Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
LastLast
  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Einsz View Post
    No, you can play in that region as well, its not exclusive.
    Doesn't matter which way you put it, NA is getting a headstart over EU.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Honestly, I'd rather just let you keep posting because it amuses me. Is that okay?

    - - - Updated - - -


    Except that is when the EU wins with a disadvantage. You'd have an argument if the EU had an advantage in those cases.
    Saw your baby tears in the limit award comments. Nice to see them again! I guess EU memory is pretty short when it comes down to remembering getting expansion launches before the us,leading them to start working on gear before we could level,eh?

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    EU has had an advantage in cases over the years.... we have had first to max level many MENY times before the Expansion was even out in the US realms. likewise we have also had raid launches that opened up in other regions outside of the US first...
    The only times a raid could've been released earlier in the EU is when everything was available at launch (TBC, Wrath, Cata), and in those cases it's only the launch raids. A raid that came in a patch or had a gated release(all raids except launch raids in tbc/wrath/cata) have launched in NA first.

  4. #164
    Epic! Whitedragon's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Little Scales Daycare
    Posts
    1,513
    Quote Originally Posted by Dahij View Post
    The only times a raid could've been released earlier in the EU is when everything was available at launch (TBC, Wrath, Cata), and in those cases it's only the launch raids. A raid that came in a patch or had a gated release(all raids except launch raids in tbc/wrath/cata) have launched in NA first.
    But they did exist and at least in wrath I remember people whining that EU had an unfair lead (Also wasn't the first Tir in WoD Launched in Asia first? I vagally recall something like that happening.), same with leveling which up until shadowlands always favored EU/Asia. Every single time the counter was something along the lines of "who ever gets it gets it" so I'm happy to spin that right round and say who ever gets it gets it....

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    And they happen during the morning/early afternoon for NA folks - your point being? What do you think is more likely for a gaming-related audience, people waking up early or people staying up late? And that's just for the people who are, in fact, in exactly the same time zone as the streamers - not for people all over the world who are watching at very different times, and for whom this is not nearly as much of a problem.
    There would be significant fan outcry if the event had to be hosted at ridiculous hours for their region. And like I said, this "global start" doesn't actually fix any of the issues with the race. It's not the magical panacea you see people on these forums suggesting it is. Given that it's more likely that a global start would favor NA by virtue of Blizzard being an American company EU would be the region that'd have to change sleep schedules. And if EU still lost in a "fair race" where they had to work around different sleep schedules you'd see the goal post immediately move from "NA gets a headstart" to "NA gets a favorable sleep schedule." And at that point, you realize that even though the current system is flawed the alternatives aren't much better so there's little reason to change it. (And that's why it hasn't changed.)

  6. #166
    I have been following world first races for many years and:
    1) no, EU guilds did not just now start to bring up the time difference, they just did not matter as much as there was absolutely no competition for years.
    2) Yes, there are no life troll commenters on both sides, though I tend to find that the US ones were in a majority of 65% US-35% EU. It did not matter that Method won for 10 years hundreds of troll comments about how they sucked and Limit is awesome and in return a lot of braindead comments back from Method fans. It is literally the same as football fans.
    3) The time difference gotta suck for Limit as well as it will always be a gigantic stigma on them that they only win now because 1, Method fell and 2, The time advantage. So yeah if they want to be recognized by the not overly fanatic EU fans as an actual winner, that after 10 years of being the underdogs finally overcome adversity, then yes the time advantage has to go.
    I am a Method fan , and probably always will be, but if it ever comes to it and Limit wins I'm not gonna write a bunch of fucked up comments how US sucks blah blah cause they've earned it finally, the problem is that they won by like what? 16 hours and 20 minutes if i remember correctly which can easily be argued that if Echo did a HC split run like Limit they would have won.
    And this just sucks for Limit, all i want is a race, and actual fair one without all the bullshit of a or b had this or that advantage and say that Echo/Limit won, no questions asked

  7. #167
    echo players are so full of themselves that they think they can beat limit and their 9-16 hours headstart. that is disrespectful. max got it backwards.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Monoxide View Post
    Why didn't anyone complain that things were unfair for Method when they were getting every world first for years? It's only an issue now because a US guild pulled it off.
    They did, many times. Like it isn't "Oh limit won in the last two tiers now it is talked about.". It's been talked about since MOP, maybe even earlier than that. Method, Paragon, Limit, Exorsus, Guilds whose name I have forgotten both in EU and US have talked about it for well over a decade.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    Imagine a nascar race where the favorite gets a 2 lap headstart.

