Nathria isn't hard, your loot just hasn't caught up yet. Morgan Day interview

[Throwme]

To discuss it's contents?

There is nothing to discuss in the OP.

You live under power lines by chance?

No, I am not in a third world country that allows that

[Osmeric]

We're coming up on the 10th anniversary of Ghostcrawler's "Wow, Dungeons Are Hard!" blog post. It's good to see that some people never learn.

[Gref]

2 weeks of raiding. 7 bosses down each week. (We are lacking time to play)
0 fucking items. 0. thank the fuck I did one m+7 last week and got a 213 lvl weapon. Lucky as hell.

I cannot catch up ilvls like this. lmao.

[Gasparde]

2 weeks of raiding. 7 bosses down each week. (We are lacking time to play)
0 fucking items. 0. thank the fuck I did one m+7 last week and got a 213 lvl weapon. Lucky as hell.

I cannot catch up ilvls like this. lmao.

13 m+ today, 7 hours, 3 items, only 1 useable, overall 0.19 ilvl upgrade.
Last night, 10 heroic + 3 mythic bosses, 1 item, worst stats bracers.

Looking forward to my char being done after 10 more weeks of the weekly chest. Thank god this is the alt-friendly expansion, because it sure is so much easier and less time-consuming to keep up with alts this time around.

But then again, who wants rewards anyways, right? Playing the game should be the reward itself after all. Next expansion we'll prolly see the removal of item drops and we'll all just get sent 1 item per week from the postmaster - that way we'll finally kill guilds like Limit and Echo doing crazy gearing strats and we'll make the game the overall bestest and funnestest it can possibly be.

[Onikaroshi]

I used to raid during Cata - BWD/BOT/Al Akir were similar to how it is now. Normal wasn't exactly easy mode. We went 7/10 today after last week going 3/10. Gear made a HUGE difference. Especially on dealing with adds.

Tbf, normal as it is now didn't exist then, normal then is heroic now

[potis]

13 m+ today, 7 hours, 3 items, only 1 useable, overall 0.19 ilvl upgrade.
Last night, 10 heroic + 3 mythic bosses, 1 item, worst stats bracers.

Looking forward to my char being done after 10 more weeks of the weekly chest. Thank god this is the alt-friendly expansion, because it sure is so much easier and less time-consuming to keep up with alts this time around.

But then again, who wants rewards anyways, right? Playing the game should be the reward itself after all. Next expansion we'll prolly see the removal of item drops and we'll all just get sent 1 item per week from the postmaster - that way we'll finally kill guilds like Limit and Echo doing crazy gearing strats and we'll make the game the overall bestest and funnestest it can possibly be.

Rewards were out of control and thats a fact, at least for a minority that could do it.

I mean, look at Legion and BFA, apart from the first 2 weeks that things were locked, same with SL.

And every patch after that, it was always the same, use max M+ ilvl to outgear most of things in less than 2 weeks, get some luck with the weekly chest also and voila, done.

I find it annoying, yet refreshing that i am not 220 ilvl already as example.

[Gasparde]

Rewards were out of control and thats a fact

That's very much not a fact. Because what you consider as out of control and annoying I considered as very much enjoyable and perfectly paced.

I liked being done with gearing a character in 1-2 weeks. I liked just grinding my brains out for a week and then being able to compete at the highest level on a level playing field. I don't find it enjoyable to get an overall 1 ilvl upgrade per week + the shit I get from my weekly vault because that means shit is entirely out of my hand and I basically have to wait 10 weeks until my character is done - and at that point it's not gonna be done because I'm such a skilled player but rather because I've been gifted enough of the absolute best gear in the game for basically free long enough.

The game is no longer rewarding, as doing the most challenging content in the game no longer... gives you any fucking relevant rewards at a relevant pace. Instead doing just one 12 or 14 per week is all you need to do to hit that glorious 226 ilvl just about when everyone else is gonna hit it.... simply by doing the absolute bare minimum - we have successfully removed the player from the loot equation and made it almost entirely static with a couple added dice rolls here and there. Great and rewarding, exciting and refreshing, peak positive reinforcement, please give 2-hour GDC talk on how you came up with such a brilliant game system design.

[hayzlol]

Tbf, normal as it is now didn't exist then, normal then is heroic now

Yeah, not a huge number of guilds cleared that tier pre-nerf on my server. I remember some fights being pretty unforgiving. Similar in a way too a number of the fights now. It's definitely tougher than a number of fights back then though.

[Onikaroshi]

Yeah, not a huge number of guilds cleared that tier pre-nerf on my server. I remember some fights being pretty unforgiving. Similar in a way too a number of the fights now. It's definitely tougher than a number of fights back then though.

Unfortunately i was without internet for that tier so i didn't get to experience, and aside from raggy, FL wasn't that bad, so i think it was an easier tier

[Lumineus]

I used to raid during Cata - BWD/BOT/Al Akir were similar to how it is now. Normal wasn't exactly easy mode.

