Cyberpunk 2077

[Mehrunes]

Ah yes, the power of the PS4 and it being a last gen version running in BC with boost mode enhancements is a major reason why you can't exit the settings menu. What a genius reply.

Point out where have I said anything about anything about the reason you can't exit the settings menu. Oh, that's right, it doesn't exist anywhere in my post and you had to make it up.

What does however exist in my post is the part (as in, the entirety of what my post was actually about) where I pointed out that you called @Selastan a liar for talking about the game's issues being limited to the last gen version and repeatedly brought up the PS5 version in response to it to "prove" it doesn't affect last gen alone - to the point you even brought that up while replying to an unrelated post in a call out - only to do a complete 180 on the topic whooping three posts after your last reply to Selastan in that vein, at which point you yourself called the version currently available on PS5 last gen.

You did that, all on your own and completely unprompted, just because you wanted to have it both ways, depending on which "truth" (supposedly what you were after there, as per your reply on the issue to @yasiru) was more convenient to you at the given time. You can straw-man my previous post (and, predictably, this reply as well) all you want. Absolutely nothing you can do can change the fact that you made two contradictory claims as to what the PS4 version played on PS5 is.

Unless you want me to believe that the PS4 version ran on PS5 is in some kind of generation superposition and it's both last gen and not last gen at once, through some mysterious means. But in that case, what would that make the actual incoming PS5 version? Next-gen plus?

[Saltysquidoon]

On the bug side of Cyberpunk, I wonder if anyone will manage to wrangle an answer out of CDPR that we never manage to get out of any developer: namely, why are these bugs here? This is the part I'm always really curious about but it always gets swept under the rug. Were these bugs really not found in QA? Given the volume and severity, that seems unlikely, so what decisions were made? Did devs think the problems were less severe than they really were? I'd really love to see an in-depth post mortem of how the issues at release got a greenlight.

Guess it worked on QA's machines.

No, but seriously I'm sure it's the same as any production facility. QA finds a problem and kicks it up (because QA's only reason to exist is seen as getting between the company and money QA never has any real power and are treated like actual scum), another link in the chain decide whether it's worth their ass to explain to a real manager that its' worth it to slow production to fix it or if it doesn't comply with the law or if you can get away with doing nothing.

It would seem to me this combined with running out of time due to apparent mismanagement made the decision to do nothing ever more enticing as the launch date neared.
That and there's the cynical PR consumer-tribalism side (which is on full display in this thread), companies generally have it pretty well dialed in how much good will they can burn per product.

[Cringefest]

This is completely subjective. There is no quantifiable measure of "soulfulness". Hold up, let me get out my scale to measure the amount of soul in... that's ridiculous.

YOU are making that value judgment, and the measure of it is known only to YOU the precise amount of "soul" the game is lacking.

Again, who is going to advertise their product as "Just average. Some people might like it though."


I agree, but "luster" is again subjective.

It is not. Someone else saying, "I enjoy this thing." literally contradicts an abstract and object notion that it is just one way according to you.

Fencers, are you sure you want to get into the mud as well? Ok not sure why but. .. Whatever


No it's not subjective AT ALL. CDPR made some very specific claims about what you'd be able to do in game. These claims were not backed up. That's not an opinion.

Customisation? A few presets on character creation. Can't even change your haircut in game. Games from 15 years ago were offering more customisation.

Your choices affect the game. This has been refuted several times. Your initial story changes nothing really. The game is linear and in the majority of cases you have no input. Both small term, with your dialogue options and long term, overall the arching story.

Get immersed in Night City. How? There's videos comparing stuff like, interacting with vendors, eating food, talking to random npcs between CP2077 and other games and it's painful to watch. Gta 3 had better AI and a more interactive environment. Fact here is, there is LESS interaction between the player and the environment than there is in other games of a similar genre.

So let's take a standard open world game of the past 8 years. There's more customisation, interaction with the world, and more choices available to the player. That is undeniable, whether people enjoy CP2077 or not.
Would you not agree?

Also in terms of advertising. Yes that's right. No one will advertise that as such. They used the wrong terminology however. They advertised as something that will "revolutionise the way we see open world". It did for sure but not in the right way.

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Law suits are being considered, they're not being sued yet. Also the lawsuits are for misleading shareholders for financial benefits, not for lying to consumers.

