So, what do you think of the loot change in Shadowlands regarding m+?

[kaminaris]

Actually probably the same amount. I raided mythic content from TBC until WoD, the gear just meant I could kill the next tier of bosses within a number requirement set by Blizzard. I still had to learn the encounter and be able to do them in a team environment which is the actual fun part of mythic raiding... You should try it.

The gear is just replaceable pixels on a screen that's there to serve you for your aim in the game. Mine was challenging content.

That is just wishful thinking, first of all most mythic raiders can't just overcome bosses with their skill alone. Nor they have so much time as people from world first race.
Raid bosses became much more tight since TBC and "standard" raiding hours is like 3x(3-4)h each week.

Gear plays a big role in how timely you can down bosses and you would knew that if you ever discovered kill % vs ilvl statistics on WCL.
Also having vision of 6 month of progress doesn't make you optimistic.

[Malania]

That is just wishful thinking, first of all most mythic raiders can't just overcome bosses with their skill alone. Nor they have so much time as people from world first race.
Raid bosses became much more tight since TBC and "standard" raiding hours is like 3x(3-4)h each week.

Gear plays a big role in how timely you can down bosses and you would knew that if you ever discovered kill % vs ilvl statistics on WCL.
Also having vision of 6 month of progress doesn't make you optimistic.

And this is why I said from TBC until WoD. I have seen the current gen of mythic raiding and completed it and even in TBC we raided 3 days x 4 hours as week. This is nothing new?

Of course gear plays a roll, but it's a roll in your aims, not the objective of why you're raiding.

You're clearly confused on the issue and haven't read the original post. I said gear wasn't the objective of the game. It's a means to an end. You do not raid specifically for the gear itself. You need it if you're going to beat the boss but its not the purpose for why you're raiding in the first place. Anyone who did raid only to be given the purples, I really wouldn't want on a raid team with me as they're likely to jump ship as soon as it dry's out at a wall. I've seen it before and it sets everyone else back.

[Beuargh]

the gear from M+ is in the end meaningless

you just solved your own problem

you ask for more, but you say they are meaningless. Why do you want them? they are meaningless or not?

[Malania]

you just solved your own problem

you ask for more, but you say they are meaningless. Why do you want them? they are meaningless or not?

They serve a purpose like gear from heroics if you plan to go further. If you want to push higher keys, gear has a reason and can give you the edge. But if you're like me now and just really play solo play and the odd mythic with no aim other than some mounts and transmog, my gear really doesn't bother me.

I like to think I'm the end result of a natural progression curve in all WoW players

Once you've achieved your aims in the game or burned out you just play socially and everything that mattered before is just kind of fun to watch in the background.

You'll all be like me one day!

[kaminaris]

And this is why I said from TBC until WoD. I have seen the current gen of mythic raiding and completed it and even in TBC we raided 3 days x 4 hours as week. This is nothing new?

Of course gear plays a roll, but it's a roll in your aims, not the objective of why you're raiding.

You're clearly confused on the issue and haven't read the original post. I said gear wasn't the objective of the game. It's a means to an end. You do not raid specifically for the gear itself. You need it if you're going to beat the boss but its not the purpose for why you're raiding in the first place. Anyone who did raid only to be given the purples, I really wouldn't want on a raid team with me as they're likely to jump ship as soon as it dry's out at a wall. I've seen it before and it sets everyone else back.

Doesn't really matter if it's a goal or objective or means to an end. You need gear to progress or to progress faster. Even dungeons or rio score.

Inability to catch up or to gear in reasonable amount of time is what made guild pouching prominent.

Loot whores are not new either but that hasn't been ever a really big problem like many other issues that were gradually solved by giving gear left an right.
And in system where mythic raids are tight, M+ and rio score is a thing, gear is much more valuable than ever.

So it is just wishful thinking that "old plain loot" can work together with "tight raids" or "hard dungeons".
It is also wishful thinking that people are satisfied with running same dungeon over and over and not be rewarded, as the reward itself is from weekly bingo lottery.

[Justintime328]

Well I whole heartedly supported the change and still do. That being said I'm currently on the longest drought of my wow experience. I've done no fewer than 30 mythic+'s and my guild got 6 bosses down on normal. From ALL of that I've gotten the raid neck 3 times (once in the raid, once in the vault and once from the quest chest.) and an off-hand yesterday. Thats pretty much all I have gotten since mythic 0 week. My guildies are all approaching 200 ilvl and I'm still at 183.

