The problem with the Horde.

[Powerogue]

Orcs: All the AU warlords
Trolls: Jindo the Godbreaker
Tauren: Magatha Grimtotem.
Blood elves: Kael’thas
Goblins: Gallywix
Undead: Sylvanas
Pandaren: Chen Stormstout
Nightborne: Grand Magistrix Elisande
Zandalari: Rastakhan
Maghar: Same as Orcs
Highmountain Tauren: Underking Drargul.

Dead.
Evil and dead.
Evil and traitorous.
Evil, traitorous and dead.
Evil, traitorous, and dead if I can get my hands around his fat neck.
Evil, traitorous, dead, resurrected, becoming more evil, raid boss inc.
Acceptable.
Traitorous, dead.
Dead.
Evil, traitorous, and dead.

Great picks there.

[Dazmalak]

Both sides agreeing to stop fighting isn't a victory for one side, it's a draw. Every faction conflict since WoW 1.0 has been a draw because of how the game is built.

You not liking how the Horde restructured itself after realizing the Warchief position has more often than not led to the autocrat in question going mad with power, or just plain mad, does not mean the Horde was removed as a global superpower or that the Alliance killed it.

The Alliance won most of the major engagements, but that doesn't translate to them winning the war when both sides agreed to a draw after Sylvanas abdicated. At no point did the factions sign paperwork declaring the Alliance victor, nor did the Alliance set any terms--a stark contrast to the treaty signed after the Siege of Orgrimmar, where terms (albeit heavily favorable to the Horde considering how much land the supposed 'decisive victors' ceded without even securing half as many of the contested areas for themselves) were actually established. Furthermore, neither faction was in a position to make those demands, since Sylvanas had successfully depleted both armies so badly that even with the rebels reinforcing their numbers, Anduin could only field enough troops for one last push--all the Horde had to do was let the Alliance exhaust themselves at Orgrimmar's gate and counterattack to win. Nobody honest with themselves would call that a decisive victory.

I'm sorry you dislike the direction the Horde took itself in after realizing what they had wasn't working out for them in the long term, but that doesn't mean the Alliance struck decisive victories over two draws, one of which happened when both armies had completely exhausted themselves.

I disagree. The Horde and the Alliance are one in the same now. Converting your enemy is still a resounding victory for the Alliance. Wars are not always fought and won with swords. When an entire "nation" basically eradicates their own system of governing and starts holding hands and mimicking its supposed enemy, you've won. The Alliance won. The Horde as a concept is dead. You will not change my mind on this.

[Thage]

I disagree. The Horde and the Alliance are one in the same now. Converting your enemy is still a resounding victory for the Alliance. Wars are not always fought and won with swords. When an entire "nation" basically eradicates their own system of governing and starts holding hands and mimicking its supposed enemy, you've won. The Alliance won. The Horde as a concept is dead. You will not change my mind on this.

That's a shame, because you are operating from a flawed premise, but if you're set on it and refuse to open yourself to alternate points of view on the matter there's no point continuing the discussion. With this in mind, I wish you a good day and a pleasant time however you opt to spend it in this or another game.

[Venziir]

There was no declared victor in the war. The fact that the Horde agreed to an armistice was a major sticking point among the Zandalari in Shadows Rising.

And again, the Horde walked out with more territory than the Alliance in both times official treaties were signed. That is not an Alliance victory. I'm sorry you don't understand how wars and treaties work and you think the only way wars end is if one side obliterates the other.

Both warfronts have been, confirmed, to have been won by the Alliance - even before the armistice. And peace treaty or not, the Alliance still won the battle of Dazar'alor.

[Feanoro]

Gauche as it is to quote yourself, with some bold for emphasis:

Horde loses characters? You don't say?

Horde fans: We want to crush the Alliance for existing! DA WER IN WERCREFT!
Blizz writers, well known for being hippies: War is bad, maaaaaaaaaan.
Horde fans: BLOOD! THUNDER! CHICKEN TENDIES!
Blizz writers: Your endgame is everyone NotHorde dead. Alliance endgame is you stop murdering them for a while. Your endgame can't happen.
Horde fans: We lust for mountains of skulls and rivers of blood! Also, don't you dare blame the war on our aggression.
Blizz writers: OK, Alliance wins because we're not flushing our business model. Everything is blamed on $hordecharacter so the Horde itself is blameless.
Horde fans: *surprised Pikachu face*

The Horde can only win a faction war if its endgame isn't to exterminate the Alliance, and vice versa. Will we have another faction war? Sure we will, because the hippies at Blizz are still concerned we haven't learned "war is bad".

[Varodoc]

Gauche as it is to quote yourself, with some bold for emphasis:


The Horde can only win a faction war if its endgame isn't to exterminate the Alliance, and vice versa. Will we have another faction war? Sure we will, because the hippies at Blizz are still concerned we haven't learned "war is bad".

The funny thing is that if some members of the Alliance had the intent to exterminate the Horde, then the war would end in like 10 minutes.

Alleria could literally solo all of Quel'Thalas, as shown in the Nightborne recruitment scenario.

[geco]

The problem is that they killed a lot of PJ Horde that are not left over.
While we have like 4 good Kaldorei leaders who could each give a different story ... I know 3 are giving it between expansions but they show it as neutral.

and I don't know how many human leaders.

After the rebellion against Garrosh the Horde must have had that evil air and dedicate itself to gaining more characters not to losing them.

Now the Horde is a group of Honorless PCs who are supposed to have revealed themselves for Honor.

[Super Dickmann]

That's a shame, because you are operating from a flawed premise, but if you're set on it and refuse to open yourself to alternate points of view on the matter there's no point continuing the discussion. With this in mind, I wish you a good day and a pleasant time however you opt to spend it in this or another game.

