shouldn't reach 20K+ unless several criticaled, except possibly on a victim with no Versatility. Nerfing something because of what it does to undergeared people is foolish, and will result in over-nerfing, as has happened to Ret many times in the past.

With the current nerfed version of Divine Toll + Ringing Clarity, three times 1.75 times 1.2 (for wings) damage gives a max of 6.3 times normal damage, and gets nowhere near 20K unless both bonus Judgements hit and all three crit, which with current crit levels is a very rare occurance.

I think you're seeing another thing instead - Divine Toll + Ringing Clarity landing on someone with the Final Reckoning debuff, and thus taking an extra +50% holy damage. That means they're not actually being one-shotted, and as there are plenty of specs that can 2-3 shot people, and without needing to use their major CD and a couple of 1 min CD spells to do it, that's in keeping with everything else flying around right now.

Is PvP faster than I'd like right now? Absolutely. Is nerfing Ret going to fix it in any way, shape or form? Not unless most specs in the game are also nerfed - a major rework of every spec in the game would be required. Frankly, it's not worth them trying to do so unless things don't settle down later in the season when people have more Vers on their gear.

[Varaben]

Emphasis on the 'walk' part.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm trying to work out how a Judgement can hit for 20K. I assume Wings, but that's only +20% damage.

Maybe you actually mean Divine Toll plus the conduit that gives it a chance to hit the primary target several times - which was nerfed for PvP from three possible hits for +100% damage to +2 hits and +75% damage. The original version could thus hit for eight times normal damage, so 9.6 times counting wings. However, even that shouldn't reach 20K+ unless several criticaled, except possibly on a victim with no Versatility. Nerfing something because of what it does to undergeared people is foolish, and will result in over-nerfing, as has happened to Ret many times in the past.

With the current nerfed version of Divine Toll + Ringing Clarity, three times 1.75 times 1.2 (for wings) damage gives a max of 6.3 times normal damage, and gets nowhere near 20K unless both bonus Judgements hit and all three crit, which with current crit levels is a very rare occurance.

I think you're seeing another thing instead - Divine Toll + Ringing Clarity landing on someone with the Final Reckoning debuff, and thus taking an extra +50% holy damage. That means they're not actually being one-shotted, and as there are plenty of specs that can 2-3 shot people, and without needing to use their major CD and a couple of 1 min CD spells to do it, that's in keeping with everything else flying around right now.

Is PvP faster than I'd like right now? Absolutely. Is nerfing Ret going to fix it in any way, shape or form? Not unless most specs in the game are also nerfed - a major rework of every spec in the game would be required. Frankly, it's not worth them trying to do so unless things don't settle down later in the season when people have more Vers on their gear.

A few things here -

1. Consider Lawbringer talent that does 5% of their health (so against a 30k target that's 1.5k, not a huge amount, but something) so thats in the "1-shot" calculation. 2. If you're in melee range and have reckoning (another pvp talent) up, that's a 250% weapon swing that can potentially hit all in the same GCD. I've had those hit for 5k easy.
3. Additionally, Final Reckoning doesn't affect Divine Toll/Judgment (it only affects HP spenders, check the tooltip). So that isn't in the calculation at all, except that it does do a chunk of damage, so you could FR + DT + TV + reckoning all in 2 GCDs and potentially "1-shot" someone.

[Kalisandra]

A few things here -

1. Consider Lawbringer talent that does 5% of their health (so against a 30k target that's 1.5k, not a huge amount, but something) so thats in the "1-shot" calculation.

Does that apply soon enough for the hits from Divine Toll to trigger it? If not, then it has to be pre-applied, and it's not a one-shot any more.

2. If you're in melee range and have reckoning (another pvp talent) up, that's a 250% weapon swing that can potentially hit all in the same GCD. I've had those hit for 5k easy.

It takes a fair bit to stack Reckoning up to the point it procs. Also this goes to the whole "letting Ret get into melee and not using defensives/CC" thing - as in (early) Wrath and from Legion onwards a bit part of Ret's 'setup' is getting to a target. Once there, damage happens quickly (one hopes). This is rough on melee, but makes ranged with decent control awful to fight (and then when you do blow them up you get to listen to mages whine incessantly about how unfair it all is).

3. Additionally, Final Reckoning doesn't affect Divine Toll/Judgment (it only affects HP spenders, check the tooltip). So that isn't in the calculation at all, except that it does do a chunk of damage, so you could FR + DT + TV + reckoning all in 2 GCDs and potentially "1-shot" someone.