As a consumer it absolutely is your fault.

How exactly. If a developer says "there will be X in game" then X is not in game, how is that the fault of the customer. Puzzling statement.

[Gaidax]

On the bug side of Cyberpunk, I wonder if anyone will manage to wrangle an answer out of CDPR that we never manage to get out of any developer: namely, why are these bugs here? This is the part I'm always really curious about but it always gets swept under the rug. Were these bugs really not found in QA? Given the volume and severity, that seems unlikely, so what decisions were made? Did devs think the problems were less severe than they really were? I'd really love to see an in-depth post mortem of how the issues at release got a greenlight.

I used to be a QA manager and bugs being in the release does not mean QA did not find them, they most likely did, especially if it's something very obvious. Things like police behavior and what not - you can bet QA found it, reported it and everyone knew about it - it was just not the highest priority thing to fix/address.

The issue more often than not is simply that more critical issues are prioritized first and judging by the state game launched in - you can bet they had very big issues all the way to the end far more serious than whatever bugs you may be seeing now.

[XDurionX]

Best game of the year, no contest. Can't even count the memorable quests anymore. Haven't had so much fun in years. I'm crying tears.

[Fencers]

No it's not subjective AT ALL.

No, that is ridiculous. Do you have the quantifiable data on soulfulness, fun, and luster?

Come on, dude. This is the dumbest thing you could possibly type. Nowhere is any other medium on earth is the notion of enjoyment objective fact.

No such thing exists.

CDPR made some very specific claims about what you'd be able to do in game. These claims were not backed up. That's not an opinion.

That is not related to what you typed in the reply I quoted. It's mostly irrelevant here actually.

I quoted you directly in a single post and spoke to the content of what I quoted directly. No one is going to play football with 213 pages of whatever you may have said to Bo on page 132.

Customisation? A few presets on character creation. Can't even change your haircut in game. Games from 15 years ago were offering more customisation.

You can still customize your character though. The degree to which someone is satisfied with those options is subjective. Where did CDPR outline the exact extent of customization? Then we would have something to nail on this point.

However, being satisfied by what is presented is a subjective quality.

If I made Pere a Vino Bianco for a guest I do not get to judge their level of satisfaction with the dish.

I could not write a story and say, "You are now satisfied and pleased with the outcome!"

How people feel about entertainment or art is 100% subjective.

If you tried to tell an artist how their work is intended to be and is objectively received they would laugh you out of the building or ignore you. Imagine Lou Reed taking you seriously because you are saying it is an objective fact, "Candy Says" is a "lackluster".

It is one of the dumbest possible notions to think enjoyment is not subjective to the audience.

Your choices affect the game. This has been refuted several times. Your initial story changes nothing really. The game is linear and in the majority of cases you have no input. Both small term, with your dialogue options and long term, overall the arching story.

Get immersed in Night City. How? There's videos comparing stuff like, interacting with vendors, eating food, talking to random npcs between CP2077 and other games and it's painful to watch. Gta 3 had better AI and a more interactive environment. Fact here is, there is LESS interaction between the player and the environment than there is in other games of a similar genre.

All this has nothing to do with what I quoted or replied to and even if was, these are subjective qualities.

What tool or instrument of object measure are you using to produce data on individual player "immersion"?

What setting do I have to adjust the meter of my FACTS-Meter™ to accurately detect Joe Gamer's level of immersion or suspension of disbelief?

Again, this is outright nonsense and would not apply to any other entertainment medium at all and never had- ever.

So let's take a standard open world game of the past 8 years. There's more customisation, interaction with the world, and more choices available to the player. That is undeniable, whether people enjoy CP2077 or not.
Would you not agree?

I agree CP2077 is not as robust as other games in the genre and adjacent genres in gameplay systems. Though that doesn't stop someone from enjoying the game despite my opinion on CP2077.

That is at best foolish, and worst stupid.

Also in terms of advertising. Yes that's right. No one will advertise that as such. They used the wrong terminology, however. They advertised as something that will "revolutionise the way we see open world". It did for sure but not in the right way.

Firstly, there is a difference between Expressed and Implied claims when advertising and mostly only holds weight in the basis of actual quantifiable data or examples.

