Russian Opposition Leader Alexei Navalny Poisoned

[Shalcker]

That’s funny... Why did Russian perestroika fail, where China’s economic revitalization succeeded?

Because US seen China as good wedge against USSR; point that was not applicable to USSR itself when it fell.

Was this the US fault or the difference between accelerationist and encromentalist?

*shrug* They got lured by Polish model of transition (pour in investments and all), and they never got it.

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Russia is the victim because West is more powerful? What kind of logic is that? Funny too because West, contrary to some beliefs, dislike conflict and have zero reason to be antagonistic towards Russia. All they want is to trade as that brings wealth and prosperity. Russia, you see, has "zone of interests" - usually their neighbhours . And then they get angry when people dislike being in said "zone of interest". This fucked up imperialistic mentality is the problem, not the supposed Western agression.

Imperialistic mentality comes, in part, from Western aggression. And in another part out of desire for controlling everything (be it through Czar, GosPlan, or authoritarian means) that is fueled by seeing disastrous results out of lack of that control all around the world... disastrous results that often have quite transparent Western ties cloaked by "supporting freedom".

You managed to have NATO start rearming and increase defence budgets after decades of cuts and unit disbandments, right after Crimea was taken (though warning signs first came with Georgia) plus actually start putting some troops in Poland and Baltic states. Who is reacting to whom?

It's dance for two.

But when "missile defense" plans happened, and even when Baltics joined NATO, i don't see anything that could be considered as provoking it by Russia.

Those rules are used each time EU wide decisions are voted for. Did you miss Covid relief budget, where Poland and Hungary voted no?

When did your country last used it?

[Machismo]

So, Vladimir Putin is murdering all those people, because he's a poor oppressed soul?

That's a new one

[Shalcker]

So, Vladimir Putin is murdering all those people, because he's a poor oppressed soul?

Clearly they justify it to themselves by considering alternatives to be worse - you know, the usual "chaos, anarchy, economic ruin, subservience to Western credits, never return to 90's".

It seems they repeated it so much that they started to believe their own propaganda.

[Easo]

Imperialistic mentality comes, in part, from Western aggression. And in another part out of desire for controlling everything (be it through Czar, GosPlan, or authoritarian means) that is fueled by seeing disastrous results out of lack of that control all around the world... disastrous results that often have quite transparent Western ties cloaked by "supporting freedom".

It's dance for two.

But when "missile defense" plans happened, and even when Baltics joined NATO, i don't see anything that could be considered as provoking it by Russia.

When did your country last used it?

Disastrous results happen because of wannabe power grabbing Tsar's, you mean? But yeah, I see someone being fan of hardliners in charge. Those mostly end up disastrously by default, it is their nature. We will see this happen when Pu dies. He could not make a successor in two fucking decades, he wont make a new one now. And then I will see you whining about it all being West's fault.

It is a dance of two after the actions started by Russia. Keep denying it all you want, NATO would still be cutting budgets without Crimea happening. Funny how cutting budget does not go well together with the supposed threat of Western agression, but what do I know xD

See - here you go again with the imperialist view - you have no say in where or what Baltics join, it is that sad and backwards mentality again. You DO NOT have a say about your neighbhours or right to make them follow your will. None. Get that in your head once and for all. And you gotta be truly foolish to think West wants to invade Russia, it is a fantasy conjured up to excuse, as I already said. Russia's nukes have not disappeared, any talks about any kind of invasion are retarded by default.

So Poland is not good enough for you? And why should my country say no? Because you can't comprehend that everyone actually can agree?
But IIRC few years ago, something about agriculture, Baltics and someone else said no to something. I don't follow every single decision, so sorry not sorry.

Clearly they justify it to themselves by considering alternatives to be worse - you know, the usual "chaos, anarchy, economic ruin, subservience to Western credits, never return to 90's".

It seems they repeated it so much that they started to believe their own propaganda.

