Who went into the Maw, the proper way?

[Varitok]

strongly disagree, Lady Vashj was the bad guy, but all of her actions were always for the sake of her people, so just that one fact is a huge redeeming factor to her character.

She killed millions to save hundreds. True redeeming qualities. Arthas also wanted to subjugate the world under the banner of undeath to defend it from the Burning Legion but why didn't he get a pass? Everyone's morals are right in their own eyes.

[NPI]

All horde player or NPC character should stay in the Maw.

[Verdugo]

Arthas also wanted to subjugate the world under the banner of undeath to defend it from the Burning Legion but why didn't he get a pass?

He propably would have.

[huth]

She killed millions to save hundreds. True redeeming qualities. Arthas also wanted to subjugate the world under the banner of undeath to defend it from the Burning Legion but why didn't he get a pass? Everyone's morals are right in their own eyes.

Millions she had no connection to and little reason to help. And Revendreth isn't just about what you did, but places great emphasis on the why. Vashj acted for the good of her people. Arthas mostly acted out of selfish motivations and pride. I wouldn't even be surprised if he would have gone to Revendreth because of his actions before becoming the Lich King rather than afterwards.

[Thage]

The barometer for Revendreth has been set too high for anyone to qualify directly for the Maw given people who've tried to destroy reality on behalf of demons/old gods, personally disemboweled thousands for science and ate planets don't get a straight ticket there.

This. Basically, I don't think anyone is supposed to go directly to jail, so-to-speak. You get your last chance in Revendreth, which is basically purgatory if purgatory was run by a delusionally-prideful asshole who cultivated a fiefdom for him to play king in. Even the worst of the worst have an opportunity to reform and be sent to a 'proper' afterlife, and I remain convinced that Uther and Devos skipping the process and chucking Arthas straight into the Maw gave the Jailor the idea to begin with, with Argus's death being his moment to act in earnest.

[Sondrelk]

He propably would have.

Arthas was essentially the same as Kael'tgas, did horrible things because he accrued one bad choice after another hoping to save his people.

That being said, Kael'tgas seems far more "evil" than one would assume, guess they had to amp up his bad traits to make players buy him being sent to Revendreth.

[huth]

Arthas was essentially the same as Kael'tgas, did horrible things because he accrued one bad choice after another hoping to save his people.

That being said, Kael'tgas seems far more "evil" than one would assume, guess they had to amp up his bad traits to make players buy him being sent to Revendreth.

Eh, even in BC it was clear he wasn't putting saving his people first. He wanted to be seen as their saviour. When that fell through, he was quick to turn on them. That's Pride and Wrath already, and it's called out in Nathria that Wrath was his worst trait.

[Unholyground]

We know that Ursoc was one of the last (named NPCs) to be judged by the Arbiter, and soon after that, every dead soul went directly to the Maw.
Therefore, let's keep all talk to a time line, no later than Emerald Nightmare raid.

Who went to the Maw? Not an answer like "the truly vile", but actual names? People we know from lore.
All the bosses/rares we fight in the Maw are new names, we have no connection to, lorewise, but there must be some we know?

Both Kael'thas, Kel'thuzad and Lady Vashj avoided going to the Maw; they would have been good candidates for the Maw in my eyes.

Well the soul of Argus is what messed up everything when it went through the arbiter. Most of the big bads that we've had were either undead or demon until now basically and demons just cease to exist when they die in the nether so they don't go anywhere that we know of.

[Darththeo]

I think the beings that go straight to the Maw are the ones shown to me irredeemable. That there was something left to save.

I think Sylvanas wasn't destined for the Maw but rather convinced she was. Meaning someone sent her there (similar to Arthas where they skilled judgment.)

But, what is classified as irredeemable seems odd. There was the argument that the scourge taints the soul ... but that doesn't make sense as you don't choose to be undead.

[matrix123mko]

Come to think of it, shouldn't Kael'thas have been in the Twisting Nether as well? After his initial defeat he was kept alive with fel crystals. That's pretty demonic if you ask me.

I think they put him in Shadowlands mainly because they forgot to resurrect him in Legion.