That's the problem. Normal is supposed to be easy mode. Back in Cata there was no Normal. There was standard mode (today's Heroic) and hard mode (today's Mythic). Normal (née Flex Raid) was specifically put in during MoP to replace the old 10-man difficulty that was deleted with Cataclysm. Now they're rolling it back and making Heroic/Mythic even more difficult.

[TrollHunter3000]

Ur wrong Nathria is significantly more difficult than any other raid so far.

Definitely not. Last boss died in under 200 pulls. There's been bosses that took twice as many.

- - - Updated - - -

First week AotC haven't been this low since... Archimonde, probably. Are *you* new to this game?

Raid also came out right around the holidays. A lot of guilds don't raid for a few weeks in December.

[Relapses]

Unfortunately i was without internet for that tier so i didn't get to experience, and aside from raggy, FL wasn't that bad, so i think it was an easier tier

FL was only 7 bosses. On Normal it was pretty straightforward but the difficulty curve of Heroic was pretty chaotic. I still think Alysrazor is one of Blizzard's best encounters of all time though.

[antelope591]

He's 100% right. Its hard right now because outside of Echo/Limit the rest of the guilds don't have the means to obtain the gear level the raid is tuned for. But compare this raid to something like Tomb of Sargeras and the difference is night and day. We went into TOS with a much higher gear base and Mistress, Avatar and KJ were all 300+ pull bosses even taking that into account. I wouldn't put Castle Nathria amongst the hardest raids although it was tuned like that for week one, but week one only.

[Doffen]

Rewards were out of control and thats a fact, at least for a minority that could do it.

I mean, look at Legion and BFA, apart from the first 2 weeks that things were locked, same with SL.

And every patch after that, it was always the same, use max M+ ilvl to outgear most of things in less than 2 weeks, get some luck with the weekly chest also and voila, done.

I find it annoying, yet refreshing that i am not 220 ilvl already as example.

Its perfect like it is now, back to older ways. Why I like Shadowlands, it is modern WoW with a twist of the old. It was way too easy to gear up in Legion and BfA and I am glad they went with this.

[Finear]

Its perfect like it is now, back to older ways. Why I like Shadowlands, it is modern WoW with a twist of the old. It was way too easy to gear up in Legion and BfA and I am glad they went with this.

i get nerfing loot drops compared to legion or bfa

but getting literally a single drop from 3 weeks of raiding is equally bad

at this point i dont feel good about getting any item anymore because it just means its 2-3 weeks till the next one, its frustrating and definitely not fun experience

[Subrias]

Nathria was definitely tuned higher (not necessarily overtuned) than any previous normal raid at launch. In cata we took people with greens into bastion and blacking decent and still cleared normal the first week. In pandaland we needed a little better gear but still wasn't super hard. Not until this expansion have we hit a wall (and when I say we its literally the same 12 people and like 3 new ones). On a boss who isn't the end boss. And yes I'm speaking of normal and heroic not mythic. Disregarding mythic, the hardest boss in there seems to be council of blood. It's a tight dps check so if someone isn't geared or isn't pulling good numbers you die.

[fathom81]

Sadly the vast majority can only beat content when they are overgeared. Panda/wod challenges, all brawls, mage tower, visions, torghast, and m+/raid

[Doffen]

i get nerfing loot drops compared to legion or bfa

but getting literally a single drop from 3 weeks of raiding is equally bad

at this point i dont feel good about getting any item anymore because it just means its 2-3 weeks till the next one, its frustrating and definitely not fun experience

Maybe they could have increased the drop from each boss like 20%, 1 more item for 20 players if I was to come with improvements, but I don't think it's so bad. I had some very bad luck back in the day myself, missed out on two good trinkets for the whole tier in both WotLK and TBC when looting was more like it is now, and I think that's good for the game. I don't think personally that there has to be so much gear, I mean we do have m+ now so it is closing the few gaps we might have.

When it comes to m+ and raids I think it's nicely balanced now. For those who do normal/heroic raiding this is a good thing, that you can't just spam mythic+ so the gear in the raids becomes irrelevant. I don't want that. In BfA when we didn't have tier gear it was at the worst, when a heroic raider came into the raid and could barely see any upgrades in the raid. So I think what we have now is a good solution to something that was an actual issue.

[oplawlz]

i get nerfing loot drops compared to legion or bfa

but getting literally a single drop from 3 weeks of raiding is equally bad

at this point i dont feel good about getting any item anymore because it just means its 2-3 weeks till the next one, its frustrating and definitely not fun experience

That's not the norm though chief, it's RNG kicking you in the nuts.

I like bliz slowing down the overachievers. Not only does it keep the raids relevant longer, it keeps players showing up instead of pugging one week and then screwing over their raid group by quitting because they don't need the gear anymore.

[Osmeric]

Sadly the vast majority can only beat content when they are overgeared. Panda/wod challenges, all brawls, mage tower, visions, torghast, and m+/raid

Sadly, Blizzard tunes content and gear for a small minority of favored players (which likely includes the devs themselves), not for their average customers.

This is the central cardinal sin of Blizzard's development team. If Bobby Kotick wanted to save WoW he'd stop this practice.