As I said before - mentality. You are your own problem, not the evuulll Westtttt.

[Shalcker]

It is a dance of two after the actions started by Russia. Keep denying it all you want, NATO would still be cutting budgets without Crimea happening. Funny how cutting budget does not go well together with the supposed threat of Western agression, but what do I know xD

What exactly was "started by Russia" in 2004 to warrant Baltics joining NATO?

See - here you go again with the imperialist view - you have no say in where or what Baltics join, it is that sad and backwards mentality again. You DO NOT have a say about your neighbhours or right to make them follow your will. None. Get that in your head once and for all.

Again, do you also extend this line of thinking to EU-Belorussia relationship?

And you gotta be truly foolish to think West wants to invade Russia, it is a fantasy conjured up to excuse, as I already said. Russia's nukes have not disappeared, any talks about any kind of invasion are retarded by default.

Just as much fantasy and excuse as Baltics fearing Russian invasion.

[Xarkan]

What exactly was "started by Russia" in 2004 to warrant Baltics joining NATO?

They applied for NATO in 2002 i think so events in 2004 would be irrelevant.

[Specialka]

What exactly was "started by Russia" in 2004 to warrant Baltics joining NATO?

Again, do you also extend this line of thinking to EU-Belorussia relationship?

Just as much fantasy and excuse as Baltics fearing Russian invasion.

Well, I guess Ukraine did not fear a Russia invasion enough, and looks where that led them.

And Russia is in the process of getting Armenia back after their military defeat.

[Shalcker]

They applied for NATO in 2002 i think so events in 2004 would be irrelevant.

They applied for NATO in 1990s.

[Xarkan]

They applied for NATO in 1990s.

Ah right.. 2002 was invitation

[Easo]

They have again detained Lyubov Sobol about "threatening Kudryavtsev", whom the Navalny contacted before via that phone call.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55445780

I love how it basically proves that the person in question indeed is working in FSB and that Bellingcat was right

What exactly was "started by Russia" in 2004 to warrant Baltics joining NATO?

Again, do you also extend this line of thinking to EU-Belorussia relationship?

Just as much fantasy and excuse as Baltics fearing Russian invasion.

Oh let me guess - Russian troops finally fucked off in the second half of 1994 only, Skrunda radar installation was under their control 4 more years, whole Chechnya x2 and, of course, the comments coming from our dear big eastern neighbhour/it's politicians. Do not try to be obtuse and ask what kind of comments, should be obvious.

Why should I? EU would not care if Lukash won in fair elections and then afterwards would not beat and kill his people. You are again (as usual) trying to stir everything together in one pot. Fake elections and violence afterwards towards protesters is not "internal policy".

Ukraine proves that Russian invasion was absolutely possible. What, you think that while little green men appeared in much more powerful state than Baltics taken together they would not appear in Narva and Latgale the moment we decided to leave the Russian sphere of influence? Really? Literally the same pretext about protecting Russians, it could not have been more simple.
We really joined NATO just in time before Russia started to flex the muscles again. I am sure you will call it russophobia or something like that.

[Theodarzna]

Given overall Western power, obviously Russia is more often victim then aggressor. Plus a lot of Kremlin politics is reactive to EU/US actions (including Crimea), though absolutely not everything can be "excused" that way.

As for "West bad", it's good in some areas and bad in others; world isn't black and white.

I always try to imagine, how would the US react to a fairly hostile country turning its immediate neighbor into a place to mark weapons systems and military bases?

Oh, Wait, we have Cuba as an excellent example.

[Machismo]

I always try to imagine, how would the US react to a fairly hostile country turning its immediate neighbor into a place to mark weapons systems and military bases?

Oh, Wait, we have Cuba as an excellent example.

You are going to great lengths to try and defend murder and authoritarianism.

[Theodarzna]

As I said before - mentality. You are your own problem, not the evuulll Westtttt.

