King of Storwind

[VladlTutushkin]

No one made a comparison to the Horde in that vein in the first place, the act is morally milquetoast both compared to what the Horde does and - as I pointed out before you did, in terms of what the Alliance did in both this and prior expansions, including by Jaina's own troops. The fact that the Alliance playerbase nevertheless reacted as vehemently as they did for the same reason they fell over themselves to defend the comedy that were the Purge Squads before they got rewritten is the reason why the Alliance only gets Captain America storylines in the first place. Your position is incoherent in a way that neither the pro-war or pro-peace position is.

My position, ergo the pro-war position would be that there's no big issue with it and the acts don't need to be morally equivalent provided that the sides can dislike each other and fight over it and someone will eat the big one in that regard, hence why I'm all aboard the night elves going on a vengeance trip. Varodoc and others' position is that the Alliance is in fact pure as the driven snow and is the main character, and that's the point, with the Horde's out of story rewrite being their karmic punishment since people are no longer able to play said more villainous elements and this being. The reason positions like yours or, Horde-side, Grazrug's are comical is because you want your cake and to eat it too.

You want to go on this weirdly Freudian bloody rampage like the nearly sexual humiliation you think has been inflicted on the night elves, but you also want to impeccably maintain the moral highground and lash out against even the most banal moral infraction by the Alliance and against Horde races getting a role in neutral expansions. It's either one or the other, by which I mean it's only the latter because it's got a record of happening already and is at least internally logical.

If horde would shut up with mockery and humiliation at the start of BfA i wouldnt be here to begin with.
I would prefer horde to just pay up some kind of reparation sum, throw in loyalist deaths - say, they dont like their "kween" gone so much that they rebel and try to stage a coup but end up retreating to a neutral zone and taking over it to regroup, and then are killed by the Alliance forces which after that refuse to go and fight horde troops (Which arrive to that neutral zone later) because they understand the difference between the two or whatever. And then we default to something like WoW Vanilla status or actually get that "peace" at last. Then some tryhard sylvanas fanatics will bitch and moan for a while but there will be quiet on the forums and actual lore discussion instead of flinging shit and stewing in cesspools of filth.
OR
As you said "bloody rampage" which is the only way to make that war even remotely believable because so far it looks like Alliance not even fighting the horde and ts just horde ground pounding Alliance with impunity. And indeed it was somewhat subtly sexualised with a "female represented" race being pulverized, all that fanart of strong, muscly, sweaty orcs bashing puny, half-naked elven maidens with big two handed weapons or holding them hostage and all that. (and of course even weirder fanart of sylvanas and forsaken cannibalizing dead night elves) (i might be wrong on that one, but when a Russian man sees some strange context it might be it.)
And hey, i just had that thought - they tried to pull an excuse on the gruesome act of despoiling corpses with necromancy (something that sylvans fanatics compare to rape when it comes to her and Arthas). They added that shitty, disgusting "but that was done with consent" thing with undead nelfs being raised and serving horde TOTALLY on their free will. It is exactly the type of "but there was consent" that looks and feels scummy and wrong.

[Super Dickmann]

If horde would shut up with mockery and humiliation at the start of BfA i wouldnt be here to begin with.
I would prefer horde to just pay up some kind of reparation sum, throw in loyalist deaths - say, they dont like their "kween" gone so much that they rebel and try to stage a coup but end up retreating to a neutral zone and taking over it to regroup, and then are killed by the Alliance forces which after that refuse to go and fight horde troops (Which arrive to that neutral zone later) because they understand the difference between the two or whatever. And then we default to something like WoW Vanilla status or actually get that "peace" at last. Then some tryhard sylvanas fanatics will bitch and moan for a while but there will be quiet on the forums and actual lore discussion instead of flinging shit and stewing in cesspools of filth.

While there were definitely Horde posters kicking a laugh about it this is about part of the game, ditto the cheering whenever the Horde has to ditch another Warchief or help out the Alliance in their own war campaign. It's not a function of the story being told. But it's good to get your actual position on this because I heavily disagree. Any backtracking or 'only a minority of the Horde' would be a colossal missed opportunity. The only worthwhile aspect of the Burning long-term has nothing to do with the Horde and everything to do with getting the night elves back on track as they were characterized in WC3. This has been executed poorly, mingled as it has been with the Darkshore warfront that had the wrong opponent for them in the Forsaken instead of orcs and included the raised night elves that also went nowhere, but it would not be attempted at all otherwise and it's only the narrative focus on vengeance and grievance that gives the Alliance the smallest bit of internal conflict to speak of. The situation is only at all interesting if the Horde's collective responsibility is something the Night Elves at least settle on and act out against in guerilla warfare, with Anduin being unable to stop them due to a lack of internal support for a white peace.