When my company does Advertisement Claims Investigation, for example, we can nail Hostess on the quantifiable amount of sugar in their product vs. what is claimed expressly.

We can also get a company on what they imply in their advertisement. For example, "Our sugar-free twinkies help promote a healthy lifestyle!"

You can not get one over on a company because they say, "Our cupcakes are amazing and you'll never enjoy another cupcake again! They are revolutionary cupcakes!"

Who and what judge is weighing the evidence of scientific or quantifiable evidence of "revolution" in the play experience of a video game?

As I said, before, "Is Pepsi the taste of a new generation?"

What if I don't think it is the taste of a new generation. What tools and food scientists will come to my aid for the truth in advertising claim that I can lodge a complaint of the OBJECT fact Pepsi is for old people? Please let me know because I really dislike Pepsi.

[GreenJesus]

Kinda sorta. This is more just them not needing to bother with making the part of the body you can't see look good because...they don't have to. It's not as if it's some incredible feat of animation or engineering, but why waste the time on it if the player's never going to see it? I hate to use "cutting corners" because it has a negative connotation, but this was a smart use of resources on their part. Given the state of the rest of the game (at least on console), I wouldn't have wanted them spending time on this anyways.

Why did they bother with all the customization if you can't even turn your camera around to inspect/ take pictures of yourself in different areas of the game? Seems like a horrible decision to make an open world RPG game 100% first person. Like. they could have just made it so when in combat you get locked into first person, but out in the world you can choose to zoom out.

[Fencers]

I used to be a QA manager and bugs being in the release does not mean QA did not find them, they most likely did, especially if it's something very obvious. Things like police behavior and what not - you can bet QA found it, reported it and everyone knew about it - it was just not the highest priority thing to fix/address.

The issue more often than not is simply that more critical issues are prioritized first and judging by the state game launched in - you can bet they had very big issues all the way to the end far more serious than whatever bugs you may be seeing now.

I also worked in QA as both a team lead and team supervisor; I second this as a likely scenario and process.

QA feedback is usually pretty voluminous and verbose in many cases. Team leads and members very often let the Project Manager or Group Director know exactly what they found in a lot of detail.

The reality of development is the other team directors have to prioritize workflow and that is a weighted judgment outside of the hands of QA in many cases.

It's really not the fault of QA in many cases where technical issues are this apparent and widespread but of positioning the product for the market.

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Why did they bother with all the customization if you can't even turn your camera around to inspect/ take pictures of yourself in different areas of the game? Seems like a horrible decision to make an open world RPG game 100% first person. Like. they could have just made it so when in combat you get locked into first person, but out in the world you can choose to zoom out.

You can look in mirrors and there is a "selfie" cam type thing in-game. If you are on PC the default key is N, IIRC.

Just an FYI if you did not know.

[AidanJLowe]

Why did they bother with all the customization if you can't even turn your camera around to inspect/ take pictures of yourself in different areas of the game? Seems like a horrible decision to make an open world RPG game 100% first person. Like. they could have just made it so when in combat you get locked into first person, but out in the world you can choose to zoom out.

I was legit just asking myself the same thing.

Honestly the "RPG choices" apart from the end choice are an illusion of meaningful choices and most of the story lines play out the same throughout the game. I believe it's the same with customization, outside of camera mode and the mirror it has no purpose whatsoever to customize V because of the lock on first to third person viewing and it not being an online RPG version. And the camera mode is for a select group of the playerbase imo, I know about it but don't play around with it. The one time I did look in the mirror the game made my V completely bald instead.

[Captain Proton]

Fencers, are you sure you want to get into the mud as well? Ok not sure why but. .. Whatever


No it's not subjective AT ALL. CDPR made some very specific claims about what you'd be able to do in game. These claims were not backed up. That's not an opinion.

Customisation? A few presets on character creation. Can't even change your haircut in game. Games from 15 years ago were offering more customisation.

Your choices affect the game. This has been refuted several times. Your initial story changes nothing really. The game is linear and in the majority of cases you have no input. Both small term, with your dialogue options and long term, overall the arching story.

Get immersed in Night City. How? There's videos comparing stuff like, interacting with vendors, eating food, talking to random npcs between CP2077 and other games and it's painful to watch. Gta 3 had better AI and a more interactive environment. Fact here is, there is LESS interaction between the player and the environment than there is in other games of a similar genre.

