King of Storwind

[geco]

That whole plot is literally "We want to do what Arthas did but avoid all those uncomfortable parallels with rape WE built up over years to prop up sylvanas as that "victim" character who gets back at... everybody aside from her actual tormentor." So they said that those elves were okay with desecration and undeath and just decided to serve without question. Fucken hell. Its... so morally bancrupt that i am not sure anymore what to say.

Basically it is mind control but we cannot say that it is mind control because it is widely used.
But after a while with that it turns out that it was mind control. But in Blizzard's mania of getting complicated just to ruin his story. We have this story where basically Sira can now only think about seeking to cause the most deaths. And since Sylvanas had a plan to kill absolutely everyone. You have to follow her.

Although she hopes BFA Now they are going to tell us that they were tortured in the Maw or something similar.

[tommyhil622]

If Turalyon is regent, then what does that make Alleria exactly?

Not sure tbh. She probably wouldn’t have a title unless Turalyon transitions into actually being king.

[huth]

Simple. If Turalyon is treated as the actual King, not just Regent, then she is the Queen. If Turalyon is treated as a mere Regent, she's... huh... "regent consort"? Does this term exist? Either way, she's a high-ranking advisor of the Alliance now, on top of being the leader of the Ren'dorei which she already was back in BfA.

Only in the sense of "consort to the one who is regent". It doesn't have any practical difference compared to just calling her his wife. Regent is more of a job description than a formal title here as well, so it would be like calling somebody the mailman consort.

[MikeBogina]

Horde broke the peace during WoD in Ashran and yet i dont see Alliance declaring a world war on them for that. There is a gap between retaliation and genocide or nuking.

Sorry what's this "ashran" you speak of? Never heard of it, did it play a big part in WoD or something?

Jokes aside, Ashran is a mess and was a game mechanic that had both Horde and Alliance fighting over a superweapon that was never used in the main story. Literally a world pvp zone that never once effected the actual plot of the story of WoD nor was it ever brought up outside of it.

Apples and Oranges, you're trying to compare that to the assault and attempted murder of the Horde's Warchief. Let me know next when you want to bring up quests given to us in Oribos from the Brokers who want us to fight in the arena and tell me if that's the same as Genn assaulting the Horde fleet and trying to kill their leader.

There is a gap between retaliation and genocide or nuking. You dont beat someone to death with a spiked club for them punching you in the shoulder.

You start a war and then try to dictate how the other responds. Kinda weird.
Lets say it like this, the Alliance tried to kill the Horde, the horde then killed the Alliance back... but did it better. Both the war in Cata started off with the attempted killing of Thrall and the one we just got out of started with the attempted killing of Sylvanas.

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I repeat. See the Kaldorei army somewhere?
Do you see Maiev, Malfurion and Tyrande?
Or do you just see Shandris with some troops?

Night Elves, Night Elves and Night Elves. Who just used their remaining military might to take back Darkshore and were no longer answering the call of Anduin.

Not to mention that it is assumed that Anduin could not send all the troops to Kalimndor ... otherwise he would have helped in Teldrazil.

Cause he didn't have anyone to spare anymore. They literally say they have only farmers to recruit in the beginning of the expansion and this is towards the end. The Aliiance just dont have the numbers anymore.

If Anduin says that's all the troops he has left then it's clear ... Anduin has zero leadership capabilities.

Hey now, he doesn't need any! his plot armor is big enough for everyone to get under

But seriously, the Alliance with the rebels didn't stand a chance and we dont even see the Zandalari here who were still on Sylvanas' side of the war at this point. Alliance and the rebels didn't stand a chance and knowing how powerful Sylvanas secretly was, she could easily kill any trump cards.

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Read the second sentence. It tells you exactly what.

Can you tell me where in this "Yes, with his ability as a commander. Not as a nation leader. Quite different skillsets." that you actually list the skills a WARchief requires that a commander doesn't have. Don't just say it's not the same, explain why it's not the same. Give examples, give details.

Sounds more like "she knew she couldn't win or prolong it much further, so she got as many people killed as possible".