Obviously, what I'm suggesting won't happen, but neither will what you are because both of our positions presuppose collective responsibility on the part of the Horde or Blizzard's interest in actually allowing the Alliance to do something cruel even to someone deserving. This is not a function of the Alliance being weak, at least not from the Horde perspective as we do nothing but lose in pretty much every encounter and what to you is a sexualized steamroll in Teldrassil is in the actual story detailed at length about how much subterfuge was needed and how the Horde had to struggle against night elf reservists. What it is a function of is that what works against a neutral baddie who scorse a victory and is later undone as his enemy rallies doesn't work with player factions because the faction who gets the first beating feels taken advantage as is your case here and the faction doing the beating is treated to endless lectures and later has to lose at every juncture unless the plot requires a contrivance to keep them in the game, so nobody walks away satisfied.

Regarding the orc element though, this is almost purely fan content as old as the game. The rape imagery of necromancy is less prominent with the night elves than it is with Arthas and Sylvanas, stabbing with a phallic sword and forcing compliance and all, but it is handled more poorly because Blizzard can't write either faith or betrayal for them for shit.

[VladlTutushkin]

While there were definitely Horde posters kicking a laugh about it this is about part of the game, ditto the cheering whenever the Horde has to ditch another Warchief or help out the Alliance in their own war campaign. It's not a function of the story being told. But it's good to get your actual position on this because I heavily disagree. Any backtracking or 'only a minority of the Horde' would be a colossal missed opportunity. The only worthwhile aspect of the Burning long-term has nothing to do with the Horde and everything to do with getting the night elves back on track as they were characterized in WC3. This has been executed poorly, mingled as it has been with the Darkshore warfront that had the wrong opponent for them in the Forsaken instead of orcs and included the raised night elves that also went nowhere, but it would not be attempted at all otherwise and it's only the narrative focus on vengeance and grievance that gives the Alliance the smallest bit of internal conflict to speak of. The situation is only at all interesting if the Horde's collective responsibility is something the Night Elves at least settle on and act out against in guerilla warfare, with Anduin being unable to stop them due to a lack of internal support for a white peace.

Obviously, what I'm suggesting won't happen, but neither will what you are because both of our positions presuppose collective responsibility on the part of the Horde or Blizzard's interest in actually allowing the Alliance to do something cruel even to someone deserving. This is not a function of the Alliance being weak, at least not from the Horde perspective as we do nothing but lose in pretty much every encounter and what to you is a sexualized steamroll in Teldrassil is in the actual story detailed at length about how much subterfuge was needed and how the Horde had to struggle against night elf reservists. What it is a function of is that what works against a neutral baddie who scorse a victory and is later undone as his enemy rallies doesn't work with player factions because the faction who gets the first beating feels taken advantage as is your case here and the faction doing the beating is treated to endless lectures and later has to lose at every juncture unless the plot requires a contrivance to keep them in the game, so nobody walks away satisfied.

Regarding the orc element though, this is almost purely fan content as old as the game. The rape imagery of necromancy is less prominent with the night elves than it is with Arthas and Sylvanas, stabbing with a phallic sword and forcing compliance and all, but it is handled more poorly because Blizzard can't write either faith or betrayal for them for shit.

Blizzard were veeeery aware of that, trust me. They are dumb but they can understand some concepts and they also "weird" like a "fedora wearing weird" dudes.
As for Delaryn/undead night elves concept was poor, idea was unnecessary and execution was shit. It was a bad + bad + bad with extra wrong sauce on top. No reason for them to do that, especially since it literally goes nowhere now and apparently we cant even hate them, somehow. You know, Maieve almost throwing herself infront of Tyrande's blade to save Sira. WHY THE FUCK EVEN...
Pointless, stupid idea steeped in unnecessary drama and cuckoldry. Thats all there is.
Blizzard should fucken COMMIT to something - either show us that vaunted "peace" or allow there to be war, not some moral story of Alliance forgiving and forgetting and horde not learning anything again.

[Varodoc]

Could be possible that Turalyon stays as the future King of SW. I think Anduin will fall to the Void or going insane. Cant imagine he is coming back.

Why would that happen? Anduin's in the Maw, the Maw is a realm of Death, not the Void, how would he even succumb to those whispers?