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The barometer for Revendreth has been set too high for anyone to qualify directly for the Maw given people who've tried to destroy reality on behalf of demons/old gods, personally disemboweled thousands for science and ate planets don't get a straight ticket there.

Conspiration theory: Maw is not a part of divine plan.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Well the soul of Argus is what messed up everything when it went through the arbiter.

This was never confirmed to be what broke the Arbiter.

[huth]

Well the soul of Argus is what messed up everything when it went through the arbiter. Most of the big bads that we've had were either undead or demon until now basically and demons just cease to exist when they die in the nether so they don't go anywhere that we know of.

That's only a guess, and not even a good one. Argus soul was clearly shown as having a very non-red colour scheme. Not to mention that we have no reason to assume it would go to the Shadowlands. The red in the Mythic fight came from Sargeras, who didn't even die.

[Eazy]

It was Xavius.

Everything is going according to the N'Zoth plan.
He knew he didn't have any chances against us, so he tricked us.

[MikeBogina]

Then again I guess it wouldn't be true to Zul'jin if, after he was shafted by a redneck meme character in a side raid he ended up getting dicked one more time beyond the grave. The writers really hate Zul'jin for some reason.

I've always had a soft spot for Zul'jin and Ner'zhul and thought they had so much potential, but current Blizzard seems to not like them as much as me. Though I was quite surprised how many of us on this forum like Zul'jin with that recent poll.

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i am not sure who is missleading shadowlands here. me or you. but shadowlands not seems to be a azeroth only thing. so i do not get the Kiljaeden statement here. also i do not understand „perma dead“. everything that is dead, as i understand it, arrives in the shadowlands. maybe i confuse Blizzards special story stuff here.

Shadowlands has been recently stated to be for mortals more than other magical beings. Magical beings such as the Demons go to the Twisting Nether when they die, mortals go to Shadowlands, Elementals go to the Elemental...plane(makes no sense because that's a "man-made place") Light beings go to the Light and Void beings go to the Void. However if they're killed in those places, they die for good in a sense that there's no coming back. With Shadowlands, we're told that if a 'dead' soul dies there, it dies for good(there's contradictions though).
With Kil'jaeden, Argus is said to be in the Twisting Nether now, or at least that space is now considered Twisting Nether, Kil'jaeden and all the demons there, died in a place that is a permanent death for them, unless Argus the engine of Fel Death anchors their souls back to him and he brings them back to life, but considering how close KJ's death was to Argus' undoing, it's possible that KJ could be permanently dead, like he's erased from our universe, in the same sense that Ursoc is most likely permanently dead. KJ's BFF Archimonde though, is most likely still alive somewhere out there as his recent deaths were Warcraft 3 and 35 years ago in an alternate timeline.

Shadowlands is really confusing, because it feels way more alive than a place that all the dead should go to for their final rest. Almost as if there's probably another Shadowlands further behind this one that the perma dead souls go to, including even Demons and others.

[Imperator4321]

I don't think anyone directly goes to the Maw from the Arbiter, the Shadowlands is based on two things 1: every mortal gets an afterlife suited to how they acted/what they valued in life, those who devoted themselves to selfless service get an afterlife where they continue that (Bastion), The Ambitious, Ruthless & Competitive souls get sent to an afterlife where thats rewarded (Maldraxxus), Souls who tended to nature get to tend to the cycle of rebirth for the wild gods (Ardenweald) along with other afterlives we've heard mentioned like what sounds like an afterlife for craftsmen (Craftenium), 2: the anima economy, since Anima is the fuel of the Shadowlands and Anima is essence of mortal souls and the product of someones choices both good and evil it would be a waste to send a soul who was a terrible person but who led a "great" life meaning they had a lot of Anima to the maw where they'd become fuel for the Jailor's purposes (which exactly whats happening now that every soul is going to the Maw)

This is where Revendreth comes into the picture, those who lived "sinful" lives get sent to revendreth where their sins/anima are expunged and forced to atone by the time they're done the soul is either been "redeemed" and whatever barrier that prevented them from going to their suited afterlife is gone or they've been completely drained of Anima get deemed irredeemable and get sent to the Maw but because they've been drained of anima they are now of less value to the Jailor/Maw.

