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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    I know how strong anima powers are and how easy good rolls make those runs. I'm fully aware of it. I had runs where I completely ignored everything because I just had to look at stuff and it died - on others I had to stealth from floor-boss to floor-boss, because I couldn't even kill a trashgroup if there were more than 2 enemies in it.

    I'm just saying that better gear CAN(!) negate bad anima powers - while bad gear is double-dipping the issue of getting bad anima powers, as you get less increase if you have lower stats. (doing 2k dps + 15% is less than 3,5k + 15%, obviously)
    It can help make the power inequality less blunt, sure. But a good, very good chunk of your effectiveness and how smooth your run is is very much based on what anima powers you accrue. Will you be able to get through [insert Torghast layer x] with the shittiest anima powers once you have good enough gear? Probably. But right now, you can have shit gear and skills and roll the dice just right to breeze through it while a guy with better gear can roll the dice and waste over an hour going through a slog of a layer only to get blueballed by a boss they aren't equipped to handle no matter how skillful they are.

    And while I get that RNG is very much a part of that type of gameplay, I don't think it should be that influential that going into a layer is basically going "Welp, time to check if I'm lucky with this layer." I don't think that makes for rewarding gameplay for anyone except the people that have consistently been rolling good and can now pretend like they got through on pure unmitigated awesome gamer skill.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    It can help make the power inequality less blunt, sure. But a good, very good chunk of your effectiveness and how smooth your run is is very much based on what anima powers you accrue. Will you be able to get through [insert Torghast layer x] with the shittiest anima powers once you have good enough gear? Probably. But right now, you can have shit gear and skills and roll the dice just right to breeze through it while a guy with better gear can roll the dice and waste over an hour going through a slog of a layer only to get blueballed by a boss they aren't equipped to handle no matter how skillful they are.

    And while I get that RNG is very much a part of that type of gameplay, I don't think it should be that influential that going into a layer is basically going "Welp, time to check if I'm lucky with this layer." I don't think that makes for rewarding gameplay for anyone except the people that have consistently been rolling good and can now pretend like they got through on pure unmitigated awesome gamer skill.
    That's true, yes. But the better the gear is going to be, the easier those layers will be, even tho you are the guy that doesn't get those holy moly crazy powers. Yes, there WILL be times were a row of bad anima will kill your run in the end, but the amount of those will go down sooner or later.

    Imo there should be an indicater which ilvl you should have for each layer - not for a save guarantee to clear those, but just to know what ilvl one should have to lessen the chance to f* the layer up after investing much time.
    It's hard to combine mmo-style gameplay with roguelike gameplay, as long as there is no way to outskill the enemies (as this is just how roguelikes work).
    (I for myself go to floor 3 and then I decide if I give up, as you can see the endboss there + you had some chances getting good powers)

    Edit: Torghast nerfs incoming
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=319992/...tural-?webhook
    Last edited by Bloodyleech; 2020-12-17 at 08:15 PM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    That's true, yes. But the better the gear is going to be, the easier those layers will be, even tho you are the guy that doesn't get those holy moly crazy powers. Yes, there WILL be times were a row of bad anima will kill your run in the end, but the amount of those will go down sooner or later.

    Imo there should be an indicater which ilvl you should have for each layer - not for a save guarantee to clear those, but just to know what ilvl one should have to lessen the chance to f* the layer up after investing much time.
    It's hard to combine mmo-style gameplay with roguelike gameplay, as long as there is no way to outskill the enemies (as this is just how roguelikes work).
    (I for myself go to floor 3 and then I decide if I give up, as you can see the endboss there + you had some chances getting good powers)
    I get your point and I appreciate it. I just feel like this is too much RNG. I think somebody with good gear and at least some base sense of situational awareness should reliably be able to get through it at a decent pace and not be outdone by somebody with good luck.

    And I agree on the indicator. And I think Blizzard does too since they mentioned something similar.

    One thing I also hate is that stacking buffs elites and bosses get. On one hand, sure, it's good that they have it, but they also turn a lot of fights into ramming your keyboard as hard as possible to maximum deeps rather than, you know, thinking about what you do.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I get your point and I appreciate it. I just feel like this is too much RNG. I think somebody with good gear and at least some base sense of situational awareness should reliably be able to get through it at a decent pace and not be outdone by somebody with good luck.

    And I agree on the indicator. And I think Blizzard does too since they mentioned something similar.