Not really sure how to feel about it, feels bad right now though.

[bloodykiller86]

As you are aware, now we get one drop less per dungeon in m+. So in-time it's 2 items, not in time it's just 1 item. I have to be honest here, I think this change hurts my overall fun of the game the most. On average only 4 out of 10 runs you will get one item, that's not even every 2nd time you go in. And that's if you finish the dungeon in time. I have gone without an item on my main for 5 runs, something I can't really recall back in BFA. I get that they "need" to reduce the drops because there is less RNG with the removal of the TF/WF mechanic. But the game (m+) just feels less fun/rewarding to do. I always thought 3 items per run was pretty much perfect. What do you guys think?

My primarily source of loot will be m+, and the way it is now I am encouraged to just do one M+ and wait for the weekly lockout and get my vault item. The ilvl of normal m+ is lower to begin with and so I feel like I have little incentive to spam m+. Is this the intention? If yes then my journey in SL will be short lived because the main reason I am even still playing WoW are Dungeons.

totally fine with it. i like loot actually meaning something. i had about 20 items in my bags at any one time in BFA.....that wasnt fun

[Malania]

Doesn't really matter if it's a goal or objective or means to an end. You need gear to progress or to progress faster. Even dungeons or rio score.

Inability to catch up or to gear in reasonable amount of time is what made guild pouching prominent.

Loot whores are not new either but that hasn't been ever a really big problem like many other issues that were gradually solved by giving gear left an right.
And in system where mythic raids are tight, M+ and rio score is a thing, gear is much more valuable than ever.

So it is just wishful thinking that "old plain loot" can work together with "tight raids" or "hard dungeons".
It is also wishful thinking that people are satisfied with running same dungeon over and over and not be rewarded, as the reward itself is from weekly bingo lottery.

Your first point has nothing to do with anything as I never disputed that.

Your second point is irrelevant since attunement's were removed a very, very long time ago allowing people to bypass content walls in raids and be fed gear to immediately from the current level the guild is at to catch up. Poaching players isn't the major issue it was anymore.

No they aren't a new thing but again irrelevant to my point?

And lastly no, it can be disheartening to fail to be given something but as your previous statement was "players were given loot left and right" and it never solved anything why should you expect to be given loot again?

I really have no clue what your points are with your posts at this moment... What are you trying to state?

Loot matters? Absolutely! That people should be given it? Ofc not, RNG is RNG. You win some, you lose some. Completing your min requiments for the loot vault will see you gifted something as a consolation even if you don't get anything else that week due to the changes.

My original post was the person has incorrect priorities in the game. Achieving gear is not a purpose to aim for if you don't plan to do anything with it. You aren't progressing faster if you don't do anything after you get it. What exactly are you disputing in this? Help me out here fella... you're all over the place.

[kaminaris]

Your first point has nothing to do with anything as I never disputed that.

Your second point is irrelevant since attunement's were removed a very, very long time ago allowing people to bypass content walls in raids and be fed gear to immediately from the current level the guild is at to catch up. Poaching players isn't the major issue it was anymore.

No they aren't a new thing but again irrelevant to my point?

And lastly no, it can be disheartening to fail to be given something but as your previous statement was "players were given loot left and right" and it never solved anything why should you expect to be given loot again?

I really have no clue what your points are with your posts at this moment... What are you trying to state?

Loot matters? Absolutely! That people should be given it? Ofc not, RNG is RNG. You win some, you lose some. Completing your min requiments for the loot vault will see you gifted something as a consolation even if you don't get anything else that week due to the changes.

My original post was the person has incorrect priorities in the game. Achieving gear is not a purpose to aim for if you don't plan to do anything with it. You aren't progressing faster if you don't do anything after you get it. What exactly are you disputing in this? Help me out here fella... you're all over the place.

Poaching players existed even with titanforging, still does, now it will be visible because honestly, recruiting NEW player mid tier is just not feasible. If your tank ends the game, you have two options, either change one of the dpses to tank or to poach tank from another guild.

And giving loot right and left did solve a lot of things. First of all it made loot even less relevant. That allowed people to practically switch roles and even characters as they saw fit. It wasn't super easy as changing spec but it was possible mid tier. It also made possible for people to jump right in if they ever made break.
Now that is out of question.