Regardless if the worst came to pass they can just ask Alleria Windrunner or Locus-Walker for help. I'm sure either of them would be thrilled to help. They can assist Anduin in controlling the whispers. He has found powerful allies in those who defied the shadows' whispers.

[Eggroll]

Could be possible that Turalyon stays as the future King of SW. I think Anduin will fall to the Void or going insane. Cant imagine he is coming back.

I hope very much this sorry excuse of a leader is somehow "forgotten" in the Maw when we return to Azeroth.

[MikeBogina]

At this point i dont see how being “under” the Light is less awful then sharing the “peace” with the horde. I mean, for general population it would be a net benefit with only clause being a religious conversion in exchange for no more having to wait for another “surprise genocide” or “annihilation oopsie” and then forgiving the horde again because they totes are innocent.
So... yeah, Light is a very appealing alternative. I take living under religious tyranny (which dosent seem to want anything from you other then a conversion and going to sermons or whatever) over waiting for a nuke in the back.

Oh well for many, being tyrannical light worshiping alliance isn't really anything new. The belief that the Alliance is in the right to attack first, yet the Horde isn't allowed to retaliate has been around for quite some time now and it'll finally be good to see other Alliance members taking a stand against it

[VladlTutushkin]

Oh well for many, being tyrannical light worshiping alliance isn't really anything new. The belief that the Alliance is in the right to attack first, yet the Horde isn't allowed to retaliate has been around for quite some time now and it'll finally be good to see other Alliance members taking a stand against it

When horde says something about tyranny or being in the wrong my eyes roll almost all the way to my brain.

[Thage]

This thread went in all sorts of directions except "forward with productive speculation."

On-topic: Turalyon is famously the kind of person who doesn't want to be a leader. It's been one of his more consistent traits in the novelizations of Warcraft 2 and Beyond the Dark Portal, and in his appearances ingame and in novels since. He'll do it if nobody else is able to step up or if called upon, as with his leading the investigation into Sylvanas's whereabouts and acting as King in Anduin's stead (though he should be a regent, unless Anduin is explicitly abdicating and Turalyon being coronated, but I'm not surprised Blizzard doesn't understand how hereditary monarchies work). I don't doubt that he's going to do what he thinks is best, which will likely be on the extreme side given he's just spent the past thousand years or so fighting a war against an omnicidal army, but if/when Anduin returns, I don't foresee much pushback from Turalyon of all people about ceding the throne back to Anduin.

[geco]

Blizzard were veeeery aware of that, trust me. They are dumb but they can understand some concepts and they also "weird" like a "fedora wearing weird" dudes.
As for Delaryn/undead night elves concept was poor, idea was unnecessary and execution was shit. It was a bad + bad + bad with extra wrong sauce on top. No reason for them to do that, especially since it literally goes nowhere now and apparently we cant even hate them, somehow. You know, Maieve almost throwing herself infront of Tyrande's blade to save Sira. WHY THE FUCK EVEN...
Pointless, stupid idea steeped in unnecessary drama and cuckoldry. Thats all there is.
Blizzard should fucken COMMIT to something - either show us that vaunted "peace" or allow there to be war, not some moral story of Alliance forgiving and forgetting and horde not learning anything again.

Actually the Maiev scene is not a useless scene. It is a scene that reminds us that Maiev is still her and as always she always takes the side of her Wardens. Even if Sira had died on the scene. Even so, she would have made it clear that Maiev is still Maiev.
Now if the rest of the Undead Sira plot is garbage.

Unlike, for example, the leaders of the Horde who speak Honor and Peace. But when the Teldrazzil thing happened they didn't do anything. Now when the Horde tries to speak of honor and peace they are nothing more than a joke.

Oh well for many, being tyrannical light worshiping alliance isn't really anything new. The belief that the Alliance is in the right to attack first, yet the Horde isn't allowed to retaliate has been around for quite some time now and it'll finally be good to see other Alliance members taking a stand against it

It is because there is already a lot of Retaliation that is due to the Alliance.
The Horde has attacked most of the time first and they are seen as the culprits of the last 3 wars.
If the Alliance started about three wars. So then we could see them as equals.

[VladlTutushkin]

Actually the Maiev scene is not a useless scene. It is a scene that reminds us that Maiev is still her and as always she always takes the side of her Wardens. Even if Sira had died on the scene. Even so, she would have made it clear that Maiev is still Maiev.
Now if the rest of the Undead Sira plot is garbage.