    One thing I also hate is that stacking buffs elites and bosses get. On one hand, sure, it's good that they have it, but they also turn a lot of fights into ramming your keyboard as hard as possible to maximum deeps rather than, you know, thinking about what you do.
    Yeahh, but that is just really the thing about blizzard mixing both genres together. They should have made more with aoe-indicaters and less unavoidable stuff to bring more of a "you know your stuff? good, you get some crazy shit thrown at you, if you outskill it, gg".


    This stacking buff is going to be less of a problem with growing gear, tho, but I can completely understand why this can kill the fun in this content.

    Anyway, lets see how much the incoming nerfs will affect the gameplay!

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    Yeahh, but that is just really the thing about blizzard mixing both genres together. They should have made more with aoe-indicaters and less unavoidable stuff to bring more of a "you know your stuff? good, you get some crazy shit thrown at you, if you outskill it, gg".


    This stacking buff is going to be less of a problem with growing gear, tho, but I can completely understand why this can kill the fun in this content.

    Anyway, lets see how much the incoming nerfs will affect the gameplay!
    It's kind of why I don't like to jump into Torghast and only do it out of necessity.

    And considering this isn't even meant to be the "challenging mode" (Twisting Corridors), I'm a little apprehensive.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    Bruh, even Blizzard nerfed some of the things mentioned in this thread. They were obviously overtuned.
    because blizzard wants high participation numbers.

    blizzard usually caters to the lowest common denominator. see: lfr.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Stopped there. It most definitely is not lmao. If you think it is, you've either just had great RNG with Anima Powers or not played at all.

    The powers are integral to the success of your run unless you are a tank.
    lmao, no.

    you can do 8s, especially with the nerfs, with no damage increasing anima. you can outplay a lot in torghast, tbh

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    lmao, no.

    you can do 8s, especially with the nerfs, with no damage increasing anima. you can outplay a lot in torghast, tbh
    you can't outplay shit in torghast right now without the right anima powers

    you're not going to outplay a bunch of stacks of unnatural power

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    you can't outplay shit in torghast right now without the right anima powers

    you're not going to outplay a bunch of stacks of unnatural power
    hm, you can los juke casters
    you can outrange casts

    I mean i get that you can't, but I did my 8 with patrician cromwell dying on 20+ stacks by just kiting him in a circle and losing his casts whenever I could so ymmv.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    hm, you can los juke casters
    you can outrange casts

    I mean i get that you can't, but I did my 8 with patrician cromwell dying on 20+ stacks by just kiting him in a circle and losing his casts whenever I could so ymmv.
    So now try this as a melee who has to get in range and attack a boss. Good luck LoSing and outranging every cast?

    But yeah, I guess I'm wrong. If you're the right class, you can survive stuff others can't. Doesn't seem like something that should be the case, but my argument was a black & white "you can't outplay it," so ironically, I guess I played myself, there.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    So now try this as a melee who has to get in range and attack a boss. Good luck LoSing and outranging every cast?

    But yeah, I guess I'm wrong. If you're the right class, you can survive stuff others can't. Doesn't seem like something that should be the case, but my argument was a black & white "you can't outplay it," so ironically, I guess I played myself, there.
    you can still run around pillars as a melee
    most melee have way more cc abilities and actual interrupts

    Most of the issues i've been reading are people used to facerolling as tank, refusing to come to the realization that they actually don't get a free ride anymore

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    you can still run around pillars as a melee
    most melee have way more cc abilities and actual interrupts

    Most of the issues i've been reading are people used to facerolling as tank, refusing to come to the realization that they actually don't get a free ride anymore
    Depends on your environment, too. And yeah, there's some interrupts, but in my experience by far not enough to endure some of the chunking you get into later.

    And I haven't been a tank at any point (was tempted for a bit, though) and I agree that tanks had an easy time earlier on. But it feels like people calling Torghast EZ and that anyone who hasn't been able to get through it should "git gud" have also been coasting on good RNG.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Depends on your environment, too. And yeah, there's some interrupts, but in my experience by far not enough to endure some of the chunking you get into later.

    And I haven't been a tank at any point (was tempted for a bit, though) and I agree that tanks had an easy time earlier on. But it feels like people calling Torghast EZ and that anyone who hasn't been able to get through it should "git gud" have also been coasting on good RNG.
    I 100% just did an 8 with nothing but a power that increased your damage while convoking (sounds better than it is, cus it's a 2min cd) and +phantasma powers. still took nearly 3 minutes and nearly 20 stacks. like honestly, I get it. the powers make a difference, I get that. After doing Synod with zdps powers, I saw partician cromwell in the floor 3 hologram and I knew to myself that once it wasn't that particular mob i'd win, lol.

