Cyberpunk 2077

[prwraith]

This is just me stopping in to say holy shit the amount of crafting mats needed to hit 20 >.<

[nuffisenough]

This is just me stopping in to say holy shit the amount of crafting mats needed to hit 20 >.<

There is an easy workaround for that. Just get a huge stack of a consumable (preferably the common/basic level healing item) and have it actively equipped on your character screen. Then hover over it and hold the dismantle/salvage button even though the prompt doesn’t show up for you. Just make sure to only salvage one of them and not the whole stack. It will still dismantle the one single item but give you experience as if you dismantled the entire stack. The larger the stack of items, the more experience it gives you.

That’s what I did to leveling crafting from 15-20. It was just taking too long to try to do it legit.

[prwraith]

There is an easy workaround for that. Just get a huge stack of a consumable (preferably the common/basic level healing item) and have it actively equipped on your character screen. Then hover over it and hold the dismantle/salvage button even though the prompt doesn’t show up for you. Just make sure to only salvage one of them and not the whole stack. It will still dismantle it the one single item but give your experience as if you dismantled the entire stack. The larger the stack of items, the more experience it gives you.

I mean I'm trying to avoid unintended exploits as it were haha. Right now my key source of mats is raiding every nicola blue vending machine for miles.

[nuffisenough]

I mean I'm trying to avoid unintended exploits as it were haha. Right now my key source of mats is raiding every nicola blue vending machine for miles.

I get that. But doing it legit was taking far too long. It’s one of the only exploits I used because I was tired of my crafting lagging behind and not being able to bring my items up to legendary even though I was at “end game” already. Being able to craft Legendaries is the only way to acquire the legendary version of iconic weapons, which is what all of my weapons were. So I said fuck it and did the salvage exploit.

[Fencers]

A flat world, without interaction and dumb AI. How would you define that?

How would you? You need to have a quantifiable measure of 'flat' and 'dumb' for this to be the basis of anything objective.

We would also need a predefined level of interactivity to contrast what is present in CP2077 and have a statement or claim which directly or implies a level of interactivity exactly. Because CDPR could just as easily say, “Opening a door, talking to an NPC, driving a vehicle, etc is interactive and there is ample precedent for such level of interactivity in line with our product.” Blah, blah.

If it were a civil case, they would likely win with just that- it's easy. See; Drake Cakes vs. Hostess I alluded to earlier.

This still has nothing to do with the notion you asserted earlier there is an objective standard that governs in some respect another's enjoyment. That is totally wrong.

People can & do like “bad” movies and games and find enjoyment in them. It is not a matter of fact these are bad entertainment pieces. However, it is a matter of fact some people claim to enjoy these so-called and sometimes widely considered “bad” products.

It is related. The moment CDPR said "this is going to be an X game" they agreed to a set of standards that defines what makes X genre good. That's how we determine if a game is "good" or "bad".

Everything here and the section I am cutting for brevity is false both as an objective standard and method for determination in video games in particular.

Where are the definitions and a measure for “immersion”, “RPG elements”, etc? Moreover, not every player, reviewer, or journalist would agree on the same set of criteria or to the same degree- which again, we would need to control as some sort of measure to have an objective standard. This is impossible and unreasonable.

What you ought to say is CP2077 does not meet what is widely or largely considered among X/Y/Z to be above the standard of A/B/C. That would be accurate and measurable both formally and informally.

Asserting “immersion” is a fact to be charted on a graph for player engagement? Nah, man. That is as I said before, “stupid”- which I don’t mean in a manner directly offensive to the person but to the notion because it lacks intellect and sensibility.

When they said you'd have complete freedom to do whatever you want with your char. You're still talking enjoyment. That's personal. The 8 preset haircuts, dozen of noses and whatever else however, speak a different story. You're taking this the wrong way. If whatever ingredient you used for your dish was rotten, we can objectively say your dish was poor. I can enjoy it still, sure. I love my rotten fish in the morning, but the dish you prepared is still objectively bad as the ingredients are faulty. This is what happened to the game here. The ingredients mixed to get us that specific dish they wanted to prepare are all wrong. You can enjoy it that's cool, but that surely ain't lasagna.

I am not making an argument CP2077 is a “good” game. Only there being an objective measure of components in what others enjoy is absolutely false. You or I thinking CP2077 is a “bad” game is simply our opinion. Your opinion (or mine) does not in any way dictate the enjoyment someone else may be getting out of the game.

