SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Combatbutler]

It seems it hit you on a personal level. Look no one cares. I am the least person caring about the tree, only stating what has been said. It was all over bfa story that the cruel things were all Sylvanas. Ye other people did fire it..if they didnt she would kill them probably..I mean what would you do duh.
Why are you still crying horde is bad at this point? Most people moved on from the bad storytelling, maybe try that to.

Because it is very poor storytelling to shove atrocities on a single character calling it a day, it is just downright lazy and unrealistic. It destroys world building on a fundamental level, grudges and hatreds are integral parts that should be fleshed out.

Alliance and Horde are a soulless sham, who lack personality and any kind or relatability.

[Talrath]

I think the targets were a mix of needing for something (Anduin) or just pettiness (Baine). Also could be these are the pillars of their respecting faction, easier to sow despair if you aim for the "top brass".

Malfurion does have alot of respect (although hes pretty much useless nowadays), Tyrande I dont know. I know she is the priestess and co leader of night elfs, but leaving her behind would be in my opinion the best option. Malfurion gone would mean that night elf druids would maybe, dont know for sure, kick the tauren from the cenarion circle. There is also a loose lore about Fandral, he had alot of supporters, those wouldnt follow Tyrande but Malfurion is a different story, Fandral followers would more likely follow Malfurion than Tyrande (excluding those who went nuts and went to firelands). Im trying to think why it would be good to leave Malfurion behind but I just cant come up with a reason.

[Dancaris]

Hahaha, do you really think they will turn an entire playable race into villains? All the while betraying the very premise of the Void elves?

Just like it was with orcs and with forsaken, am i right? Or it can be done only with Horde races?

[LemonDemonGirl]

It seems it hit you on a personal level. Look no one cares. I am the least person caring about the tree, only stating what has been said. It was all over bfa story that the cruel things were all Sylvanas. Ye other people did fire it..if they didnt she would kill them probably..I mean what would you do duh.
Why are you still crying horde is bad at this point? Most people moved on from the bad storytelling, maybe try that to.

Well, it's better than them refusing to do so and getting killed and going to the Maw. Doing quests with my Zandalari who's literally never seen the burning and just heared of it, is awkward af. And if she ever meets Tyrande (who she's never met)... well, the response will most likely be "Who the f**k are you, and why are you mad at me?". Soo, yeah. Makes me wish that there was a dialogue option stating you weren't there for the Burning, but she'd continue to yell anyway

Just ignore varadoc, he chooses on who to reply only when it suits him. No one takes the rp guy serious. I mean look at hes signature.

This is very true lol

[Varodoc]

Just like it was with orcs and with forsaken, am i right? Or it can be done only with Horde races?

What are you talking about? The majority of the orcs sided against Garrosh, and 99% of the Forsaken abandoned Sylvanas once she revealed her true intentions.

And for all the talk in this forum about how "unstable" the Ren'dorei are, there are a total amount of 0 crazy Ren'dorei right now. Even the foolish girl in the Island Expedition, who seems to be somewhat unstable, is ultimately loyal to the Alliance and doesn't step out of bounds.

This is very true lol

Well that's not very polite to say, person literally named "Bwonsamdi" accusing me of RP.

[Dancaris]

What are you talking about? The majority of the orcs sided against Garrosh, and 99% of the Forsaken abandoned Sylvanas once she revealed her true intentions.

We are not talking about %s, we are talking about turning playable race to bad side, just like that time when we killed best orc soldiers in SoO and top forsaken in bfa.
For your ren'dorei - if we kill Umbrick for opening gate for VoidLords to our dimension, or even Alleria(but that unlikely bc its 2020 and killing woman character in videogame is illegal) its will be the same as killing Garrosh or Nathanos.
But that time it will be Alliance fault, for once.

[Alanar]

Well, it's better than them refusing to do so and getting killed and going to the Maw. Doing quests with my Zandalari who's literally never seen the burning and just heared of it, is awkward af. And if she ever meets Tyrande (who she's never met)... well, the response will most likely be "Who the f**k are you, and why are you mad at me?". Soo, yeah. Makes me wish that there was a dialogue option stating you weren't there for the Burning, but she'd continue to yell anyway



This is very true lol

Appearntly you are not very polite lol

Good luck with that sorry m8

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Because it is very poor storytelling to shove atrocities on a single character calling it a day, it is just downright lazy and unrealistic. It destroys world building on a fundamental level, grudges and hatreds are integral parts that should be fleshed out.