My mistake. I blame posting pre-coffee, as I did know that.

[kosajk]

That can, once again, be broken by Warriors and Priests, neither class being rare in PvP.

yea thats true although neither of them can burst you down in ~5 sec on top of pala also having absorbs and strong self heals
could also use loh against those comps
everyone have some counters you have whole 2 classes that can annoy you at best + maybe some heavy kiters but that just require proper comp to counter.
Enh is countered by anything that have decent burst + some stun in the toolkit
rogue have DH as hard counter + anything with immune`s may be pain in the ass

really nothing to cry about as pally at this point Although going from 3 sec kills to 7 may be annoying for sure ;P

[cparle87]

You say that as if most classes in the game can't do it at the moment.

- - - Updated - - -

That can, once again, be broken by Warriors and Priests, neither class being rare in PvP.

Warriors haven't been able to pop bubbles since WoD. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shattering_Throw

[Kalisandra]

Warriors haven't been able to pop bubbles since WoD. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shattering_Throw

Shattering Throw is back: https://www.wowhead.com/spell=64382/shattering-throw

It breaks bubbles and puts a lot of damage into absorb shields.

[cparle87]

Shattering Throw is back: https://www.wowhead.com/spell=64382/shattering-throw

It breaks bubbles and puts a lot of damage into absorb shields.

Did you actually check on a warrior or just looked at wowhead? Cause the newest comments are 6.0 something.

[Velshin]

Did you actually check on a warrior or just looked at wowhead? Cause the newest comments are 6.0 something.

What the hell are you talking about? shattering throw is back ingame and I saw many warriors using it really.

[cparle87]

What the hell are you talking about? shattering throw is back ingame and I saw many warriors using it really.

I know warriors have some kind of throw move that they can use to pull. But wowpedia says it's removed and wowhead doesn't have any comments newer than 6.0. So I'm asking you. Do you have a warrior and seen the move on the bars? Saying "I've seen warriors do some kind of throwy thing" is not proof.

[Kalisandra]

I know warriors have some kind of throw move that they can use to pull. But wowpedia says it's removed and wowhead doesn't have any comments newer than 6.0. So I'm asking you. Do you have a warrior and seen the move on the bars? Saying "I've seen warriors do some kind of throwy thing" is not proof.

For starters, yes I have a Warrior. Secondly, check out wowhead's talent calculator. Warriors get Shattering Throw at Level 41. Also, read the changelog for Shattering Throw.

It does a little less damage than Slam or Bloodthirst, but with 500% vs absorb shields (which is new to this version of the ability) they can wipe out most shield effects on a hit. You'll note that it's cooldown is 3 minutes, which is longer than Shield of Vengeance, but shorter than Divine Shield or BoP.

[Velshin]

I know warriors have some kind of throw move that they can use to pull. But wowpedia says it's removed and wowhead doesn't have any comments newer than 6.0. So I'm asking you. Do you have a warrior and seen the move on the bars? Saying "I've seen warriors do some kind of throwy thing" is not proof.

I have a warrior alt and yes they learn it at lvl 41....

[ldev]

I know warriors have some kind of throw move that they can use to pull. But wowpedia says it's removed and wowhead doesn't have any comments newer than 6.0. So I'm asking you. Do you have a warrior and seen the move on the bars? Saying "I've seen warriors do some kind of throwy thing" is not proof.

Very nice example on why class discussion is useless - everyone can jump in. Even people who never played the game. Because if he even installed trial version and checked out every class at level 1 he would have very quickly discovered that warrior can break bubble:


Nah, still let's discuss class balance without knowing literally jack shit.

[cparle87]

Very nice example on why class discussion is useless - everyone can jump in. Even people who never played the game. Because if he even installed trial version and checked out every class at level 1 he would have very quickly discovered that warrior can break bubble:

Nah, still let's discuss class balance without knowing literally jack shit.

Ah well, maybe some people should get off their asses and updated wowhead and wowpedia so it's not 4 expansions out of date.

[ldev]

Ah well, maybe some people should get off their asses and updated wowhead and wowpedia so it's not 4 expansions out of date.

Ah, well, doesn't change anything really - how people who don't know jack shit still "contribute" to balance discussions. That's the problem.

Not that wowhead is outdated (it's not, by the way - https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warrior/arms skill is listed) or that wowpedia is outdated (which is editable by anyone, and instead of bitching, you can actually make an easy change).