That is not true with regards to cooking, btw. Some cuisines use intentionally spoiled or rotten products as part of the process or as a practical means. These are not explicitly fermented or aged products either. Chilean, Italian, Indian and some African, and Inuit also incorporate spoiled foods and make dishes intentionally with spoiled or otherwise 'off' items.

Such as spoiled seal ribs or Italian cheese intentionally left to rot and develop living fly larvae, maggots, and consumed with the larvae actively eating the cheese. It is not objectively “faulty” if I can choose to make lasagna with this casu marzu. Your expectation or conception of lasagna may be different, but I did make a lasagna.

A chef doesn’t necessarily have to present a dish as you expect- I once had ‘celery’ where the chef created a foam of the essence of celery and one breathed in the foam while looking at a picture of a celery stalk. Without presenting to you the exact ingredients, I can present whatever I want on the plate or table.

The world is wide, brother.

Same point again. Enjoyment is personal. The judgement given to a product belonging to a specific genre however, can and has to be objective. Enough of individual worlds with their individual opinions. Look at the mess that shit brought us.

Impossible and is never done. Ever.

There is no objective measure of what makes a genre in particular in any medium.

Even in music theory, perhaps the most exhaustive of disciplines that study genre, there are not object means by which the whole field agrees a genre strictly operates. This is what my husband studied (he is a drummer) and boy howdy do musicologist have varying opinions on what ‘genre’ is and isn’t. Believe me, I have been “informed" of Tales of Topographic Oceans and “Honor Thy Father” thoroughly and against my will, largely.

There are elements widely agreed upon to constitute a genre. I personally am quite insistent on this as film is a passion of mine and I think without definition application of genre is useless. If you were styling your commentary in this manner, I would agree with your overall point.

Though one will find no scholarly or professional assertion there is an objective measure of genre in entertainment in the modern context. These are “rules” that exist in one’s own mind, to be frank.

Revolutionising a taste is based on something purely personal. Taste. Revolutionising a genre however, well...

Need to define and measure “revolution”. It’s just a slogan otherwise no matter how profoundly a CDPR director stated it on Youtube or filmed themselves atop a mountain screaming a change was coming.

That is quite a different thing from causing harm to a consumer directly or indirectly or with intent or not, by the way. Quite different and I doubt a court would disagree with me on this too. Highly.

Also, yes. A ballad can have a trash metal drum beat. That is not even very progressive either- Flatsom & Jetsam, Devin Townsend, Death Angel, and others have already done this to great effect. PIL, Flowers of Romance? Suicide, Suicide? This Heat, This Heat? I once heard Mark Stewart purely scream bloody murder into a mic in a beautiful song and expression of romance.

Again, the world is wide. Fascism is stupid.

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It was in 2018 I think they released a video about it. Noting that although the game will be in first person that you will have tons of opportunities to see your character in the world via reflections like any person would which was supposed to make it more immersive and natural. Which would have been cool... perhaps one day they'll do it.

Hm, That seems vague and would be accurate to what is present. You can see yourself and there are mirrors everywhere; which take like a minute to load for whatever reason.

It does seem misleading and out of line with other games though. I do not care about this look up CDPR quotes on it though. I find the mirrors annoying.

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My post was really more of a meta-commentary on the efficacy (and logical failings) of "I subjectively did/didn't enjoy *product*, therefore, it is good/bad and you can't comment otherwise because it is my opinion". I was only quoting you as a means of contextualizing it to the current conversation.

If we take enjoyment to be 100% individually subjective (which I contend, but, sticking with it) then the argument is cannibalistic, it renders itself invalid by its own existence.

If we accept that there are external socio/politi/cultural factors influence enjoyment. Which I absolutely believe, as it explains the existence of millennia-old themes in
even modern works, or established genres, or fad and trends and why companies spend money on focus groups/marketing/pr.
Then the simple assertion thrown out into the ether with no support then it is equally invalid.
If I say "I enjoyed Moby Dick because it is the best romantic comedy ever written" and when pressed I don't attempt to defend myself then the argument is equally invalid.

There are some interpretations of Moby Dick as a romance and even having LGBTQ elements attached to Queequay (however it is spelled) as far back when I was young.

Genre definitions are transitory and malleable. And always have been to one degree or another.