Theres also how each afterlife serves the system of the Shadowlands, Bastion ferries souls to the Shadowlands, Maldraxxus protects the Shadowlands from outside threats, Revendreth redeems souls who's sins otherwise prevent them from being suited to another afterlife, Ardenwealds the odd man out in thats it's purpose (tending to the cycle of life & rebirth for nature spirits) doesn't directly benefit the Shadowlands.

Shadowlands is really confusing, because it feels way more alive than a place that all the dead should go to for their final rest. Almost as if there's probably another Shadowlands further behind this one that the perma dead souls go to, including even Demons and others.

Demons if they die outside the Twisting Nether go back to the Twisting Nether to reform but they presumambly just get obliterated entirely if they die within the Nether. If i understand if you "die" again in the shadowlands your individual consciousness gets obliterated and you just become anima, i think it's mentioned that native species (like the ardenweald fae) eventually reform as something else but the original identity is gone, perhaps it works in the shadowlands similarly if a soul dies in another realm they get sent back to the shadowlands.

[MikeBogina]

Demons if they die outside the Twisting Nether go back to the Twisting Nether to reform but they presumambly just get obliterated entirely if they die within the Nether. If i understand if you "die" again in the shadowlands your individual consciousness gets obliterated and you just become anima, i think it's mentioned that native species (like the ardenweald fae) eventually reform as something else but the original identity is gone, perhaps it works in the shadowlands similarly if a soul dies in another realm they get sent back to the shadowlands.

I get they perma die, i did say that in the part you didn't quote, but what I'm saying is that what we know as the final of afterlife, doesn't even feel like one anymore. Shadowlands feels like a place that isn't an afterlife, just like twisting Nether isn't really an afterlife, though demons do go there to reform. And the Elemental plane isn't an afterlife either, infact it's man-made by the Keepers, and since elementals can die for real there... even though it's not a natural place or even an after life, im starting to think that none of it really is an afterlife, that we dont see the real afterlife at all.

Ardenweald is a good point to this aswell. Select souls go there, reform and then go back to the physical realm... sounds like a similar process of demons reforming in the twisting nether. If they both die in these realms(TwistingNether/Shadowlands) they die for good.

And souls, dont really feel like what you would think a soul feels like it should in a real afterlife. It should be powerless, yet you have Kael'thas and many others having powers still. Almost as if they were stripped of a living body, but are still very much existing. Souls may very well just be mortals true forms and the First Ones may have created a process that allows souls to have a more physical life experience, rather than just being elementals... we're Anima-elementals as far as im concerned xD

So what I'm saying is that when someone truly dies for good, Demon in Twisting Nether, Elemental in... man-made elemental planes or souls in Shadowlands, maybe there's a real afterlife behind all of that, that there is no returning from(explains why we dont know of it) and you are just a soul with no power, no way of dying or harming others. Just a soul among souls at peace with no fear of some warlock trying to drink you like a smoothie.

[huth]

Shadowlands feels like a place that isn't an afterlife

Frankly, that claim makes no sense. About the only consistent defining factor of afterlifes in RL mythology is that you go there after you die. Shadowlands can't "feel like an afterlife" because there's no 'afterlife feeling' that anybody can agree on in the first place that it could possibly have.

A better claim would probably be that it isn't what you expected it to be like, but that's very much an issue with your expectations not matching reality, not the Shadowlands.

[Otaka]

Nobody I can think of.

I think all characters that would otherwise qualify for the Maw are already turned into demons and thus go to the Twisting Nether. Like Gul'dan, Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden.

Come to think of it, shouldn't Kael'thas have been in the Twisting Nether as well? After his initial defeat he was kept alive with fel crystals. That's pretty demonic if you ask me.

Perhaps Teron Gorefiend struck a deal with the jailer? It would fit his character to always come back from death. But perhaps he's demonic enough to go to the Twisting Nether as well.

Yeah, it really shows this expansion to be a lore asspull if you can't come up with anyone. All evil characters are demons, the ones that aren't demonic aren't evil enough to go to the Maw and go Revendreth instead to get redeemed.

The Maw from a storytelling perspective doesn't really add anything new. It's a rehash.