    Some people here think it's fair
    Well with NASCAR anyone who even legit gets more than 2s ahead of anyone is enough for the organisers to bring out a phantom yellow flag to bunch them up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    "They didn't kill it in that time frame despite stopping the moment the other guild killed it to take a break and get some sleep and come back refreshed." Besides, you can argue all you want that it didn't effect this world first race. But my argument is answering the question "Does time difference between servers effect world first races?" Where the answer is it undoubtedly does.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I mean, this is the closest we will get. The question is what time they choose to make it as fair as possible.
    9 am pacific (Everyone in the US is up by then.) which brings to 5pm UK (8pm Russia). Yes that's very early morning Aus/china/japan/Korean time zones but shift working is a thing and the majority of guilds who push for world first are in North America or Europe.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    There would be significant fan outcry if the event had to be hosted at ridiculous hours for their region. And like I said, this "global start" doesn't actually fix any of the issues with the race. It's not the magical panacea you see people on these forums suggesting it is. Given that it's more likely that a global start would favor NA by virtue of Blizzard being an American company EU would be the region that'd have to change sleep schedules. And if EU still lost in a "fair race" where they had to work around different sleep schedules you'd see the goal post immediately move from "NA gets a headstart" to "NA gets a favorable sleep schedule." And at that point, you realize that even though the current system is flawed the alternatives aren't much better so there's little reason to change it. (And that's why it hasn't changed.)
    Of course global release doesn't fix shit. But you would have to have zero imagination if you think there isn't better way. There is, at least 2 solutions that would be infinitely better than we have now.

    First one being called world fastest, while dropping world first.
    Second being a challenger realm for those guilds (to not be reliant on external stuff like buying shittons of boe, paying thousands of dollars for tokens, etc etc. Just pure skill comparison).
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Of course global release doesn't fix shit. But you would have to have zero imagination if you think there isn't better way. There is, at least 2 solutions that would be infinitely better than we have now.
    Each solution has pros and cons. I simply position that the current solution, while less than ideal, is no worse than the potential downsides of any of the alternatives. You can say I "lack imagination" if that floats your boat but the fact is that it's been like this forever and it's unlikely to change any time soon. The only impetus for change now seems to be EU fans upset that the perceived advantage mattered more this race than it has in the past.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinte View Post
    Saw your baby tears in the limit award comments. Nice to see them again! I guess EU memory is pretty short when it comes down to remembering getting expansion launches before the us,leading them to start working on gear before we could level,eh?
    >baby tears
    Meanwhile there's been more sore winner syndrome than anything.

    That aside, can you even call those comparable advantages without choking on your own tears of laughter at even trying to compare the two?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I mean if you’re just making things up you can make anyone sound dumb.

    But none of the Limit players are acting how you claim they are.
    .. I never said that about Limit. I said it about Limit fans or whomever is screaming about "NO HEADSTART IT ISNT TRUE."

  12. #172
    It's probably been covered by someone but there really isn't going to be a way for this to be fair. One of the wf guild's servers might just go down; another might have a better economy that raid cycle. There are just a lot unfair things going on. Likewise the time zone problem is going to rear it's ugly head one way or another even if they raided at the same time.

    Just seems like fixing the problem isn't worth it to blizzard and we'll just have to live with this.

  13. #173
    I think 16 hours is a lot for mythic world first raiders.
    What they do is try to perfect the execution of the encounter.

    They all allready nearly play perfectly. Nothing to really change there. They have to test out composition, a bit of tactics (most of them are allready set beforehnad tbh) and finally execution which only comes with training... soo... time...