"I enjoy or like X" as an implicit indicator of quality is well, limited, to put it lightly. But contextual information and interpretation is the basis of almost all critique, especially of media, and that has never been standardized in any way as objective. That just doesn't even exist practically.

This is an imaginary notion some people hold, however.

[Themius]

Hm, That seems vague and would be accurate to what is present. You can see yourself and there are mirrors everywhere; which take like a minute to load for whatever reason.

It does seem misleading and out of line with other games though. I do not care about this look up CDPR quotes on it though. I find the mirrors annoying.

That isn't accurate to what is present. natural reflections not activate a mirror. The video is followed by V walking in front of a standing floor mirror and seeing their reflection. It's so so so odd to me how they couldn't get something as simple as mirrors done...

Then again maybe I shouldn't be surprised. The game was in Alpha May 2019, and everyone within the company was shocked when CDPR lied to the public saying it was done in January and just needed polishing

[kaminaris]

Lol, if you think that would hold in any court, not that it matters(because it will not go to court), you are downright wrong.

Any judge would look at the shitstorm, the pulling from the storefronts, the multiple patches, the refunds and the constant apologies that adresses the performances on these consoles, and they would call bullshit. That is not even considering the fact that the company review's embargo did not allowed the use of footage other than what they sent them and did not provide console copies.

Also, what he said is that he had almost no bugs. Not that it runs surprisingly well with the multiple bugs. The first reply is a bug that does not allow the user to progress any further. You literally gave the example of a person that defines "surprisingly well" the way I do.

This is the biggest shitstorm since Fallout 76, to claim that this game runs surprisingly well with a straight face is a lie. And when you look at the full picture, it is even worse.

At this point you are either playing devil's advocate or you actually believe what you say. Honestly, this game is a hot mess.

You need to really start reading with comprehension. My sentences are exact. This sentence alone would not hold in court. Not even close because it's not verifiable.
End of story, you are wrong.

[Cringefest]

How would you? You need to have a quantifiable measure of 'flat' and 'dumb' for this to be the basis of anything objective.

We would also need a predefined level of interactivity to contrast what is present in CP2077 and have a statement or claim which directly or implies a level of interactivity exactly. Because CDPR could just as easily say, “Opening a door, talking to an NPC, driving a vehicle, etc is interactive and there is ample precedent for such level of interactivity in line with our product.” Blah, blah.

If it were a civil case, they would likely win with just that- it's easy. See; Drake Cakes vs. Hostess I alluded to earlier.

This still has nothing to do with the notion you asserted earlier there is an objective standard that governs in some respect another's enjoyment. That is totally wrong.

People can & do like “bad” movies and games and find enjoyment in them. It is not a matter of fact these are bad entertainment pieces. However, it is a matter of fact some people claim to enjoy these so-called and sometimes widely considered “bad” products.



Everything here and the section I am cutting for brevity is false both as an objective standard and method for determination in video games in particular.

Where are the definitions and a measure for “immersion”, “RPG elements”, etc? Moreover, not every player, reviewer, or journalist would agree on the same set of criteria or to the same degree- which again, we would need to control as some sort of measure to have an objective standard. This is impossible and unreasonable.

What you ought to say is CP2077 does not meet what is widely or largely considered among X/Y/Z to be above the standard of A/B/C. That would be accurate and measurable both formally and informally.

Asserting “immersion” is a fact to be charted on a graph for player engagement? Nah, man. That is as I said before, “stupid”- which I don’t mean in a manner directly offensive to the person but to the notion because it lacks intellect and sensibility.



I am not making an argument CP2077 is a “good” game. Only there being an objective measure of components in what others enjoy is absolutely false. You or I thinking CP2077 is a “bad” game is simply our opinion. Your opinion (or mine) does not in any way dictate the enjoyment someone else may be getting out of the game.

That is not true with regards to cooking, btw. Some cuisines use intentionally spoiled or rotten products as part of the process or as a practical means. These are not explicitly fermented or aged products either. Chilean, Italian, Indian and some African, and Inuit also incorporate spoiled foods and make dishes intentionally with spoiled or otherwise 'off' items.

Such as spoiled seal ribs or Italian cheese intentionally left to rot and develop living fly larvae, maggots, and consumed with the larvae actively eating the cheese. It is not objectively “faulty” if I can choose to make lasagna with this casu marzu. Your expectation or conception of lasagna may be different, but I did make a lasagna.