You contradict yourself saying loot is just a means to an end but you want it to be relevant. That is wishful thinking.
Loot can either be not relevant and be just means to and end, or be relevant and be a sub-goal of any of activity you do.
There is no in-between.

Either loot matters more because of artificial scarcity AND everyone values it more (on average).
Or loot doesnt matter and nobody gives a flying fuck and just plays the game how they like.

Like honestly, its common sense, if something is more rare then its also more sought after and more valuable.

[BraveNewWorld]

I'm fine with the low number of items.

However, it could use a ilvl boost above +10.

There is no way that Heroic raiding is harder than a +15, and completing a key that level shoud AT LEAST reward heroic raid level items.

[Malania]

Poaching players existed even with titanforging, still does, now it will be visible because honestly, recruiting NEW player mid tier is just not feasible. If your tank ends the game, you have two options, either change one of the dpses to tank or to poach tank from another guild.

And giving loot right and left did solve a lot of things. First of all it made loot even less relevant. That allowed people to practically switch roles and even characters as they saw fit. It wasn't super easy as changing spec but it was possible mid tier. It also made possible for people to jump right in if they ever made break.
Now that is out of question.

You contradict yourself saying loot is just a means to an end but you want it to be relevant. That is wishful thinking.
Loot can either be not relevant and be just means to and end, or be relevant and be a sub-goal of any of activity you do.
There is no in-between.

Either loot matters more because of artificial scarcity AND everyone values it more (on average).
Or loot doesnt matter and nobody gives a flying fuck and just plays the game how they like.

Like honestly, its common sense, if something is more rare then its also more sought after and more valuable.

Yes it does exist. It's not the major issue it was were you required X amount of classes with T6 but since T6 was gated behind completing T5 content first you could only take players on who'd done it already (so players from the other top guilds on your server) or were prepared to boost through previous levels of content. Which was time consuming. That was poaching. Titanforge poaching was simply players moving around, they didn't need to be the same level of content. There were no walls preventing them like there used to be

Lower level players joining a guild higher progressed absolutely is a thing currently and has been since attunements were removed. It's easier to recruit from the same level or have your DPS switch to a tank but there's no physical blocks. I can prove this since I have done it myself twice when my previous guilds collapsed?

So your post is that loot should be given out again freely again? Given out free loot also made players do content way above their level of ability to do simply because they had the gear to do it. I personally ran a M0 on Wednesday where I took a tank on an M0 @ 175, well within the gear range of M0 and he had no idea what he was doing. Using bubble and dropping aggro, when told not to use bubble, he asked what it was? Yet he had the gear to do it. Gear is the indicator of the content they should be able to do. Being given it does not improve player ability or understanding. Being given participation rewards is always a disaster if you flood the market with inferior talent.

I believe gear should be earned yes, but also that it serves a purpose. For example because M+ technically has no cap I'm find with M+ ilvl scaling gear to keep pushing harder content. Should M+ have a cap on the key you can do then the gear needs to stop. It's not going to be used for anything else and giving higher ilvls for doing content you've done with lower is redundant. It is a means to an end. What you choose as the end is the point.

Mythic raids have caps on the gear ilvl, they don't inflate the faster you do it because there nothing further to push once you've cleared that content.

I don't want it to be relevant. It is relevant if you're using it for something. If you're not, it's not.

The original poster simply wants more gear. He doesn't say why, just that's unfair there's one drop less. OK, so there's one drop less, if all you do after you've cleared it is go sit in Stormwind and aren't pushing the next level of key. It serves no purpose anyway.

[bullseyed]

M+ obviously got fucked by this change but M+ was (in my opinion) implemented under the assumption they would never have to get rid off Titanforging or a similiar system.

I'd have to look it up, but i remember that Blizzard has, up until ~Spring 2020, consistently shot down the idea of ever going back to "regular loot".

All the people whining about getting purple drops that weren't upgrades "feels bad" finally won. This is what the community asked for.

[Acidbaron]

Wasn't the intend to make raids more viable, this seems to make little difference for people who raid mythic and seems to increase the grind for other players.

Not sure how wise it is to discourage casuals, arguably your biggest segment in participating in said content.

[sanaubia]

Didn't buy shadowlands at launch, learned from my mistake in BFA, and this pretty much sealed the deal. I just want to farm M+ with good setup, but guess it will never be viable way to gear/compete with others, unless you farm raids :/

[Malania]

Didn't buy shadowlands at launch, learned from my mistake in BFA, and this pretty much sealed the deal. I just want to farm M+ with good setup, but guess it will never be viable way to gear/compete with others, unless you farm raids :/

No it wouldn't and never should be. Sorry but Raiding and Arena should be the highest level of content.