So let's take a standard open world game of the past 8 years. There's more customisation, interaction with the world, and more choices available to the player. That is undeniable, whether people enjoy CP2077 or not.
Would you not agree?

Also in terms of advertising. Yes that's right. No one will advertise that as such. They used the wrong terminology however. They advertised as something that will "revolutionise the way we see open world". It did for sure but not in the right way.

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How exactly. If a developer says "there will be X in game" then X is not in game, how is that the fault of the customer. Puzzling statement.

1) Customization does exist. Does it meet your standard? Clearly not, but it exists. A few preset? As in how many? You're trying to make it seem like its 3-5 when it actually has more than that. There's also more customization when you DONT CHOOSE THE PRESET OPTION lol.

2) Again, choices exist. Here's a list: http://www.gamersheroes.com/game-gui...quences-guide/
Not going into them for spoiler reaons because I just started the game Saturday, but again they exist.

3) Immersion is up to the person. I can easily get immersed. You act like these features of standard open world games. They aren't. There's Rockstar and then everyone else way below when it comes to this. Ghost of Tsushima, Assassins Creeds, even Elder Scrolls have limited environment interaction in their open world. Exagerrating for the sake of exagerrating.


Not sure if trolling or lack of reading. I was referring to the hype and PR, if you believed 100% of what they said that's on you. I was clearly not referring to implementation of said features lmao.

Is this the first game you've followed or something?

[Saltysquidoon]

However, being satisfied by what is presented is a subjective quality.
*snip*
How people feel about entertainment or art is 100% subjective.

If you tried to tell an artist how their work is intended to be and is objectively received they would laugh you out of the building or ignore you. Imagine Lou Reed taking you seriously because you are saying it is an objective fact, "Candy Says" is a "lackluster".

It is one of the dumbest possible notions to think enjoyment is not subjective to the audience.

Art is subjective and people are free to feel however they want about any given work (up to an including having no standards and terrible taste), that's one of the perks of living in a society where you are free to appreciate art.

However, the mistake the "aRt Is 1)0% sUbjEcTiVe (and by implicit extension if I couch any claim in these terms I can never be wrong)" crowd (and I'm not saying this is you, it's just happening a lot in this thread) seem to forget is that there are a whole bunch of sociocultural(and political) factors that go into the enjoyment of art beyond what the individual subjectively believes.
This is why if I say Moby Dick is good, people are going to have a much harder time displacing my assertion. Then If I say my warhammer 40k/sonic oc cross-over self insert fanfiction is good.

A person saying "I'm having a blast (and ipso facto the product is good and if you disagree too bad that's my opinion and art is 100% subjective)" Is making the same logical mistake as someone who says "the game softlocked me (and thus possesses an objective technical failing) it is impossible for anyone to enjoy the game".

[Cringefest]

No, that is ridiculous. Do you have the quantifiable data on soulfulness, fun, and luster?
Come on, dude. This is the dumbest thing you could possibly type. Nowhere is any other medium on earth is the notion of enjoyment objective fact.
No such thing exists.

A flat world, without interaction and dumb AI. How would you define that? What's the right terminology? Notice I didn't mention fun. Fun is a personal thing. Having no interaction with the world (fact) and a non responsive AI (fact) however, are factual elements that make Night City less interactive, less "alive". Not everything is based on individual perception come on let move away from the 70s°

That is not related to what you typed in the reply I quoted. It's mostly irrelevant here actually.

I quoted you directly in a single post and spoke to the content of what I quoted directly. No one is going to play football with 213 pages of whatever you may have said to Bo on page 132.

It is related. The moment CDPR said "this is going to be an X game" they agreed to a set of standards that defines what makes X genre good. That's how we determine if a game is "good" or "bad". Open world rpg? OK. Give me immersion, rpg elements, variety. Can you enjoy a game that goes below the bar that has been set by the games that came before? Of course you can. That's personal. But if you show up with an open world rpg in 2020 with an AI dumber than GTA3 (2001) and a world less interactive than any game set in an open world setting (can't sit down and eat? Oblivion had that ffs), than your product is below standard.