A chef doesn’t necessarily have to present a dish as you expect- I once had ‘celery’ where the chef created a foam of the essence of celery and one breathed in the foam while looking at a picture of a celery stalk. Without presenting to you the exact ingredients, I can present whatever I want on the plate or table.

The world is wide, brother.


Impossible and is never done. Ever.

There is no objective measure of what makes a genre in particular in any medium.

Even in music theory, perhaps the most exhaustive of disciplines that study genre, there are not object means by which the whole field agrees a genre strictly operates. This is what my husband studied (he is a drummer) and boy howdy do musicologist have varying opinions on what ‘genre’ is and isn’t. Believe me, I have been “informed" of Tales of Topographic Oceans and “Honor Thy Father” thoroughly and against my will, largely.

There are elements widely agreed upon to constitute a genre. I personally am quite insistent on this as film is a passion of mine and I think without definition application of genre is useless. If you were styling your commentary in this manner, I would agree with your overall point.

Though one will find no scholarly or professional assertion there is an objective measure of genre in entertainment in the modern context. These are “rules” that exist in one’s own mind, to be frank.



Need to define and measure “revolution”. It’s just a slogan otherwise no matter how profoundly a CDPR director stated it on Youtube or filmed themselves atop a mountain screaming a change was coming.

That is quite a different thing from causing harm to a consumer directly or indirectly or with intent or not, by the way. Quite different and I doubt a court would disagree with me on this too. Highly.

Also, yes. A ballad can have a trash metal drum beat. That is not even very progressive either- Flatsom & Jetsam, Devin Townsend, Death Angel, and others have already done this to great effect. PIL, Flowers of Romance? Suicide, Suicide? This Heat, This Heat? I once heard Mark Stewart purely scream bloody murder into a mic in a beautiful song and expression of romance.

Again, the world is wide. Fascism is stupid.

First of all, I'm not claiming you can't enjoy this game. I said that a few times now. I'm saying it's objectively failing at what it's trying to be.

We do have predefined levels of interactivity in this case. Previous games of a similar genre. Let's compare GTA with Cyberpunk 2077, I'm sure you'd agree that is the closest comparison? Say GTA IV, 2008.

https://youtu.be/UTvTj3mwW5A

There's loads of those. I picked one at random. As we can see here, the quality of interactivity as in, how bodies interact with each other, the world, the objects around them and the player is vastly superior on a game released 12 years ago.
This obviously clashes with the number of statements about "revolutionising the way we see open world gaming".
Now that a comparison is made, we can claim that CDPR created a world that is factually less interactive than other games of its genre. Would that not classify as inferior in terms of interactivity and quality of environment details when compared to titles of a similar genre?
Now, considering the 12 years gap between the two titles, could we then not state that the game has "low, poor quality" (aka bad as per dictionary) detailing and world building?

Does that mean you can't enjoy it? Of course not. It only means that it fails to achieve what it tries to achieve.

Yes that cheese is left to rot and is infested by maggots. That's how that dish is presented. If you show up with a different cheese however, you can't claim that is "casu marzu" (literally rotten cheese). That is the point that I was making.
Yes you can create an open world game but you will be subjected to the standards that define that genre. Standards that are given to us by previous titles. Failing to stick to those will result in a "low quality, poor" (bad) product. Whether that's a video game or a dish, that's simply how it is.

What are the chances, I'm also a professional drummer and music educator, it's what I do for a living, and one of the defining classes for beginner students is the study of styles.
"funky" focuses on ghost notes and syncopation. "X metal" prefers double kick patterns and speed. These are actual lessons that happen in any music school. They're vital so that the student is able to recognise the characteristics that define a particular genre. You can't come up blasting 32s on a double kick while playing James Brown. You can, but people WILL call you a bad funky drummer and they'd be right. This is why I'm perfectly entitled to call CDPR's latest product bad. You even agree on what defines a genre. "Widely agreed elements". Why would you not apply that very definition of yours to this specific game? Once again, keep in mind I'm not saying you can't enjoy it.