What was done to Russia in the 90s by the West was an atrocious act of violation. Rigging their elections and looting the country. I can easily see why they are very bitter towards the West.

[Shalcker]

Oh let me guess - Russian troops finally fucked off in the second half of 1994 only, Skrunda radar installation was under their control 4 more years, whole Chechnya x2 and, of course, the comments coming from our dear big eastern neighbhour/it's politicians. Do not try to be obtuse and ask what kind of comments, should be obvious.

Which of those reasons was still there in 2002? 2004?

Why should I?

Because double standards are generally seen as bad thing. It is well established that you enjoy them, however.

EU would not care if Lukash won in fair elections and then afterwards would not beat and kill his people.

Then you could say Russia would not care for you if you would not keep constantly antagonizing and vilifying it too. In fact we don't remember you at all except for those moments.

Without it US/NATO would likely not care much for you either - as seen by Finland, also bordering oh-so-frightening Russia without ever bothering to join NATO.

Your current role is warm bodies for US foreign adventures and, at best, acting as tripwire for any purely theoretical Russian aggression.

Fake elections and violence afterwards towards protesters is not "internal policy".

Are you saying that EU should weight in on US elections too - given that one party is calling them fake and there is definite uptick of violence?

Ukraine proves that Russian invasion was absolutely possible. What, you think that while little green men appeared in much more powerful state than Baltics taken together they would not appear in Narva and Latgale the moment we decided to leave the Russian sphere of influence? Really? Literally the same pretext about protecting Russians, it could not have been more simple.

But you already left "Russian sphere of influence" long ago (as much as you could) and they didn't appear.

And inventing pretexts is extremely easy - all you need is willingness to do so.

[Yadryonych]

@Shalcker I genuinely wonder why do you keep reviving this thread, there's no point at all

[Easo]

Which of those reasons was still there in 2002? 2004?

Because double standards are generally seen as bad thing. It is well established that you enjoy them, however.

Then you could say Russia would not care for you if you would not keep constantly antagonizing and vilifying it too. In fact we don't remember you at all except for those moments.

Without it US/NATO would likely not care much for you either - as seen by Finland, also bordering oh-so-frightening Russia without ever bothering to join NATO.

Your current role is warm bodies for US foreign adventures and, at best, acting as tripwire for any purely theoretical Russian aggression.

Are you saying that EU should weight in on US elections too - given that one party is calling them fake and there is definite uptick of violence?

But you already left "Russian sphere of influence" long ago (as much as you could) and they didn't appear.

And inventing pretexts is extremely easy - all you need is willingness to do so.

Most of them? What, 2 years from second Checnya war is a distant past to you now? Silly Shalcker.

Double standards because EU does not like little shits beating on their people? That is double standard now? What?

We don't have to vilify Russia, it does it for itself each time someone threatens us with the Pskov paratrooper division or starts again messing with the Russians living here. It is also harder to mess with Finland, there are no local Russians here and it is likely to receive help from outside plus it can fight.
Warm bodies? Have you ever seen casualty reports from Iraq and Afghanistan? If European NATO members are cannon fodder for US then we are doing incredibly bad job for it.

USA elections are done and were fair. You mean one person, mostly, which stand to loose everything and is bound to face prison time? The Republicans have accepted the Biden's win. Whole world has congratulated Biden. Moving those goalposts I see.

They did not appear because we joined NATO quite a bit before Russia decided that it is time to kick the neighbours again. I already said that. Are you even trying? Oh yes, pretexts are easy. Except when it comes to invading a NATO member. No, really, are you even trying at all?

What was done to Russia in the 90s by the West was an atrocious act of violation. Rigging their elections and looting the country. I can easily see why they are very bitter towards the West.

*eyeroll*

@Shalcker I genuinely wonder why do you keep reviving this thread, there's no point at all

He is not, he just defends the motherland, something you should be quite familiar with. Last news were actually posted by me couple of days ago.