You can still customize your character though. The degree to which someone is satisfied with those options is subjective. Where did CDPR outline the exact extent of customization? Then we would have something to nail on this point.

However, being satisfied by what is presented is a subjective quality.

If I made Pere a Vino Bianco for a guest I do not get to judge their level of satisfaction with the dish.

I could not write a story and say, "You are now satisfied and pleased with the outcome!"

How people feel about entertainment or art is 100% subjective.

If you tried to tell an artist how their work is intended to be and is objectively received they would laugh you out of the building or ignore you. Imagine Lou Reed taking you seriously because you are saying it is an objective fact, "Candy Says" is a "lackluster".

It is one of the dumbest possible notions to think enjoyment is not subjective to the audience.

When they said you'd have complete freedom to do whatever you want with your char. You're still talking enjoyment. That's personal. The 8 preset haircuts, dozen of noses and whatever else however, speak a different story. You're taking this the wrong way. If whatever ingredient you used for your dish was rotten, we can objectively say your dish was poor. I can enjoy it still, sure. I love my rotten fish in the morning, but the dish you prepared is still objectively bad as the ingredients are faulty. This is what happened to the game here. The ingredients mixed to get us that specific dish they wanted to prepare are all wrong. You can enjoy it that's cool, but that surely ain't lasagna.

All this has nothing to do with what I quoted or replied to and even if was, these are subjective qualities.

What tool or instrument of object measure are you using to produce data on individual player "immersion"?

What setting do I have to adjust the meter of my FACTS-Meter™ to accurately detect Joe Gamer's level of immersion or suspension of disbelief?

Again, this is outright nonsense and would not apply to any other entertainment medium at all and never had- ever.

That last sentence is preposterous. What makes a good Western, a good action movie, a good ballad, a good novel are a set of ingredients (to refer to the analogy above) that is very well defined. Otherwise you have a cacophony of individualism where everything is good and everything is bad. Enough of that shit please, once again let's move away from the 70s. Let's define immersion. Graphics definitely helps. Can't deny that CP2077 nails it there. Although if you look deeply, you can see that the aesthetics of this sci fi world are at times random, non functional. But that's minimal. The world is definitely immersive at least in a visual way. Let's dig deeper though. Interaction. That's a big thing for immersion. Interacting with the world and its inhabitants is a big part of what defines immersion. You can't use chairs in CP2077. You can't buy a soup and eat it. It sends you to an interface where the food instantly disappears and that's it. Compare it to red dead redemption for example. Let's talk interaction with NPCs. Actually let's not, you know well what's going on there. The result is a beautiful world, with no depth. Can you get immersed? Surely. Can you enjoy it? Surely. How does it compare to similar titles of the same genre? Poorly. Way below standard.

I agree CP2077 is not as robust as other games in the genre and adjacent genres in gameplay systems. Though that doesn't stop someone from enjoying the game despite my opinion on CP2077.

That is at best foolish, and worst stupid.

Same point again. Enjoyment is personal. The judgement given to a product belonging to a specific genre however, can and has to be objective. Enough of individual worlds with their individual opinions. Look at the mess that shit brought us.

Firstly, there is a difference between Expressed and Implied claims when advertising and mostly only holds weight in the basis of actual quantifiable data or examples.

When my company does Advertisement Claims Investigation, for example, we can nail Hostess on the quantifiable amount of sugar in their product vs. what is claimed expressly.

We can also get a company on what they imply in their advertisement. For example, "Our sugar-free twinkies help promote a healthy lifestyle!"

You can not get one over on a company because they say, "Our cupcakes are amazing and you'll never enjoy another cupcake again! They are revolutionary cupcakes!"

Who and what judge is weighing the evidence of scientific or quantifiable evidence of "revolution" in the play experience of a video game?

As I said, before, "Is Pepsi the taste of a new generation?"

What if I don't think it is the taste of a new generation. What tools and food scientists will come to my aid for the truth in advertising claim that I can lodge a complaint of the OBJECT fact Pepsi is for old people? Please let me know because I really dislike Pepsi.

And same here, totally tasteless.
Revolutionising a taste is based on something purely personal. Taste. Revolutionising a genre however, well... That's based on a very quantifiable set of factors as per described above. Can you sue Pepsi for being tasteless? Nope. Can you blame Pepsi if a specific ingredient of a specific batch was poisonous? Hell yeah. Can you call a ballad with a trash metal drum beat, still a ballad? Can you call a book about in depth marine biology a novel? Genres do have factors they need to adhere to if they want to be called that.