    +8 before the nerf was tuned around 200-213ish itemlevel. Not many people are at that, I suppose, but assuming you are, it's more than manageable.
    tbf it reminded me of early mage tower attempts.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I 100% just did an 8 with nothing but a power that increased your damage while convoking (sounds better than it is, cus it's a 2min cd) and +phantasma powers. still took nearly 3 minutes and nearly 20 stacks. like honestly, I get it. the powers make a difference, I get that. After doing Synod with zdps powers, I saw partician cromwell in the floor 3 hologram and I knew to myself that once it wasn't that particular mob i'd win, lol.

    +8 before the nerf was tuned around 200-213ish itemlevel. Not many people are at that, I suppose, but assuming you are, it's more than manageable.
    tbf it reminded me of early mage tower attempts.
    Early on I had a similar thing with Maw of the Maw. I saw that I was gonna get that one and knew I'd hit a wall, and I did. Nearly got him down due to some interrupt luck (anima power that does 10% of the mob health in damage if you interrupt their spell), but I didn't get another attempt before the Tarragrue showed up.

    The run after that, I didn't have that much better anima power luck, but I had another boss at the end which was way, way easier.

    Right now, what I want most is for there to be a bit less of a chasm between anima power RNG. I get that RNG is a big part of the system, but I feel like it's a little too dramatic as is.

  14. #214
    I did okay on level 7 with my resto druid. Last boss was tough-ish, but I still just had to stand there and spam heal myself while keeping dots and swarm up and managed to drop it. But my health did drop dangerously low once or twice and i died my first attempt. 240% increase to my dots and hots plus swarm boosting it another 60% and a near constant 20% damage mitigation buff and rooting them the first 20-25% of their health (just root and stand there).
    I'm a thread killer.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I 100% just did an 8 with nothing but a power that increased your damage while convoking (sounds better than it is, cus it's a 2min cd) and +phantasma powers. still took nearly 3 minutes and nearly 20 stacks. like honestly, I get it. the powers make a difference, I get that. After doing Synod with zdps powers, I saw partician cromwell in the floor 3 hologram and I knew to myself that once it wasn't that particular mob i'd win, lol.

    +8 before the nerf was tuned around 200-213ish itemlevel. Not many people are at that, I suppose, but assuming you are, it's more than manageable.
    tbf it reminded me of early mage tower attempts.
    Wait, so you did it as a druid, literally the only class that can faceroll any layer as any spec right now. Okay then lmao.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Neither of you understand it.

    Sure gear and knowing your class helps. But it's like comparing a cupcake with a massive pie where the massive pie is the anima power RNG.
    The Anima powers haven't made a difference ever except to sometimes make the run faster like when I get the one that extents my cov ability. Waken I get the generic ones or might take a lil bit longer but still doable. Could probably do it without ever taking any. So is the complaint you're not OP all the time?

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    They aren't needed to clear, if you have fitting gear (and ofc dont have some weird op enemies). If you are so much into this opinion, then.. sry bud, but this content is not made for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinaul View Post
    Could probably do it without ever taking any. So is the complaint you're not OP all the time?
    Both of you mind recording a run without taking any anima powers? I'd be interested in seeing that.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Both of you mind recording a run without taking any anima powers? I'd be interested in seeing that.
    Yeah. At least prior to the nerfs, anima powers were kind of part of the system and would make and break a run for most classes I know. Barring tank specs.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Pengalor View Post
    Wait, so you did it as a druid, literally the only class that can faceroll any layer as any spec right now. Okay then lmao.
    you forgot warlock hunter paladin monk in that but yeah, sure. "only" class.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Both of you mind recording a run without taking any anima powers? I'd be interested in seeing that.
    Depending on which layer - it was doable prenerf, and it's prettymuch more doable now after the nerfs. Ofc I could not clear layer 6 or higher with an ilvl of 180.
    1-2? pretty sure, 3-4? maybe possible, 5+? questionable with this ilvl.

    As @Yarathir says, anima powers ARE a part of the system, but with enough ilvl you can bruteforce some(!) layers with very bad powers.
    Whenever we will reach 240++, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do L6-8 without them too, especially when blizz is gonna nerf it even more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengalor View Post
    Wait, so you did it as a druid, literally the only class that can faceroll any layer as any spec right now. Okay then lmao.
    Oh yeah, lets forget about BM hunter, all 3 monk specs (esp MW), warlock, paladin, dh and disc.
    Even as drood you can't faceroll every layer with lower ilvl and bad anima, still harder than some others.

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