    While for me personally... idgaf to be honest... it does not matter when there are weekly resets for raiding, it does matter for the other resets.... having my weekly resets with us times.... nah sorry. World fiorst racers have to bite in the bitter fruit.

    The bugs are not 16 hours of hinderance. not even 6. IF us gets the kill first a timer should start for .. idk 10 to 12 hours where, if a eu guild kills it gets the world first.
    If the us guild says "but they have our tactics" don't stream it then. Simple as that. Their choice. But you cannot make a living as a world first raider so you cannot expect them to move to the us for it. (yes sure gingi porbably does but the pool is a lot bigger and most of them DON't stream)

  14. #174
    So in both Nya'lotha and Castle Nathria, Method/Echo came second to Complexity Limit. Both times Method/Echo killed the boss about 16.5 hours after Limit. Both times they slowed down considerably and started taking more breaks as no one else was competing with them for world second. Another thing to note is that both guilds did it fairly quickly after they recleared Heroic/Mythic CN for gear. So Limit having the lockout early certainly helped since there were no changes/fixes to Sire on the 23rd or later.

    Regardless, Limit was the World First kill in both instances. That is concrete and absolute. These are the rules of the game and Europeans are aware they play against players with a 16 hour handicap. The real question is, should that be changed? I think so. Historically, it didn't matter since the US/Canada/OCE realms were not real contenders in the World First race. They'd usually get one or two of the top 10 slots, but no where near World First. Heck even in Nya'lotha, where the US took World First, only 2 US guilds were in World top 10. Now with US/CA/OCE being competitive in the world first race, I don't think it's really fair nor fun to see the race played with such handicaps. We do global launches now for expansions, I don't see the issue with those launches being applied to weekly resets either.

    Because while we know which guild secured world first, it is much harder to say which is better. Given what I saw, I would lean towards Method/Echo. I watched their streams and I wholeheartedly believe that if they played on the same schedule as Limit, they would have won by a few hours.
    Last edited by God Save The King; 2020-12-26 at 02:04 AM.
    “You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me.”
    – C.S. Lewis

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    So in both Nya'lotha and Castle Nathria, Method/Echo came second to Complexity Limit. Both times Method/Echo killed the boss about 16.5 hours after Limit. Both times they slowed down considerably and started taking more breaks as no one else was competing with them for world second. Another thing to note is that both guilds did it fairly quickly after they recleared Heroic/Mythic CN for gear. So Limit having the lockout early certainly helped since there were no changes/fixes to Sire on the 23rd or later.

    Regardless, Limit was the World First kill in both instances. That is concrete and absolute. These are the rules of the game and Europeans are aware they play against players with a 16 hour handicap. The real question is, should that be changed? I think so. Historically, it didn't matter since the US/Canada/OCE realms were not real contenders in the World First race. They'd usually get one or two of the top 10 slots, but no where near World First. Heck even in Nya'lotha, where the US took World First, only 2 US guilds were in World top 10. Now with US/CA/OCE being competitive in the world first race, I don't think it's really fair nor fun to see the race played with such handicaps. We do global launches now for expansions, I don't see the issue with those launches being applied to weekly resets either.

    Because while we know which guild secured world first, it is much harder to say which is better. Given what I saw, I would lean towards Method/Echo. I watched their streams and I wholeheartedly believe that if they played on the same schedule as Limit, they would have won by a few hours.
    This is a totally reasonable post and I agree with it for the most part.

    Limit got world first in Castle Nathria. People saying they cheated or that Echo got the real world first are not helping and are just being toxic.

    There's nothing wrong with saying that there should be a global release while also acknowledging that Limit won.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    I mean, if the EU win, it's often because they get a boss ahead early on and they encounter the bugs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Imagine getting but hurt that a guild wanted to try and keep their tactics secret when they're trying to beat a 16 hour time advantage...
    I think you might be projecting just a tad, it's fine though.