Teron Gorefiend is basically just an orc soul in a human knight's body... the first deathknight. Not demonic indeed, more like undead.

Gul'dan isnt a demon either, hes just an orc warlock who uses alot of fel magic... you dont just become a demon by using said magic, but if you fully devour demonic artifacts like Illidan did then you might become one (atleast he looks like a demon, but idk if its canon).
I feel kael'thas was simply feeding on the magic to stay alive(which blood elves had to do to stay alive, nightborne are from the same background), not consuming them completely and corrupting his soul.

Most, if not all, demons are transformed by the burning legion. (they absorb species into their faction and turn them into demons. just like what happened to the eredar)

Obviously im not talking about the orc-lore-destroyer WoD... no clue what teron gorefiend or guldan were like in that and i dont really care either. In the actual lore Gul'dan died long time ago and Teron went to the outlands after being resurrected by guldan, hence hes a boss in the Black Temple.


I dont disagree with your assesment about the storytelling perspective however.

[Imperator4321]

I get they perma die, i did say that in the part you didn't quote, but what I'm saying is that what we know as the final of afterlife, doesn't even feel like one anymore. Shadowlands feels like a place that isn't an afterlife, just like twisting Nether isn't really an afterlife, though demons do go there to reform. And the Elemental plane isn't an afterlife either, infact it's man-made by the Keepers, and since elementals can die for real there... even though it's not a natural place or even an after life, im starting to think that none of it really is an afterlife, that we dont see the real afterlife at all.

Ardenweald is a good point to this aswell. Select souls go there, reform and then go back to the physical realm... sounds like a similar process of demons reforming in the twisting nether. If they both die in these realms(TwistingNether/Shadowlands) they die for good.

And souls, dont really feel like what you would think a soul feels like it should in a real afterlife. It should be powerless, yet you have Kael'thas and many others having powers still. Almost as if they were stripped of a living body, but are still very much existing. Souls may very well just be mortals true forms and the First Ones may have created a process that allows souls to have a more physical life experience, rather than just being elementals... we're Anima-elementals as far as im concerned xD

So what I'm saying is that when someone truly dies for good, Demon in Twisting Nether, Elemental in... man-made elemental planes or souls in Shadowlands, maybe there's a real afterlife behind all of that, that there is no returning from(explains why we dont know of it) and you are just a soul with no power, no way of dying or harming others. Just a soul among souls at peace with no fear of some warlock trying to drink you like a smoothie.

I'd say thats more the problem with the concept of "visiting" the afterlife, even in universe the portal to the shadowlands in the portal room can be used by anyone two npc's from stormwind show up in Oribos apparently having decided to try and find their dead relatives.

Elementals are bound to the elemental planes which is presumambly the reason they go back there, I think the recruitment scenario for dark irons had a group of them trying to ress Ragnaros so i'm not sure if elementals perma die even in the elemental planes.

I assume the power of the soul is relative to the amount of power they had in life due to more "powerful" people having more Anima, So someone like Kael'thas who was an acomplished mage, prince of the blood elves, servant of Illidan & Kil'jaeden, would have a significant amount of Anima and therefore more power even as a soul. Even then Kael'thas starts the story in revendreth bound by the Venthyr and only starts gaining more freedom when he actually starts working with them, so even if the relationship between powerful mortal souls & the inhabitants of the shadowlands still seems to in the latters favor.

[Goge]

We know from the Bastion cinematic that Arthas was yoinked and directly thrown into the maw by Uther before he passed judgment from the Arbiter.

There is probably no one we know of who went to Revendreth than ended up in the maw after failing redemption.

I also don't believe Blizzard will be able to come up with a believable explanation as to why Sylvanas ended up in the maw after dying in Icecrown.
From the end of that cinematic (Uther tossing Arthas), i conclude that the Forsworn rebellion isn't even a thing yet (because they don't have the black look),
so the pact with the Jailer also doesn't yet exist.

And we know Sylvanas kills herself on saronite VERY soon after that moment, so Devos/Uther have no reason to take her to the Jailer in that instant.

Unless they try something like "yeah but 1 minute on Azeroth is 1 year in the Shadowlands, so Jailer and Devos were already big buddies then", i don't see how they can explain it.