Regarding that last bit of your post, yes the boundaries that define genres, luckily, can be broken. That still doesn't make double bass patterns on funky drumming appropriate. And that statement isn't fascist, believe it or not

[prwraith]

Then again maybe I shouldn't be surprised. The game was in Alpha May 2019, and everyone within the company was shocked when CDPR lied to the public saying it was done in January and just needed polishing

Honestly it's a shame they were as deceptive as they were. As it is, I do enjoy the game but I was really hoping it'd be a cyberpunk rpg and not a cyberpunk action game.

[Sluvs]

You need to really start reading with comprehension. My sentences are exact. This sentence alone would not hold in court. Not even close because it's not verifiable.
End of story, you are wrong.

Yeah, sure thing buddy.

A game that is buggy as hell, that crashes constantly and that the developer itself apologized for, is considered to run surprisingly well. Sure.

"End of story". This interaction is pointless.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah, sure thing buddy.

A game that is buggy as hell, that crashes constantly and that the developer itself apologized for, is considered to run surprisingly well. Sure.

"End of story". This interaction is pointless.

You realize it runs terribly on consoles and doesn't have the massive issues on PC.

[Captain Proton]

First of all, I'm not claiming you can't enjoy this game. I said that a few times now. I'm saying it's objectively failing at what it's trying to be.

We do have predefined levels of interactivity in this case. Previous games of a similar genre. Let's compare GTA with Cyberpunk 2077, I'm sure you'd agree that is the closest comparison? Say GTA IV, 2008.

https://youtu.be/UTvTj3mwW5A

There's loads of those. I picked one at random. As we can see here, the quality of interactivity as in, how bodies interact with each other, the world, the objects around them and the player is vastly superior on a game released 12 years ago.
This obviously clashes with the number of statements about "revolutionising the way we see open world gaming".
Now that a comparison is made, we can claim that CDPR created a world that is factually less interactive than other games of its genre. Would that not classify as inferior in terms of interactivity and quality of environment details when compared to titles of a similar genre?
Now, considering the 12 years gap between the two titles, could we then not state that the game has "low, poor quality" (aka bad as per dictionary) detailing and world building?

Does that mean you can't enjoy it? Of course not. It only means that it fails to achieve what it tries to achieve.

I find it hilarious you keep saying GTA is the standard for open worlds when its not. Rockstar is so above and beyond that standard. No one makes open world games like Rockstar. You couldn't be more dishonest in your comparison.

[nuffisenough]

I find it hilarious you keep saying GTA is the standard for open worlds when its not. Rockstar is so above and beyond that standard. No one makes open world games like Rockstar. You couldn't be more dishonest in your comparison.

Ummm, Rockstar makes the GTA games.....

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You realize it runs terribly on consoles and doesn't have the massive issues on PC.

Didn’t CDRed admit that the game was made first and foremost for PC, with consoles being an afterthought and having very little time spent on their optimization?

[Cringefest]

I find it hilarious you keep saying GTA is the standard for open worlds when its not. Rockstar is so above and beyond that standard. No one makes open world games like Rockstar. You couldn't be more dishonest in your comparison.

Why would you set the standards on "mediocre"?

[Captain Proton]

Ummm, Rockstar makes the GTA games.....

Lol what? Where did I say they didn't?

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Why would you set the standards on "mediocre"?

Because standard has a meaning and the company who by far and away makes the best open world games isnt the standard? It something to aspire to but certainly isn't the industry standard rofl

[Martymark]

Didn’t CDRed admit that the game was made first and foremost for PC, with consoles being an afterthought and having very little time spent on their optimization?

Supposedly it runs fine in the new Xbox and PS Pro, it's only the 8 year old consoles that run it like garbage.

In they end, maybe they shouldn't have released it for the PS4 (or the PS3, PS2, and PS1).

[Cringefest]

Lol what? Where did I say they didn't?

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Because standard has a meaning and the company who by far and away makes the best open world games isnt the standard? It something to aspire to but certainly isn't the industry standard rofl

Yeah well, that's how it is unfortunately. I compared a 2020 title, in production for 8 years. To a 2008 title. If you don't think that's fair I'm sorry, but that's on you.

[omeomorfismo]

Why would you set the standards on "mediocre"?

because its the definition of standard?

[Sluvs]

You realize it runs terribly on consoles and doesn't have the massive issues on PC.

Yeah, but that was my point.

It runs terribly on last gen consoles.

It just got tiring discussing with someone else

[Cringefest]

because its the definition of standard?

A game that claims to "redefine how we see open world" isn't setting the bar to mediocre.



12 years in between those two games.