Alliance and Horde are a soulless sham, who lack personality and any kind or relatability.

Wow storytelling has been bad since the very beginning, aspecially in game. But i know.. every one knows. It feels like time wasting to discuss that. Again, this was sylvanas her doing and she got the whole horde involved doing dirty work etc.

Also.. I dont care what you think of horde or alliance or why they are soulless. I was merely stating what has been said and I said it because some one said: the horde burned the tree, which is just false on a canon level.

[Feanoro]

Wow storytelling has been bad since the very beginning, aspecially in game. But i know.. every one knows. It feels like time wasting to discuss that.

Then you may be in the wrong forum.

Again, this was sylvanas her doing and she got the whole horde involved doing dirty work etc.

Ah, so now we admit the Horde might not have lily white hands after all. It's a start.

[Alanar]

Well that's not very polite to say, person literally named "Bwonsamdi" accusing me of RP.

Looks at hes account.. just a profile name.
Looks at Varadoc, signature is full of crap and moans on and on about alleria

Just be quiet Varadoc -.-

Infracted.

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Ah, so now we admit the Horde might not have lily white hands after all. It's a start.

I honestly dont know what to tell you..

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Then you may be in the wrong forum.
.

You think its usefull to discuss something like that when we all know its bad? I rather spend my time on other topics, thank you. Luckily there are enough options.

[Varodoc]

We are not talking about %s, we are talking about turning playable race to bad side, just like that time when we killed best orc soldiers in SoO and top forsaken in bfa.
For your ren'dorei - if we kill Umbrick for opening gate for VoidLords to our dimension, or even Alleria(but that unlikely bc its 2020 and killing woman character in videogame is illegal) its will be the same as killing Garrosh or Nathanos.
But that time it will be Alliance fault, for once.

Ok, but that's not what I'm saying. There is a difference between being a full-blown villain (Void elves in your hypothetical scenario) and a good force working for a bad side (orcs and Forsaken). The former will not happen.

Regardless it is unlikely that Alleria or Umbric will die, and if they do, it will be in a different circumstance than what happened in the Visions of N'Zoth, where they are literally minions of the Void who succumbed to the whispers. Blizzard wouldn't reveal their plans so early.

As well, if Alleria dies, then I demand that Blizzard spend a massive amount of time fleshing-out and developing Umbric, because he will literally be the ONLY Ren'dorei lore character left. He will first need a unique model, of course.

[Combatbutler]

Wow storytelling has been bad since the very beginning, aspecially in game. But i know.. every one knows. It feels like time wasting to discuss that. Again, this was sylvanas her doing and she got the whole horde involved doing dirty work etc.

The Horde was willing to do her dirty work and continued to do so up until N'zoth, in the end most of the horde did not betray sylvanas she left it.

Also.. I dont care what you think of horde or alliance or why they are soulless. I was merely stating what has been said and I said it because some one said: the horde burned the tree, which is just false on a canon level.

The Horde burned the tree, they were not mind controlled. They followed orders and continued to do so until Sylvanas yeeted out of OG, responsibillity does not lie with Sylvanas alone , never has and never will.

[Alanar]

The Horde burned the tree, they were not mind controlled. They followed orders and continued to do so until Sylvanas yeeted out of OG, responsibillity does not lie with Sylvanas alone , never has and never will.

Like I said.. the risk of not obeying orders or else you will get killed could be an argument, but I see you just can't let go..
She gave the order, still her doing, but if you want to see it as: I DON"T CARE! THE HORDE WILL PAY, then that's up to you.

[Verdugo]

Like I said.. the risk of not obeying orders or else you will get killed could be an argument, but I see you just can't let go..
She gave the order, still her doing, but if you want to see it as: I DON"T CARE! THE HORDE WILL PAY, then that's up to you.

This excuse didnt work for Nazis, it doesnt work for Horde.

[Alanar]

This excuse didnt work for Nazis, it doesnt work for Horde.

Damn, thats hardcore.. so all , let me say that again, all soldiers even 17 year old kids who just doing what they are told and just had to obey and do horrible things.