Now, can a game or a product of any kind, break the boundaries of its genre? Yes, and that's a work of genius. Dark souls 1 does that. Depth through world building, and sparse, incredibly good writing. An action adventure game deeper than many full on open world rpgs out there. But those, let's face it are far and few in between. And CP2077 surely isn't one of them.
And I'm sorry, because as much as I hate the way this turned into, I had great hopes. I'm tired of fantasy, a break would have been so good. Pity. Next time I guess.

[Selastan]

They can't do that anyway. It's not like they have tons of games going on rn. The next would be the next Witcher and that's years away.

And the people who say their reputation is "beyond repair". I don't get it. Until when is it "beyond repair". Because if they survive this, meaning not go bankrupt and close office, then they will make another game eventually. When they do, if that game is as good or better than the Witcher 3 without any of the CP2077 shenanigans that have happened in the past 2 weeks then everyone will love them again. Simple as that. Saying their reputation is "beyond repair" is pretty silly.

I mean, I'm a fan of Cyberpunk, not CDPR. I'm not worried about them failing as a whole, I'm worried about them dropping the Cyberpunk IP. I could care less if they made another Witcher or whatever, it's more Cyberpunk I want.

[Cringefest]

1) Customization does exist. Does it meet your standard? Clearly not, but it exists. A few preset? As in how many? You're trying to make it seem like its 3-5 when it actually has more than that. There's also more customization when you DONT CHOOSE THE PRESET OPTION lol.

2) Again, choices exist. Here's a list: http://www.gamersheroes.com/game-gui...quences-guide/
Not going into them for spoiler reaons because I just started the game Saturday, but again they exist.

3) Immersion is up to the person. I can easily get immersed. You act like these features of standard open world games. They aren't. There's Rockstar and then everyone else way below when it comes to this. Ghost of Tsushima, Assassins Creeds, even Elder Scrolls have limited environment interaction in their open world. Exagerrating for the sake of exagerrating.


Not sure if trolling or lack of reading. I was referring to the hype and PR, if you believed 100% of what they said that's on you. I was clearly not referring to implementation of said features lmao.

Is this the first game you've followed or something?

Yes it's the first game I've followed and I hate them. I even ripped the cyberpunk 2077 poster I had in my bedroom. My mom was very worried.

[Captain Proton]

Yes it's the first game I've followed and I hate them. I even ripped the cyberpunk 2077 poster I had in my bedroom. My mom was very worried.

Ah, figured. No wonder you get fooled by marketing.

[Thereturn]

Customisation? A few presets on character creation. Can't even change your haircut in game. Games from 15 years ago were offering more customisation.

Mate.. cant contest on the other points but a game that let you customize penis size and pubic hair style is ‘up there’ as far as customiZation goes.

[Cringefest]

Mate.. cant contest on the other points but a game that let you customize penis size and pubic hair style is ‘up there’ as far as customiZation goes.

They could have added a slider!

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Ah, figured. No wonder you get fooled by marketing.

AND cried salty tears while hugging my waifu pillow!

[segara82]

I mean, I'm a fan of Cyberpunk, not CDPR. I'm not worried about them failing as a whole, I'm worried about them dropping the Cyberpunk IP. I could care less if they made another Witcher or whatever, it's more Cyberpunk I want.

I would not worry, Witcher 3 had tons of bugs at the start, but after all the fixes and DLC is lauded as THE RPG of the decade.
Yes, CDPR is in somewhat trouble for the console-refunds, but that too will pass.

[Captain Proton]

They could have added a slider!

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AND cried salty tears while hugging my waifu pillow!

Actually got some sort of rebuttal? No? Didn't think so.

[Cringefest]

I would not worry, Witcher 3 had tons of bugs at the start, but after all the fixes and DLC is lauded as THE RPG of the decade.
Yes, CDPR is in somewhat trouble for the console-refunds, but that too will pass.

There's deeper issues than bugs.

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Actually got some sort of rebuttal? No? Didn't think so.

Not for you no. Whatever I said to fencers applies to you too.