[Shalcker]

Most of them? What, 2 years from second Checnya war is a distant past to you now? Silly Shalcker.

It's quite inconsistent position.

If you think Russia during Chechen Wars were already dangerous enough to fear "little green men", then how exactly do you explain them not appearing in your country back then? What inhibition evaporated in 2000s to make you more fearful, given that military was there (and active) all along?

Double standards because EU does not like little shits beating on their people? That is double standard now? What?

See Yellow Vests. Haven't seen any EU dislikes there.

We don't have to vilify Russia, it does it for itself each time someone threatens us with the Pskov paratrooper division or starts again messing with the Russians living here. It is also harder to mess with Finland, there are no local Russians here and it is likely to receive help from outside plus it can fight.

Ah, so you primarily fear people of your own country getting outside help out of xenophobia? Well, that makes a lot more sense given your disdain for ethnic minorities.

Your culture and country is simply not significant enough to forcefully assimilate bigger ethos; and refusing to give them their space out of naked nationalism is foolish.

[Easo]

It's quite inconsistent position.

If you think Russia during Chechen Wars were already dangerous enough to fear "little green men", then how exactly do you explain them not appearing in your country back then? What inhibition evaporated in 2000s to make you more fearful, given that military was there (and active) all along?

See Yellow Vests. Haven't seen any EU dislikes there.

Ah, so you primarily fear people of your own country getting outside help out of xenophobia? Well, that makes a lot more sense given your disdain for ethnic minorities.

Your culture and country is simply not significant enough to forcefully assimilate bigger ethos; and refusing to give them their space out of naked nationalism is foolish.

You seriously asked me to explain why Russia did not send little green men about 20 years ago? This is open trolling at best. Russia back then was just standing back up after the 90ties and focused on internal issues and, let's use that word, relatively weak.

Ah, more Shalcker disingenuity. Do tell me how violent protests (and most deaths have nothing to do with police) against economic policy are comparable to the peaceful ones about the political future of the country. Let's also not pretend that police violence was approved by other countries because it was not. Unless you enjoy reading RT, which I think you do.

No one fears local Russians (and they don't want much to do with motherland, no matter what some populists scream, that choice was made long time ago). We fear using them as an excuse - just like what happened in Ukraine.
I wonder why you are not saying anything about the millions of Russians in Germany, USA or Kazakhstan (especially the later one). Because those countries are much bigger and thus harder to threaten, hmm?

[Shalcker]

You seriously asked me to explain why Russia did not send little green men about 20 years ago? This is open trolling at best. Russia back then was just standing back up after the 90ties and focused on internal issues and, let's use that word, relatively weak.

Russia back then hoped to join NATO too. As did Putin - until about 2007-2008 when it became clear it'll never happen.

Ah, more Shalcker disingenuity. Do tell me how violent protests (and most deaths have nothing to do with police) against economic policy are comparable to the peaceful ones about the political future of the country. Let's also not pretend that police violence was approved by other countries because it was not. Unless you enjoy reading RT, which I think you do.

Could you point me out to official condemnations similar to Belarus reactions? Because Google fails to provide any for me.

No one fears local Russians (and they don't want much to do with motherland, no matter what some populists scream, that choice was made long time ago). We fear using them as an excuse - just like what happened in Ukraine.

The best excuse is "continued NATO encroaching that can no longer be tolerated". Doesn't need any Russians, 100% true.

I wonder why you are not saying anything about the millions of Russians in Germany, USA or Kazakhstan (especially the later one). Because those countries are much bigger and thus harder to threaten, hmm?

Because they don't mistreat Russians now (everyone left Khazakhstan when nationalism flared there on USSR dissolution), and you still do.

[Theodarzna]

Russia back then hoped to join NATO too. As did Putin - until about 2007-2008 when it became clear it'll never happen.

The only way for Russia to join NATO is via national suicide, as you can't join an organization whose purpose is to scratch you from the face of the Earth without dying.