Same for horde.. everyone has to pay even if they weren't even there or straight up didn't know are also to blame, therefor the entire horde.

uhm.. right.

[Super Dickmann]

Like I said.. the risk of not obeying orders or else you will get killed could be an argument, but I see you just can't let go..
She gave the order, still her doing, but if you want to see it as: I DON"T CARE! THE HORDE WILL PAY, then that's up to you.

Sylvanas kills one (1) dude for disobedience (and going on a Horde soldier killing spree to save Derek pbuh) in the entire course of the Horde war campaign in Zelling and attempts to kill one (1) more in Baine (for the same reason). The Horde isn't under internal duress like how they are when the Kor'kro were trying in vain to impose some kind of ideology on them.

[Alanar]

Sylvanas kills one (1) dude for disobedience (and going on a Horde soldier killing spree to save Derek pbuh) in the entire course of the Horde war campaign in Zelling and attempts to kill one (1) more in Baine (for the same reason). The Horde isn't under internal duress like how they are when the Kor'kro were trying in vain to impose some kind of ideology on them.

I guess Sylvanas didn't need all the shouting and open acts to spread fear among the horde. Cus she sure did.. even more so then Garrosh, the difference is that Sylvanas had a cloak the entire time and acting in secret, she was only discovered at the end by Saurfang. With garrosh we were all sorta preparing to act against it much earlier on.

[Super Dickmann]

I guess Sylvanas didn't need all the shouting and open acts to spread fear among the horde. Cus she sure did.. even more so then Garrosh, the difference is that Sylvanas had a cloak the entire time and acting in secret, she was only discovered at the end by Saurfang. With garrosh we were all sorta preparing to act against it much earlier on.

The difference is that Garrosh was trying to get the Horde to follow a certain ethos and wanted to get them on board with what he was doing. Hence his spiel about how he was making a world for the orcs and anyone strong enough to stand with them, i.e follow the same beliefs as them. He was committed enough to this to enforce these rules, by force as things went on and as they chafed against everything. He made no effort to sell them on because he figured the benefits would be self-evident and the ethos what they'd already signed up for. Sylvanas had no ideological requirements of them at all and didn't directly threaten them. Her pitch was "Follow me and I'll give you the world, don't ask how I do it" and they were happy to go along with it for the most part.

[Alanar]

The difference is that Garrosh was trying to get the Horde to follow a certain ethos and wanted to get them on board with what he was doing.

Like Hitler that wanted hes ubermensh army with all the same ideals. Look he came out for it, Sylvanas didn't, Differnet style, same thing. Minus the shouting.
A remarkable thing that changed it up a little was at the end of 8.2 were Sylavanas said she did care for the forsaken (her army) but they started to have different ideals so she stopped caring sort of.

[Super Dickmann]

Like Hitler that wanted hes ubermensh army with all the same ideals. Look he came out for it, Sylvanas didn't, Differnet style, same thing. Minus the shouting.
A remarkable thing that changed it up a little was at the end of 8.2 were Sylavanas said she did care for the forsaken (her army) but they started to have different ideals so she stopped caring sort of.

Eh, it's the opposite. Garrosh was very invested in the Horde in general and the orcs in particular. Sylvanas less so, be it because she was actually feeding them all to Satan (BFA into Shadowlands) or because she just had no real consideration in the values and mostly considered it a pragmatic affair about mutual intersts (before that point). Hence their leadership style when Warchief differed. You could have done something with this story that's more interesting if they wanted to add more nuance to it, but as is, the main result is they completely de-emphasized Sylvanas as exerting any kind of force on the Horde to comply in favor of coercion and deception which means they're a lot more culpable than they were even the first time around when the non-orc races immediately struggled with Garrosh on valid and less valid grounds.

[Alanar]

Eh, it's the opposite. Garrosh was very invested in the Horde in general and the orcs in particular.

Not realy no, he was caring only for orcs as master race realy, hes ideal horde wasn't exactly friendly to any non orc hence the ubermench reference. He even started wod remember, even more ideal orcs. Both Sylvanas and Garrosh had their own things in the backround, with Garrosh we knew it was bad for us. With Sylvanas now.. we still don't know, if we have to believe her it's all for justice. This wasn't directly said by Sylvanas, but said by Anduin in the cinematic, according to her reaction it seems so.