Unlike, for example, the leaders of the Horde who speak Honor and Peace. But when the Teldrazzil thing happened they didn't do anything. Now when the Horde tries to speak of honor and peace they are nothing more than a joke.




It is because there is already a lot of Retaliation that is due to the Alliance.
The Horde has attacked most of the time first and they are seen as the culprits of the last 3 wars.
If the Alliance started about three wars. So then we could see them as equals.

Sira is a traitor who made it clear that she (for retarded plot reasons) will rather kill her own kin then the horde. That alone warrants an execution. Only reason not to let Tyrande kill her is to drag her before the crowd and disembowel before quartering, tarring and boiling in hot oil.

[geco]

Sira is a traitor who made it clear that she (for retarded plot reasons) will rather kill her own kin then the horde. That alone warrants an execution. Only reason not to let Tyrande kill her is to drag her before the crowd and disembowel before quartering, tarring and boiling in hot oil.

We can debate whether you can consider someone who is clearly functioning under the influence of a Drug a traitor.
But you still don't understand my Point. Sira doesn't matter in the least. In BFA he is a disastrous character, within a plot of similar quality.

What matters in the scene is Maiev. That even after all she tries to save Sira. Whether he succeeds or not is the least of it.


If at least 1 Horde NPC had tried to stop Sylvanas we could say that the Horde has some Honor.

[Varitok]

Anduin and Baine are the most consistent WoW characters with visible and understandable archs, Anduin especially. The fact that these characters don't spastically jump from one extreme to the other is what bothers a lot of people, They aren't contrived in the slightest. Modern gaming audiences can only spot nuance when it's attached to a baseball bat and hitting them over the head.

[geco]

Anduin and Baine are the most consistent WoW characters with visible and understandable archs, Anduin especially. The fact that these characters don't spastically jump from one extreme to the other is what bothers a lot of people, They aren't contrived in the slightest. Modern gaming audiences can only spot nuance when it's attached to a baseball bat and hitting them over the head.

Anduin is the perfect example of the Judge who accuses women of being probationers and sets the criminal free.

Anduin seems to find a way to make the Alliance look bad and to punish it so that he feels morally correct.

Baien ... well let's say it's okay with a genocide and with them raising Kaldorei against his will but not if they touch Jaina's brother. He is such a pathetic character that even the bad guys don't want him.

No. They are not good characters. They are idalized characters who work on the basis of the world twisting so that they are well.

---------

To finish, neither of us has done anything really valuable for Peace. His version of peace is that everyone is "good and gets along" and that is why there is no war. Which is simply absurd when you have races that drove others out of their homes or that directly committed genocides against others.

No good intentions don't keep the peace.

[MikeBogina]

When horde says something about tyranny or being in the wrong my eyes roll almost all the way to my brain.

Well when Alliance say something like “surprise genocide”, “annihilation oopsie” or "nuke in the back" when they started the conflict, it makes sense that that would be where their eyes would be

When you can do harm onto a group of people and it being justified by "insert bigotry" and that group isn't allowed to retaliate, you're kinda tyrants

- - - Updated - - -

It is because there is already a lot of Retaliation that is due to the Alliance.
The Horde has attacked most of the time first and they are seen as the culprits of the last 3 wars.
If the Alliance started about three wars. So then we could see them as equals.

What would be the last 3 wars?
BFA? Started by Genn Greymane
War during Cataclysm? Started by Varian
Invasion of Kalimdor by the Kul'tirans? Started by Daelin.

3 different kings of the Alliance have started the last 3 major wars with the Horde.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually the Maiev scene is not a useless scene. It is a scene that reminds us that Maiev is still her and as always she always takes the side of her Wardens. Even if Sira had died on the scene.

Maiev should remember who Tyrande is and cut her head off already for what she did to the Wardens in Reign of Chaos

[Feanoro]

Well when Alliance say something like “surprise genocide”, “annihilation oopsie” or "nuke in the back" when they started the conflict, it makes sense that that would be where their eyes would be

When you can do harm onto a group of people and it being justified by "insert bigotry" and that group isn't allowed to retaliate, you're kinda tyrants

Yeah, it's bigotry. Definitely not the Horde repeatedly going for atrocities and wars intent on extermination. No sir, they were just minding their own business and were attacked for no reason. Enjoy MoP 3.0 when it comes, you are EXACTLY who the writers have in mind when they think the playerbase hasn't learned their hamfisted lessons.

What would be the last 3 wars?
BFA? Started by Genn Greymane

Except Sylvanas herself says that's not a factor in her starting it.