There is no alternative viewpoint that stands up to any sort of scrutiny. The endpoint of BFA after Mists' endpoint of eradicating the essentially orcish nature of the Orcish Horde is the removal of the last handful elements that render the Horde distinct from the Alliance, those being pragmatic motives for their presence there and differences in values that render them incompatible as well as the husk of the office of Warchief.

The first because the Alliance poses no risk at all as its leadership consists entirely of benevolent yes men who wouldn't harm a fly and don't even think genocide in which everyone was party to up until the last five minutes is the offense of anyone but the person in charge. The second because there's no value difference between Alliance and Horde at all - they're both defined by their adherence to an equally vague doctrine of honor to the point where an orcish veteran got lectured on it by a human teenager who was also the High King. Their differences are purely visually cosmetic and not even that when it comes to the nu-undead or both types of Horde elves. The final one because with the removal of the Warchief post and the Blood Oath, the Horde is quite literally a Red Alliance having a model identical to what the Alliance did in Vanilla.

[Clone]

The Horde can only win a faction war if its endgame isn't to exterminate the Alliance, and vice versa. Will we have another faction war? Sure we will, because the hippies at Blizz are still concerned we haven't learned "war is bad".

Alleria could literally solo all of Quel'Thalas, as shown in the Nightborne recruitment scenario.

lol no, why do people insist on living in alternate realities?

PS: alleria can suck a dick.

[Feanoro]

The funny thing is that if some members of the Alliance had the intent to exterminate the Horde, then the war would end in like 10 minutes.

That's my point, Alliance "wins" these stupid wars, because they're written not to even THINK of exterminating the Horde. Anyone who even wants justice for the Horde's genocide du jour is immediately hit with the "crazy" or "villain" bats.

lol no, why do people insist on living in alternate realities?

I don't know, why DO Hordies keep pretending the Horde is innocent when Blizzard has said otherwise in thirty foot flaming letters? Why DO they refuse to understand the business model will not allow either faction to destroy the other one?

PS: alleria can suck a dick.

What she and Turalyon do in private time is their business.

[Schattenlied]

Chen is the og Pandaren Hero.

Who would never in a million years join your warmongering vision of the Horde.

My fixed Horde can face the alliance legends heads on.

Your broken Horde would bring on more pointless war and death.

The alliance is my enemy and i will never accept that peace treaty.

Then guess what? You are one of the aforementioned fringe group people. Stop trying to turn the Horde into something stupid.

[VladlTutushkin]

lol no, why do people insist on living in alternate realities?

PS: alleria can suck a dick.

Alleria can dip a toe in your Well and blood elves are done for.

[TickTickTick]

I would do anything to get rid of Baine and Thrall.

You might start with taking a break. Having such strong, negative feelings towards fictional characters is extremely unhealthy. With people like you leaving, everyone wins - you, us and Blizzard.

[Darth-Piekus]

You might start with taking a break. Having such strong, negative feelings towards fictional characters is extremely unhealthy. With people like you leaving, everyone wins - you, us and Blizzard.

I agree. MMO Champion would have been a better place without a certain Insert Mad Warchief Fanbase and their acid aura.

[Combatbutler]

Alleria can dip a toe in your Well and blood elves are done for.

They'd just destroy the corrupted well, wouldn't be the first time.

[Varodoc]

Alleria can dip a toe in your Well and blood elves are done for.

Pretty much.

Or she can just tear open rifts leading straight into the Void, which the Ren'dorei canonically can do, and it's not even such a noteworthy ability of theirs. Random Ren'dorei could tear open portals to the Void in the Zuldazar campaign. Void spawns could then come over to Azeroth from said rifts and be directed against the Horde.

Point is, the Ren'dorei could destroy any Horde race at any point they want. Their offensive capabilities are unrivalled, their might unparalleled. The only thing holding them back is that Blizzard does not write the Alliance as the aggressors.

The Void has always been feared as the most powerful, insidious, and destructive power in the cosmos. Even Ner'zhul, wisest of the orcs, succumbed to the whispers. So now there is a group of mortals who defied the whispers and ascended, which means that they no doubt wield untold powers which could DEVASTATE the Horde if they were to be unleashed.

But I noticed that the Alliance allied races were done VERY DIRTY in the Fourth War. The Ren'dorei and LF Draenei barely played a role, and the Dark Iron summoned a bunch of lava giants and that was it.

[Rendark]

Reading this guys stuff really makes me want a 3rd faction for people that don't care about the horde or alliance.

[VladlTutushkin]

They'd just destroy the corrupted well, wouldn't be the first time.

If they are able to overcome a whole army of Void spawn and creatures coming through. And even if they do by that time whole island will be overrun and rendered uninhabitable and they will lose their magic source and a holy place. Plus if they fail then void elfs will most likely take the island and the Well to use as they wish.

[Verdugo]

If they are able to overcome a whole army of Void spawn and creatures coming through. And even if they do by that time whole island will be overrun and rendered uninhabitable and they will lose their magic source and a holy place.

Destroying entire world just to dab on Blood Elves would be an interesting proposition.

[Combatbutler]

If they are able to overcome a whole army of Void spawn and creatures coming through. And even if they do by that time whole island will be overrun and rendered uninhabitable and they will lose their magic source and a holy place. Plus if they fail then void elfs will most likely take the island and the Well to use as they wish.

Sure they can, since they most certainly wouldn't be alone with this, void addled armies were beaten again and again, the aqir, C'thun, the twilights hammer, the mantid, the sha, shadowmnoon clan, fallen naaru, the faceless ones, Yogg saron, the naga, N'zoth ultimately the powers the void elves use are nothing special