Sounds more like when the Alliance had the advantage to win, she sacrificed some ships to wipe out their fleet. Also definitely prolongs it, they even say
"Our sister is patient. She knows we have precious few soldiers left. While we lay siege to Orgrimmar, she will wittle away our numbers."

The Horde didn't exactly get out of that one unscathed, either.

No, but the didn't lose nearly as much as the Alliance did which... prolongs the war

We also quickly found that Sylvanas' army wouldn't have been able to do shit about N'zoth, had she any real intention of doing so.

ohh do tell, when did we find out about this? And regardless if that's true or not, that doesn't take away the statement that they're saying her army has the only chance at winning, implying her forces are superior to their forces.

And "regardless of how justified" and "regardless of how unjustified" mean the same thing.

That's like saying "I could care less" and I couldn't care less" is the same thing, it's not. Are you a native English speaker?

[geco]

Night Elves, Night Elves and Night Elves. Who just used their remaining military might to take back Darkshore and were no longer answering the call of Anduin.

But his army is still there and it's not there.
Either that or that is all the Alliance has left. It's everything Anduin could come up with in such a short time.

Cause he didn't have anyone to spare anymore. They literally say they have only farmers to recruit in the beginning of the expansion and this is towards the end. The Aliiance just dont have the numbers anymore.

In any case, it only has human farmers.
But they were still beating the Horde on all fronts not counting the rebellious Horde.
The entire Horde was losing to the Alliance already. Said by nathanos.

Hey now, he doesn't need any! his plot armor is big enough for everyone to get under

But seriously, the Alliance with the rebels didn't stand a chance and we dont even see the Zandalari here who were still on Sylvanas' side of the war at this point. Alliance and the rebels didn't stand a chance and knowing how powerful Sylvanas secretly was, she could easily kill any trump cards.

Sylvanas?
Give if they let Malfurion, Jaina or the Vendicar use all their power, this has already been decided.

The Horde lost the war before starting. So misspelled mushroom BFA-

[Aresk]

That's like saying "I could care less" and I couldn't care less" is the same thing, it's not. Are you a native English speaker?

Minor point here: "regardless of X" and "regardless of not X" do mean the same thing, as you're saying that "X" doesn't change the statement, which implicitly means "not X" doesn't change the statement. If it was justified or if it wasn't justified doesn't matter to what is being said. That is different than saying that you could or could not do something.

On the topic of winning/losing the war, Anduin said to Saurfang, "Enough for one final assault. If that fails, we're done." That last sentence could be taken several different ways. It could mean Sylvanas wins. It could mean he's no longer working with Saurfang. It could mean he's no longer seeking to remove Sylvanas as Warchief and instead focusing on maintaining his hold on current Alliance territory. Considering the Alliance won both warfronts, it seems really weird to say that Sylvanas would have won all of Azeroth if that one battle failed, but as you point out, Alleria thinks only the Horde loyalists are capable of killing N'zoth (though that could also be due to assumptions that Sylvanas still has the Black Blade, given that Alliance did not know of Sylvanas' deal with Azshara). In general I think that the capabilities of Horde and Alliance were horribly telegraphed throughout BfA, leading to some inconsistent outcomes.

With respect to the Vol'jin declaration, it seems clear presently that it was Mueh'zala's treachery. Whether that was the original plan or not when they made that cinematic, I cannot say. The fact that Sylvanas didn't want to be named warchief, was proud to be warchief, and hated acting as warchief--while not strictly contradictory--imply that the people developing the narrative had some conflicting information. I do find it difficult to believe Sylvanas cares for the Horde, however, when she snuffed out most of the Desolate Council (even those heeding her orders), ordered some of her loyalists to actively kill other loyalists, made a deal with Azshara to kill the Horde champions regardless of their loyalty, and admitted to thinking the Horde was nothing.

[Kithelle]

Could be possible that Turalyon stays as the future King of SW. I think Anduin will fall to the Void or going insane. Cant imagine he is coming back.