War during Cataclysm? Started by Varian

"Totally unprovoked guiz! Dat mean hooman just declared war on us innocent Horde for NO reason!"

Invasion of Kalimdor by the Kul'tirans? Started by Daelin.

Pursuing the Horde after they violently broke out of the camps, killing any military in their way, stole ships and fled. For all anyone knew, they were going to gather their strength and resume their WC1-2 rampage afterward. It would be INSANE not to pursue them.

3 different kings of the Alliance have started the last 3 major wars with the Horde.

Next up in Victim Blaming Theater...

[Gimlix]

Could be possible that Turalyon stays as the future King of SW. I think Anduin will fall to the Void or going insane. Cant imagine he is coming back.

There is 100% reason why he won't be coming back. He legit is the Alliance at this point.
If we lose Anduin that would mean the horde lost someone as great as Thrall at this point.

Since u know blizz, 50/50.

[MikeBogina]

Anduin and Baine are the most consistent WoW characters with visible and understandable archs, Anduin especially. The fact that these characters don't spastically jump from one extreme to the other is what bothers a lot of people, They aren't contrived in the slightest. Modern gaming audiences can only spot nuance when it's attached to a baseball bat and hitting them over the head.

Anduin wants the Horde and Alliance to work together, Horde players dont want him to lead us and Alliance want him to be more toxic masculine like his dad. I get the character, he feels like he's from our world and understands things better than a lot of the bigotry that you would expect in this world.

However with Baine, there's no well written character that wants both to work together, he actively only exists to hinder the Horde at any chance to "simp" for the Alliance. Anduin will fight the Horde when needed, but he'll make peace and work together to fight the mutual enemies. Baine seems to only ever exist when there's HvA going on and he always picks the Alliance over the Horde. He's only in Shadowlands because Sylvanas had him picked up, dude was probably gonna sit around waiting for another HvA conflict before he did anything again xD

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, it's bigotry. Definitely not the Horde repeatedly going for atrocities and wars intent on extermination. No sir, they were just minding their own business and were attacked for no reason. Enjoy MoP 3.0 when it comes, you are EXACTLY who the writers have in mind when they think the playerbase hasn't learned their hamfisted lessons.

It is bigotry and the irony of you saying im the one the writers are going for when it's you who wants to keep attacking the 'evil' horde is lost on you. Alliance actions in Cata caused MoP, Alliance actions in Stormheim caused MoP2.0.... gee wilickers!

Except Sylvanas herself says that's not a factor in her starting it.

Except she did, to Saurfang... Also it's a factor of why most of the Horde went along with it...

"Totally unprovoked guiz! Dat mean hooman just declared war on us innocent Horde for NO reason!"

Lol, I guess that's a good response from you

Pursuing the Horde after they violently broke out of the camps, killing any military in their way, stole ships and fled. For all anyone knew, they were going to gather their strength and resume their WC1-2 rampage afterward. It would be INSANE not to pursue them.

Bias retelling and some bigotry misunderstanding, good way to justify a genocide of a group of people who just fought a war that saved your life

Next up in Victim Blaming Theater...

I mean if you have no points to argue, why bother replying? Really though, if you dont have anything to add besides some salt, dont bother.

[geco]

Maiev should remember who Tyrande is and cut her head off already for what she did to the Wardens in Reign of Chaos

You're right.But it's asking a lot.

----
And about the wars? BFA Initiates Sylvanas has a dialog where she almost says "I can say that the war was started by Genn. But I'm too bad to do that so I'm going to say that I started it."
And the previous war again put Garrosh as the bad guy. He could find a peaceful solution but he ended up killing Caien.

As long as Blizzard keeps writing like this, it's all the Horde's fault to the point that when Anduin wants to say something bad about the Alliance he has to say Arthas. Any military action against the Horde that is written as the "big bad" is going to be fine.


I mean as you say. How weird that no one cares what Jaian's dad did. No?

[huth]

He'll do it if nobody else is able to step up or if called upon, as with his leading the investigation into Sylvanas's whereabouts and acting as King in Anduin's stead (though he should be a regent, unless Anduin is explicitly abdicating and Turalyon being coronated, but I'm not surprised Blizzard doesn't understand how hereditary monarchies work).

Does the lore ever actually call him king? I can't remember anything to that effect.

[Dellis0991]

We might see Anduin pull a Thrall and dupe himself into thinking he is without burden and "free" from the throne. I could see that becoming the catalyst for a incursion of the light happening and Turalyon going apeshit drunk off of light and probably seeing Arator's vision play out...