[bullseyed]

It goed both ways, let’s say you raid on a 6 hour schedule a week clearing you will most likely get at least two loots and each week an increasing chance to get more through guildies who trade you.

Now go pug 6 high level keys and the chances are very real you will end up with 0 loot or 1 at most and no guarantee it will improve next reset through trades

If you do 6 hours of M+ with no drops its because you're bad at the game.

[Rinaul]

Meh I play for keys not raid. When tier comes out I'll do LFR for the bonus and continue on keys. The loot gain rate just makes me feel like when I spent months in vanilla trying to get my paladin tier 0 helm. It's the time ya gotta put in and I don't mind it. If I got everything I need this month then what? Guess I'd unsub or have to take Pokémon battles. It's not as fast as before. About a month in and still stuck with a heroic weapon on my dk that I strictly only play. So /shrug

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure if its the new generation, or just people getting "fat and bored" (in WoW) - they're not used to having to suffer through effort to get the gear they want.

While I agree with you I also think it's blizzards fault. We have a bunch of new players who don't recall the effort that used to be required. Instead they recall the loot showered on them immediately possibly starting in wod or Legion for sure with M+. Some of these guys don't know any better or choose to forget the past.

[kaminaris]

Yes it does exist. It's not the major issue it was were you required X amount of classes with T6 but since T6 was gated behind completing T5 content first you could only take players on who'd done it already (so players from the other top guilds on your server) or were prepared to boost through previous levels of content. Which was time consuming. That was poaching. Titanforge poaching was simply players moving around, they didn't need to be the same level of content. There were no walls preventing them like there used to be

Lower level players joining a guild higher progressed absolutely is a thing currently and has been since attunements were removed. It's easier to recruit from the same level or have your DPS switch to a tank but there's no physical blocks. I can prove this since I have done it myself twice when my previous guilds collapsed?

So your post is that loot should be given out again freely again? Given out free loot also made players do content way above their level of ability to do simply because they had the gear to do it. I personally ran a M0 on Wednesday where I took a tank on an M0 @ 175, well within the gear range of M0 and he had no idea what he was doing. Using bubble and dropping aggro, when told not to use bubble, he asked what it was? Yet he had the gear to do it. Gear is the indicator of the content they should be able to do. Being given it does not improve player ability or understanding. Being given participation rewards is always a disaster if you flood the market with inferior talent.

I believe gear should be earned yes, but also that it serves a purpose. For example because M+ technically has no cap I'm find with M+ ilvl scaling gear to keep pushing harder content. Should M+ have a cap on the key you can do then the gear needs to stop. It's not going to be used for anything else and giving higher ilvls for doing content you've done with lower is redundant. It is a means to an end. What you choose as the end is the point.

Mythic raids have caps on the gear ilvl, they don't inflate the faster you do it because there nothing further to push once you've cleared that content.

I don't want it to be relevant. It is relevant if you're using it for something. If you're not, it's not.

The original poster simply wants more gear. He doesn't say why, just that's unfair there's one drop less. OK, so there's one drop less, if all you do after you've cleared it is go sit in Stormwind and aren't pushing the next level of key. It serves no purpose anyway.

He wants more gear to not be fucked by RNG and have ability to jump to action after tanking a break. He also wants the ability to recruit new players.
He also wants to be rewarded by playing, not just by end of week lottery.

There you go.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

They also reduced loot drops in raiding too? Wow, and here I was thinking to maybe try raiding again to satisfy my loot hunt. That's a bummer, maybe I should skip SL after all, I like pretty much EVERYTHING in SL, covenants, torghast and legendary crafting/collecting. But the loot reduction makes it sooo unrewarding to play.

That's the point though, this is the first time loot actually feels rewarding since mid MoP (when Thunderforged, the first version of Titanforged, was implemented).

By far, the greatest change of the entire expansion.

[kaminaris]

That's the point though, this is the first time loot actually feels rewarding since mid MoP (when Thunderforged, the first version of Titanforged, was implemented).

By far, the greatest change of the entire expansion.

Except you know, these changes were made to counter issues with loot rng fiesta that could fuck you up good.
Loot doesn't feel "rewarding" if you never get them.