He is supposed to live till old age so unless they decided to retcon that in SL, he's coming back

[Verdugo]

He is supposed to live till old age so unless they decided to retcon that in SL, he's coming back

They tried to backpedal on that by saying its a possible future.

[Aleksej89]

tokenism is the cheapest most favored type of design and marketing for companies, basically loud and shallow works the best to get popularity and quick $ at low costs.

Turalyon and alleria... honestly i dont like their characters, their appearance or their roles in the story.
I hope they both go back to being missing for a few decades because they just ruin whatever they appear in.

Turalyons voice actor at least gives it his all and in dramatic scenes manages to convey some emotions.
Alleria is like a cheese board without the cheese... just bland, tasteless and basic.

Anduin gets a lot of hate but personally i never found him as game ruining as sylvanas, nathanos, turalyon and alleria.
Those characters make me mute WoW sound, skip cinematics and alt-tab until they are done with whatever nonsense they were doing.

As orcish as varian wrynn was he had good voice acting and seemed like he was active in whatever story is going on.
Frankly they should have kept him instead of turalyon and alleria.
Hopefully turalyon goes berserk and starts a holy crusade, he definitely seems the type and alliance has been too passive (just reacting to horde) since forever.

[Kithelle]

They tried to backpedal on that by saying its a possible future.

Then it's still possible he will survive...only time will tell I guess

[MikeBogina]

But his army is still there and it's not there.
Either that or that is all the Alliance has left. It's everything Anduin could come up with in such a short time.

The wining army doesn't just replenish their forces. The Night Elves threw everything they had at Darkshore, there's not many fit for combat left. And Short time would probably be waiting for kids to grow up, since they dont have anymore soldiers left. They say they're drafting farmers now.(that's never a good sign)

In any case, it only has human farmers.

Humans make up the bulk of the Alliance forces, when they're down to farmers... it's over.

But they were still beating the Horde on all fronts not counting the rebellious Horde.

They were, but that again doesn't mean that they have numbers left.

The entire Horde was losing to the Alliance already. Said by nathanos.

"Times change"

Sylvanas?
Give if they let Malfurion, Jaina or the Vendicar use all their power, this has already been decided.

Sylvanas can kill Malfurion and Jaina with ease, there's 2 cinematics showing how she was secretly holding back her powers. And the Vindicaar? The writers didn't acknowledge it, nor did any character so why bring it up? Also Oculeth > Vindicaar

The Horde lost the war before starting

uhh huh

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Minor point here: "regardless of X" and "regardless of not X" do mean the same thing, as you're saying that "X" doesn't change the statement, which implicitly means "not X" doesn't change the statement. If it was justified or if it wasn't justified doesn't matter to what is being said. That is different than saying that you could or could not do something.

One implies disregarding how justified alliance is and the other implies how unjustified one is, not the same thing.

Saying regardless of how justified the Alliance is, would usually follow with despite that they're justified, they shouldn't of something like.
Saying regardless of how unjustified the alliance is, would usually follow with they were still right to do whatever they did or something like that.

On the topic of winning/losing the war, Anduin said to Saurfang, "Enough for one final assault. If that fails, we're done." That last sentence could be taken several different ways. It could mean Sylvanas wins. It could mean he's no longer working with Saurfang.

I had to stop here, there is no way anyone would ever interpret it that way. It means that they've lost, they have nothing left.

With respect to the Vol'jin declaration, it seems clear presently that it was Mueh'zala's treachery. Whether that was the original plan or not when they made that cinematic, I cannot say.

It is his treachery now, that's canon, but it doesn't fit the cinematic at all. It's clear that at the time of the cinematic, that there wasn't some secret plot with the Jailer and Sylvanas, that is something made-up later. Mueh'zala is doing some force exposition the moment we arrive in De Other Side for a reason. Baine did some forced LEADING questioning with Vol'jin for a reason.

I do find it difficult to believe Sylvanas cares for the Horde

Her activities in Legion contradicts her actions in BFA. In Legion, she herself leads the charge to the Broken Shore, no secret plot going on, not aware of Mueh'zala at all. She saves Varian, she has respectful dialogue with Varian and leads the charge against the Legion for the Horde. When taking the ridge, she provides covering fire for the Alliance, despite the Horde facing worst numbers(literally battleships firing on us) and when Baine and Thrall "fall", she has her Valkyr bring them to her to save them. Then the cinematic kicks in, she goes to save Vol'jin who then tells her to save the Horde, to which she is obviously reluctant to retreat(her new BFF needs her) but the Horde comes first so they retreat.
Immediately she is blamed by the Alliance playerbase who want her head for abandoning Varian, they didn't watch the Horde cinematic and over time that argument has all been dropped from them(they wont admit they were wrong though). Genn's character in game uses Varian's death as a lame excuse to get revenge on Sylvanas, players tried to say it was because of the her capturing Eyir, but it turns out he didn't care about any of that and just wanted revenge for his son. But Alliance cried about Sylvanas so much, that the damage was done and by the time BFA rolled around, she was turned into the villain.

She is Garrosh2.0. Alex even admitted that he was making Garrosh a better person in the beginning of Cata, but they decided to change him into a villain instead.

[Feanoro]

Immediately she is blamed by the Alliance playerbase who want her head for abandoning Varian, they didn't watch the Horde cinematic and over time that argument has all been dropped from them(they wont admit they were wrong though). Genn's character in game uses Varian's death as a lame excuse to get revenge on Sylvanas, players tried to say it was because of the her capturing Eyir, but it turns out he didn't care about any of that and just wanted revenge for his son. But Alliance cried about Sylvanas so much, that the damage was done and by the time BFA rolled around, she was turned into the villain.

She is Garrosh2.0. Alex even admitted that he was making Garrosh a better person in the beginning of Cata, but they decided to change him into a villain instead.

Imagine unironically believing they create entire expansions in response to either side crying. There's no point whatsoever in refuting this crap.

[Aresk]

One implies disregarding how justified alliance is and the other implies how unjustified one is, not the same thing.

Saying regardless of how justified the Alliance is, would usually follow with despite that they're justified, they shouldn't of something like.
Saying regardless of how unjustified the alliance is, would usually follow with they were still right to do whatever they did or something like that.

That's a fair interpretation. From a purely logical perspective, the two mean the same thing, but I'll give you that casual speech tends to disregard logic.

Her activities in Legion contradicts her actions in BFA. In Legion, she herself leads the charge to the Broken Shore, no secret plot going on, not aware of Mueh'zala at all. She saves Varian, she has respectful dialogue with Varian and leads the charge against the Legion for the Horde. When taking the ridge, she provides covering fire for the Alliance, despite the Horde facing worst numbers(literally battleships firing on us) and when Baine and Thrall "fall", she has her Valkyr bring them to her to save them. Then the cinematic kicks in, she goes to save Vol'jin who then tells her to save the Horde, to which she is obviously reluctant to retreat(her new BFF needs her) but the Horde comes first so they retreat.
Immediately she is blamed by the Alliance playerbase who want her head for abandoning Varian, they didn't watch the Horde cinematic and over time that argument has all been dropped from them(they wont admit they were wrong though). Genn's character in game uses Varian's death as a lame excuse to get revenge on Sylvanas, players tried to say it was because of the her capturing Eyir, but it turns out he didn't care about any of that and just wanted revenge for his son. But Alliance cried about Sylvanas so much, that the damage was done and by the time BFA rolled around, she was turned into the villain.

She is Garrosh2.0. Alex even admitted that he was making Garrosh a better person in the beginning of Cata, but they decided to change him into a villain instead.

That's all true. You conveniently left out that as soon as the Alliance attacks (regardless of whether it was justified or unjustified ), she abandons the Forsaken fleet and Horde champion to pursue her own plans. She strikes some deal with a villainous figure and leaves the Horde champion in Helheim. Sylvanas then runs off to enslave Eyir. All of these plans were clearly developed before the release of the Vol'jin cinematic, so the writers clearly had some inclination of what that Warchief announcement was leading to. There may or may not have been a defined Jailer character at that point, but they clearly intended for Sylvanas to pursue some power grab in the realm of death. Whether that was to wage another war on Greymane after the attack or to conquer the cosmos alongside the Jailer, I can't say for certain, because I've never seen Blizzard announce what was outlined at that point, but she clearly had her own pursuits that did not align with the practically Azeroth-wide plan to stop the Legion using the Pillars of Creation.

As for Sylvanas' betrayal of the Alliance on the Broken Shore, I agree that the Alliance blew everything way out of proportion. Genn, who (justifiably, in my opinion) loathes Sylvanas and will look for any excuse to throw blame her, immediately uses her as a scapegoat when the Horde sound the retreat, and then she becomes a convenient target for his anger over the loss of his friend. What I don't get is why Sylvanas or Baine didn't inform Alliance leadership of their side of the story, particularly since we know Baine was in contact with Anduin at that point of time (with communication cut off just before BfA). It seems like it would be pretty easy to clear up that the perceived betrayal was no betrayal at all.

[huth]

That's a fair interpretation. From a purely logical perspective, the two mean the same thing, but I'll give you that casual speech tends to disregard logic.

I disagree. Since it is being disregarded, the difference is irrelevant. It's changing the sign of a term that isn't being considered at all.
How you would then follow up on it is a meaningless question, since it is a statement that means that you do not follow up on it.

What I don't get is why Sylvanas or Baine didn't inform Alliance leadership of their side of the story, particularly since we know Baine was in contact with Anduin at that point of time (with communication cut off just before BfA). It seems like it would be pretty easy to clear up that the perceived betrayal was no betrayal at all.

I think Baine eventually did, which is why Genn is more focused on Sylvanas specificially.

[BaumanKing]

Our sweet boy will return to throw this toxic man off his throne. This is a pretty obvious development of events. It would be funny tho if Anduin returned and Turalyon was such a good ruler that the people of the Alliance would want him to continue to rule. What would Anduin's reaction be?

a henpecked husband thinking that some torture on the side is what will spice up his centuries old marriage

What happened tho? I remember how in the old books Turalyon and Alleria were on the same page in their relationship. He could even yell at her when she was hysterical. But now he's a doormat. Which is rather strange for a veteran of a horrific space war. It's funny how he looks like Clint Eastwood, but acts nothing like him.

[VladlTutushkin]

Sorry what's this "ashran" you speak of? Never heard of it, did it play a big part in WoD or something?

Jokes aside, Ashran is a mess and was a game mechanic that had both Horde and Alliance fighting over a superweapon that was never used in the main story. Literally a world pvp zone that never once effected the actual plot of the story of WoD nor was it ever brought up outside of it.

Apples and Oranges, you're trying to compare that to the assault and attempted murder of the Horde's Warchief. Let me know next when you want to bring up quests given to us in Oribos from the Brokers who want us to fight in the arena and tell me if that's the same as Genn assaulting the Horde fleet and trying to kill their leader.


You start a war and then try to dictate how the other responds. Kinda weird.
Lets say it like this, the Alliance tried to kill the Horde, the horde then killed the Alliance back... but did it better. Both the war in Cata started off with the attempted killing of Thrall and the one we just got out of started with the attempted killing of Sylvanas.

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Night Elves, Night Elves and Night Elves. Who just used their remaining military might to take back Darkshore and were no longer answering the call of Anduin.


Cause he didn't have anyone to spare anymore. They literally say they have only farmers to recruit in the beginning of the expansion and this is towards the end. The Aliiance just dont have the numbers anymore.


Hey now, he doesn't need any! his plot armor is big enough for everyone to get under

But seriously, the Alliance with the rebels didn't stand a chance and we dont even see the Zandalari here who were still on Sylvanas' side of the war at this point. Alliance and the rebels didn't stand a chance and knowing how powerful Sylvanas secretly was, she could easily kill any trump cards.

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Can you tell me where in this "Yes, with his ability as a commander. Not as a nation leader. Quite different skillsets." that you actually list the skills a WARchief requires that a commander doesn't have. Don't just say it's not the same, explain why it's not the same. Give examples, give details.


Sounds more like when the Alliance had the advantage to win, she sacrificed some ships to wipe out their fleet. Also definitely prolongs it, they even say
"Our sister is patient. She knows we have precious few soldiers left. While we lay siege to Orgrimmar, she will wittle away our numbers."


No, but the didn't lose nearly as much as the Alliance did which... prolongs the war

ohh do tell, when did we find out about this? And regardless if that's true or not, that doesn't take away the statement that they're saying her army has the only chance at winning, implying her forces are superior to their forces.


That's like saying "I could care less" and I couldn't care less" is the same thing, it's not. Are you a native English speaker?

Your sarcasm is about as dull as it gets. No, Alliance wasnt trying to “kill the horde”. During BfA Anduin specifically mentions how both factions should survive this conflict and that he has no intentions on dismantling or destroying the horde and even expects them to be open to peace talks once its all over.
So, yes, its called a disproportional response and works same as in the real world. USSR shot down NATO planes and opened fire on their troops in neutral zones but it never led to a nuclear war or World War 3 because again - you dont grab a gun when someone bumped into you on the road.

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I disagree. Since it is being disregarded, the difference is irrelevant. It's changing the sign of a term that isn't being considered at all.
How you would then follow up on it is a meaningless question, since it is a statement that means that you do not follow up on it.



I think Baine eventually did, which is why Genn is more focused on Sylvanas specificially.

Baine did, but only after Legion expansion was over. Dont remember why though.

[Varodoc]

People really don't understand Turalyon's character, do they?

He is not, and never was, a "fanatic". When Alleria used the Void and was imprisoned by Xe'ra, a fanatic would have forsaken her. Instead Turalyon actually felt very conflicted, as he valued his love for Alleria more than Xe'ra's wisdom, and even begged Xe'ra to show mercy. His love for Alleria always overshadowed his devotion to the Light.

Then, in Legion, after Xe'ra was literally slain in front of his eyes by Illidan, a fanatic would have refused to join forces with the same mongrel who destroyed their goddess. But Turalyon didn't do so. He showed mercy and benevolence. He put aside his differences to help Illidan defeat the Legion, the same Illidan who was a demon mongrel and destroyed Xe'ra in that very same patch.

Turalyon is not, never was, and will never be a "tyrant" or a "fanatic". He is a good man. And Alleria is a good person too. It wouldn't surprise me if they were quite a popular couple in-universe, because they are kind of the ideal couple. A handsome and virtuous warrior, and a beautiful and strong woman, who truly love each other and will always be there to support one another, regardless of their differing powers. Perfect.

The Light villain will not be Turalyon but Yrel. Yrel is young and impressionable, and unfortunately she was manipulated and led astray by the Naaru. She has forged the Lightbound and seeks to cleanse the cosmos from its imperfections. Yrel is foil for Turalyon. Turalyon has people around him that he loves more than the Light, while Yrel has no one. She does not have a loving partner, she does not have children, her only family was killed, and her master sacrificed himself. She is alone, which means that there is nothing to counterbalance her devotion to the Light. That's why Yrel is foil for Turalyon and it is she who will be a villain, and not Turalyon.

[bagina]

Imagine unironically believing they create entire expansions in response to either side crying. There's no point whatsoever in refuting this crap.

Uhh they made Bolvar into the Lich King because of fan reception. They absolutely change the narrative based on fans' reactions, see Bwonsamdi and Zappy as another recent example

[VladlTutushkin]

Uhh they made Bolvar into the Lich King because of fan reception. They absolutely change the narrative based on fans' reactions, see Bwonsamdi and Zappy as another recent example

From sylvanas fanatic that sounds contrived as all hell. If anything she was the biggest "keep around because of fans" and had an effect of Old Yeller who was never shot and spread rabies to a whole state.

[Varodoc]

From sylvanas fanatic that sounds contrived as all hell. If anything she was the biggest "keep around because of fans" and had an effect of Old Yeller who was never shot and spread rabies to a whole state.

You can take solace in the fact that the zombie will die in this expansion, which means that the evil psycho will finally be gone by 10.0 or even just 9.3.