    The practices of those we cheer on will always influence the respect ESport's Teams garner. just look at how hard Method fell. Imagine tuning in to a football game and only seeing the offensive plays by one team. It's not about hiding tactics... they obviously weren't that great anyways, it's about watching the competition of the #RWF. Something only Ion and his Dev team were able to do. It matters as viewers, content consumers who, as a collective, allow this to even be possible. So when the top guilds, like Echo, advertise an event like the #RWF, then censor the progression... it's of bad faith to what every guild in that event is trying to create.

    I enjoy these events and would like to see them continue, but if guilds start hiding progression and tossing up replays of previous kills, then WTF is the point of the #RWF

    Echo is the opposite of what top guilds should aim to be. But, if it's about EU or NA, then there are many top guilds that are community driven and look to build the WoW Esports community by participating in the #RWF.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugsy View Post
    I think you might be projecting just a tad, it's fine though.

    The practices of those we cheer on will always influence the respect ESport's Teams garner. just look at how hard Method fell. Imagine tuning in to a football game and only seeing the offensive plays by one team. It's not about hiding tactics... they obviously weren't that great anyways, it's about watching the competition of the #RWF. Something only Ion and his Dev team were able to do. It matters as viewers, content consumers who, as a collective, allow this to even be possible. So when the top guilds, like Echo, advertise an event like the #RWF, then censor the progression... it's of bad faith to what every guild in that event is trying to create.

    I enjoy these events and would like to see them continue, but if guilds start hiding progression and tossing up replays of previous kills, then WTF is the point of the #RWF

    Echo is the opposite of what top guilds should aim to be. But, if it's about EU or NA, then there are many top guilds that are community driven and look to build the WoW Esports community by participating in the #RWF.
    It seems to be against the spirit of a fully streamed #RWF, yes. But we have no idea what Echo's obligations to its sponsors are and radio silence on a last boss is hardly new territory for the race. I think they regret the decision in hindsight as Donny Triple D ended up being significantly easier than SLG but that kind of thing is hard to know ahead of time. Given everything on the line for Echo you almost can't blame them for what they did even though it can be viewed as poor sportsmanship. (More than anything, it'd be sponsors who would get pissed.)

    That said, Echo doesn't need much help in the PR department when they have Nnoggie sperging out multiple times on stream, telling the entire community to fuck itself (on Christmas day no less) by putting MDT behind a paywall and then proceeding to post an unsubstantiated accusation of gamer words being used by a Limit raider on Twitter. Gonna be an interesting next few days.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2020-12-26 at 01:05 PM.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Here's the thing that irks me: There are EU fans who are pretending to be paragons of reasonability by demanding a change to the way the race operates are doing so only now after having lost back-to-back RWFs. These are the same EU fans who in every fucking WF thread that existed in the decade or so that EU was handily winning every race would constantly denigrate the entire NA region and whenever the time issue came up they'd smugly proclaim, "lol like it matters we still beat u even with ur training wheels on!" (Don't believe me? Go look up the RWF threads in Legion when the RWF was pretty much exclusively between EU guilds.) EU fans want their cake and to eat it, too. They say they want a "fair race," but they also don't want to acknowledge that they were a bunch of smug dickbags about the very issue they now consider priority numero uno when it was brought up in the past. And that smugness is a big contributor for why nothing ever changed. It reeks of survivor bias.
    You're basically saying that NA should keep the headstart, because some EU players triggered you a few years back(and you still are triggered).

  19. #179
    US has the headstart and they usually lost the race, so it was a moot point.

    Now maybe it matters depending on how close the races are, but there are many other factors that can also explain it, e.g. method/echo had a huge shakeup and they probably haven't fully swung back yet and are currently probably just the weaker guild.

    But if the US keeps winning by small margins going forwards, and with the recent increase in coverage for the world first race, I can see simultaneous global raid releases become a thing in the future. probably depends most on how much money is/stays in the race coverage.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    You're basically saying that NA should keep the headstart, because some EU players triggered you a few years back(and you still are triggered).
    No, I'm saying that if this was the game breaking issue EU fans want to insist it is now then they probably shouldn't pretend they've been "asking for this for ages" when they were not only not asking for it change when they were winning but were instead actively trolling an entire fucking region about it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •