Do you think the Alliance and Horde leaders could have defeated Arthas as Lich King?

[OwenBurton]

This is a longer, and largely speculatory thread. While you don't have to take this entirely seriously -- I am genuinely very curious all the same. The Lich King was one of the most powerful entities ever to exist, but in the end, he was slain nevertheless by the combined efforts of Tirion Fordring and the champions of Azeroth.

I am wondering though -- if the mightiest members of the factions, the greatest of the Alliance and the Horde leaders, rather than their champions (who were still common people from ordinary backgrounds) had engaged Arthas, either separately or together, what would have happened? Could they have actually won? Or would all the leaders have inevitably perished?

First of all, the Lich King was NOT invincible -- he was wounded by the Blight unleashed at the Wrath Gate and was forced to almost immediately retreat; Arthas was actually choking, and might have actually died there had he not done so. Uther was winning their battle at first, and with other experienced Silver Hand paladins such as Turalyon to assist him, might have crushed Arthas (who won according to the novel, because he had the faster weapon and fighting style, not because of combat superiority). Illidan and Kael'thas (whose Artifact weapon Felo'melorn could actually withstand Frostmourne) were also able to fight evenly with him for a while, and under slightly different circumstances and with a little more backup might have actually defeated him; Sylvanas paralyzed and nearly defeated him earlier with a single poisoned arrow (but this was admittedly before he was empowered, so maybe let's forget that). Tirion successfully drove him from Light's Hope Chapel, so he is vulnerable to the Light somewhat.

If you go to the dungeon, Jaina and Sylvanas were able to reduce his health by nearly half in their reunion / confrontation at the Halls of Reflection, and were able to bind him briefly in place as well with a spell, so he was not entirely immune to either of their powers. I personally think even unaided, leaders like Velen alone could conceivably match or at least hold off Arthas (he briefly stalemated Kil'jaeden after all, and his instantly purifying a fallen naaru seems comparable a feat to the shard of a single naaru in Ashbringer, breaking Frostmourne).

Let's try to imagine different scenarios, how such a colossal battle would play out --

1. The Alliance leaders attack Arthas directly -- fighting him at Icecrown at the final battle. As he originally intended, King Varian personally leads the charge against his old friend, backed by Tyrande Whisperwind calling upon Elune's guidance and protection; Malfurion Stormrage invoking the aid of the Emerald Dream and the Ancients and Wild Gods (the green dragons' powers are especially strong against the Scourge in Dragonblight); Magni Bronzebeard; and Velen, summoning the naaru's power and doing what he can to predict Lich King's moves, massively healing the other leaders constantly. Add in Jaina Proudmoore fighting her ex-lover's Frost with Frost, sweeping away his Remorseless Winters with her Blizzard, launching enormous Pyroblasts to break through his defenses, and also manipulating time and space using arcane magic, and Gelbin, equipped with his high-level technology and providing aerial support soaring around in his robo-suit, if you want as well.

- Essentially, Tank: Varian; Healer: Velen; DPS: Tyrande, Malfurion, Magni (possibly with Jaina and Gelbin in the background)


2. The Horde leaders attack Arthas directly -- Cairne Bloodhoof leading the charge, the tauren having the greatest stamina and strength out of all of them; Thrall with his full shaman powers engaging Arthas, using his considerable power over Life to counter the powers of Arthas over Death; Lor'themar Theron providing melee and ranged backup from the sidelines; Vol'jin using his own unique shadow hunter powers to support and heal his allies; Sylvanas doing what she can to disrupt his Scourge powers, flying around firing arrows and using her Banshee scream and her other abilities, and perhaps secretly and portably weaponizing the Blight as well as an emergency move if all else fails to defeat him

- Essentially, Tank: Cairne; Healer: Thrall; DPS: Lor'themar, Vol'jin, and Sylvanas (possibly with additional backup from Rommath, Liadrin, Saurfang and Garrosh)


3. All the Alliance and Horde leaders put aside their differences and unite to attack Arthas together.

- Essentially, Tanks: Varian, Cairne; Healers: Velen and Thrall; DPS: Tyrande, Malfurion, Magni, Jaina, Gelbin fighting alongside Lor'themar, Vol'jin, Sylvanas, Liadrin, Rommath, Saurfang and Garrosh


4. Other scenarios, such as Jaina engaging Arthas again, with the combined forces of all the members of the Council of Six at her side -- what would have happened in this scenario? Or the Kirin Tor trying to drop a massive mana bomb on Icecrown? Could other beings such as the Dragon Aspects have easily defeated him, Alexstrasza and the red dragons trying to incinerate him with their flames?

What do you think honestly could have happened? If the Alliance and Horde leaders / Council of Six / Alexstrasza and the other Dragon Aspects have attacked Arthas?

[kaelix1]

Everyone except Malfurion/Tyrande/Velen would be a dead weight, those 3 would defeat Arthas np if they would properly use their power

[DeltrusDisc]

Everyone except Malfurion/Tyrande/Velen would be a dead weight, those 3 would defeat Arthas np if they would properly use their power

This exactly.

Alliance literally has god-tier leaders.

[Varodoc]

Varian, Magni, and all the Horde leaders are worthless fodder that would only get in the way. Tyrande, Malfurion, and Velen are enough.

People forget that Tyrande and Malfurion can literally solo entire armies (Sylvanas and Saurfang even acknowledged that if both of them were fighting the Horde, then they would have single-handedly won the War of Thorns for the Alliance), while Velen is so smart and brilliant that he led Argus alongside Archimonde and Kil'jaeden.

The Lich King was always a kind of villain who relied on his overwhelming armies and vast pletora of champions to win. While he himself is physically strong, he is not astonishing. He is no Deathwing or Archimonde, who can get shit done without the need of armies.

But do you know what would make this even funnier? If you put the Lich King against the current leaders. Against Alleria, Night Warrior Tyrande, and Anduin with his massive Light-based spells, the Lich King would literally be oneshot.

[Razion]

Arthas wanted to mold us, specifically. I think if the leaders made a rush for him all they would receive is death. The endless armies of the Scourge were organized to strengthen us to make us formidable champions to guarantee the fall of Azeroth. But if the main obstacles to that entire operation were to arrive to him at the seat of his power, surrounded by his endless forces, I think that's the kind of situation he has to go all in and pull everything back to destroy them -- which we know from Legion, they can't deal with endless numbers like that. I can't imagine with even Tirion fearing the endless armies of the Scourge washing over Azeroth after the Lich King's initial defeat that there would be anything he or the leaders could do about those forces if they had immediately turned on all of them like they would if they were the ones storming his seat of power. It had to be us, or he wouldn't have been so arrogant. In that kind of situation, where all the leaders are slain either by the endless forces or by Arthas unleashing the fury of Frostmourne, I don't think he would gloat over Tirion in the same way. Tirion would instead be targeted by waves of undead or more likely himself to be killed on priority instead of having any chance at reversal.

[Shedaar]

It has been specified multiple times that LK wasn't that strong himself.
His armies are what made him powerful.
Malfurion alone is a god-level guy. If you add Tyrande to the mix it's like super-strong power couple.
Not mentioning Velen.
Other leaders are meh, except maybe Lor'Themar/Rommath if they know some strong juju or maybe Vol'Jin with some loa voodoo.

[darkoms]

Jaina and Sylvanas could hold him back in the ICC for a while (even if he was just playing with them), so add Malfurion, Tyrande, Velen, Thrall to them (he may not be as strong during the Wotlk as in Cataclysm, but he still the strongest shaman) and Vol'jin (okay, he may not be very strong, but I think his connection with Bwonsamdi could help counter the power of Death of the Lich King) and Arthas will be destroyed. The rest of the leaders are just a nice addition.

Regarding your last question. Arthas is weaker than Lei Shen. Any Aspect can win with incredible ease. If all the Aspects immediately decide to kill him, he literally cannot do anything.

[Kyphael]

No. First of all, Garrosh, the highest DPS on the Horde side would rush ahead of Cairne, the tank, and cause a wipe. After Thrall was done resurrecting everyone, and they warned Garrosh that if he doesn't let Cairne pull, they'll kick him out of the Horde, Cairne would make a proper pull. The fight would start off well with Garrosh doing high DPS, and then he'd die to Defile. Garrosh would then spend the remainder of the fight calling Sylvanas and Lor'themar retards and saying their DPS is too low and that he needs a battle res. Thrall orders Garrosh battle ressed, and Garrosh gets carried off the edge by a Val'kyr, prompting Garrosh to call Sylvanas and Lor'themar huntards. Arthas finally wipes the whole raid, and everyone releases while he is giving his RP speech and resurrecting them.

[Powerogue]

I mean that totals 10+ Hero Characters, and we were only on Hero Character tier as of Legion with our artifact weapons, I'd think they'd manage.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Regarding your last question. Arthas is weaker than Lei Shen.

And Lei Shen was, at the height of his power, someone who took the power of the Forge of Origination to his face and was killed but not destroyed by it. Lei Shen is likely a fair bit above almost all of the villains we've faced when he was at the height of his power.

[darkoms]

And Lei Shen was, at the height of his power, someone who took the power of the Forge of Origination to his face and was killed but not destroyed by it. Lei Shen is likely a fair bit above almost all of the villains we've faced when he was at the height of his power.

What do you mean was killed, but not destroyed? What did you expect? Complete annihilation? We don't even know exactly how the Tol'virs set it up. He died. It's enough. Lei Shen fought Xuen for 30 days. 30 days to defeat one of the strongest wild gods. Archimonde did it in a few minutes (although he was wounded). Do you think Lei Shen is stronger than Archimonde? Deathwing (who will eat any wild god for breakfast)? You just said it to make your beloved Arthas (and we already argued on another topic and found out that you adore the Scourge and the Lich King) to look stronger.

[Magical Mudcrab]

What do you mean was killed, but not destroyed? What did you expect? Complete annihilation? We don't even know exactly how the Tol'virs set it up. He died. It's enough. Lei Shen fought Xuen for 30 days. 30 days to defeat one of the strongest wild gods. Archimonde did it in a few minutes (although he was wounded). Do you think Lei Shen is stronger than Archimonde? Deathwing (who will eat any wild god for breakfast)? You just said it to make your beloved Arthas (and we already argued on another topic and found out that you adore the Scourge and the Lich King) to look stronger.

I will never understand your incredibly deranged attempts at undermining every topic by making it a passive aggressive war about how powerful the Lich King is while failing to use examples from other threads through mischaracterization, especially considering you are banned for doing so regularly.

No, I'm not saying that Arthas could do something like defeat Archimonde, nor that Lei Shen is some insanely powerful entity that could beat up a Titan. All I'm saying is that Lei Shen was, himself, very powerful at the height of his power. The fact that his body could survive the Forge of Origination, when this is a power that was capable of annihilating entire armies, was integral in the destruction of N'zoth, and was able to do irreversible damage to the areas of Uldum and Tanaris shows that he was incredibly durable and speaks to how strong he was. Saying "Arthas is weaker than Lei Shen" has very little descriptive value because the amount of things weaker than Lei Shen is huge.

[Mehrunes]

Everyone except Malfurion/Tyrande/Velen would be a dead weight, those 3 would defeat Arthas np if they would properly use their power

Velen's biggest achievement in terms of combat is smacking some random demon and pre-Night Warrior Tyrande without Elune babysitting her at the given moment (which is most of the moments) nearly died from random Orc archers. Actually, scratch the pre-Night part. Night Warrior Tyrande's greatest feat is killing a guy that taunted her to kill her because he wanted to get a shortcut to the Shadowlands.

People forget that Tyrande and Malfurion can literally solo entire armies (Sylvanas and Saurfang even acknowledged that if both of them were fighting the Horde, then they would have single-handedly won the War of Thorns for the Alliance), while Velen is so smart and brilliant that he led Argus alongside Archimonde and Kil'jaeden.

They acknowledged no such thing. What Saurfang thought about them was that maybe they'd manage to stall the Horde long enough for Alliance to send reinforcements.

[darkoms]

I will never understand your incredibly deranged attempts at undermining every topic by making it a passive aggressive war about how powerful the Lich King is while failing to use examples from other threads through mischaracterization, especially considering you are banned for doing so regularly.

No, I'm not saying that Arthas could do something like defeat Archimonde, nor that Lei Shen is some insanely powerful entity that could beat up a Titan. All I'm saying is that Lei Shen was, himself, very powerful at the height of his power. The fact that his body could survive the Forge of Origination, when this is a power that was capable of annihilating entire armies, was integral in the destruction of N'zoth, and was able to do irreversible damage to the areas of Uldum and Tanaris shows that he was incredibly durable and speaks to how strong he was. Saying "Arthas is weaker than Lei Shen" has very little descriptive value because the amount of things weaker than Lei Shen is huge.

This theme is literally created in order to find out how powerful the Lich King is. Here author asked if the Aspects could defeat him and I said that even if Lei Shen can, then the Aspect (and even more so all the Aspects at once) will do it incredibly easily. However, you decided to protect your god and tell us that Lei Shen is some kind of uber strong being. Apparently you did this to keep the Lich King looking super strong, even if he is weaker than Lei Shen.

Since when is durablity= power? Where did you get the idea that the Forge of Origination was obliged to destroy his body? Nzoth was destroyed in Ny'alotha, the pocket dimension, and it was a beam created with the power of the Heart of Azeroth, the Forge of Origination, and the Engine of Nalak'sha. It was one specific directional beam, not an AOE ability as was the case with Lei Shen.
I don’t understand why you even then said about Lei Shen’s coolness? He is far from the most powerful villain He is only a Mogu, who stole the powers of the WEAKEN Keeper (all Keepers lost most of their powers after the ordering of Azeroth), and also received the soul of Aman'hTul. Tyr, originally the strongest of the Keeper and the one who received the soul of Agrammar (most likely) could not defeat even the two C'tharxxi. He was able to sacrifice his life to kill one and severely injure the other, but was unable to defeat them in a direct battle. And yet Tyr had the body of a Keeper, not just a mogu.
So yes, any Aspect will defeat Lei Shen and even more so the Lich King. Do you disagree with this or what? I don't know how many things are weaker than Lei Shen, but the Aspects are not exactly one of those things.

If that's any consolation to you, the Lich King is named one of the most powerful creatures in the history of the world in the Chronicles. Only this is a very vague concept. Is the Lich King in the top 30? Probably yes. He is stronger than millions of common people or even some heroes like Jaina or Thrall (or even Malfurion). But he is still weaker than Lei Shen, Aspects, Elemental Lords, Azshara and so on.

[Mehrunes]

Arthas wanted to mold us, specifically. I think if the leaders made a rush for him all they would receive is death. The endless armies of the Scourge were organized to strengthen us to make us formidable champions to guarantee the fall of Azeroth. But if the main obstacles to that entire operation were to arrive to him at the seat of his power, surrounded by his endless forces, I think that's the kind of situation he has to go all in and pull everything back to destroy them -- which we know from Legion, they can't deal with endless numbers like that. I can't imagine with even Tirion fearing the endless armies of the Scourge washing over Azeroth after the Lich King's initial defeat that there would be anything he or the leaders could do about those forces if they had immediately turned on all of them like they would if they were the ones storming his seat of power. It had to be us, or he wouldn't have been so arrogant. In that kind of situation, where all the leaders are slain either by the endless forces or by Arthas unleashing the fury of Frostmourne, I don't think he would gloat over Tirion in the same way. Tirion would instead be targeted by waves of undead or more likely himself to be killed on priority instead of having any chance at reversal.

This is a good point. While I don't see the Lich King as some pinnacle of power 1 on 1 (or even 1 on a small force) like some posters, it's important to note that he was still fighting us on his terms, because somehow everything went according to his "brilliant" plan. Had that not been the case he'd likely reconsider his strategy and would have fought the assailing force with much more backup than a bunch of ghouls and an occasional Val'kyr.

[Tanaria]

It goes without saying, that the faction leaders at the time, could easily have taken on and defeated Arthas.
As mentioned, Tyrande, Malfurion and Velen are almost demi-gods.

Now, with the current line up, along with the changes that happened.

He'd easily get smoked.
Alliance:
Tyrande as Night Warrior
Alleria and Umbric with Void powers
Velen, Turaylon and Anduin as Holy Light entities

Horde:
Sylvanas with the Jailor's powers (Yes, I know she's not Horde, but she's had these powers since Cata.)
Thalyssra with her Arcane powers
Talanji with her Priestess of Bwonsamdi powers
Rokhan with his Shadow Hunter skills

I think the alliance have the edge, as Thrall was heavily nerfed in Legion and the other actual leaders are average Warriors and Hunters.
I haven't included the likes of Lady Liadrin, Zekhan and Rommath

[darkoms]

It goes without saying, that the faction leaders at the time, could easily have taken on and defeated Arthas.
As mentioned, Tyrande, Malfurion and Velen are almost demi-gods.

Now, with the current line up, along with the changes that happened.

He'd easily get smoked.
Alliance:
Tyrande as Night Warrior
Alleria and Umbric with Void powers
Velen, Turaylon and Anduin as Holy Light entities

Horde:
Sylvanas with the Jailor's powers (Yes, I know she's not Horde, but she's had these powers since Cata.)
Thalyssra with her Arcane powers
Talanji with her Priestess of Bwonsamdi powers
Rokhan with his Shadow Hunter skills

I think the alliance have the edge, as Thrall was heavily nerfed in Legion and the other actual leaders are average Warriors and Hunters.
I haven't included the likes of Lady Liadrin, Zekhan and Rommath

You forgot to mention Malfurion at the Alliance.

[tommyhil622]

Trying to understand the point of the thread if you setup the Lich King with an unwinnable scenario?

[deenman]

Jaina and Sylvanas could hold him back in the ICC for a while (even if he was just playing with them), so add Malfurion, Tyrande, Velen, Thrall to them (he may not be as strong during the Wotlk as in Cataclysm, but he still the strongest shaman) and Vol'jin (okay, he may not be very strong, but I think his connection with Bwonsamdi could help counter the power of Death of the Lich King) and Arthas will be destroyed. The rest of the leaders are just a nice addition.

Regarding your last question. Arthas is weaker than Lei Shen. Any Aspect can win with incredible ease. If all the Aspects immediately decide to kill him, he literally cannot do anything.

but we fight lei shen and kill him normaly,meanwile arthas is just messing with us and 1 shots us,was lei shen in the raid after resurection much weaker than his previous life?

- - - Updated - - -

you could even add illidan on aliance side as he would proly do whatever tyrande asks

kalegos is or was jainas bf,and we know the dragons worked more directly with aliance in the past

all the strong mages like khadgar are basicaly aliance

argent dawn and all the paladin orders core is mostly aliance

horde has loa's but aliance have wild gods

turalyon and army of light

honestly...why is this even a thing?why did blizz give aliance basicaly a bunch of godlike leaders?

horde had thrall being pretty strong,but mostly due to dragons empowering him and then he got nerfed harder than anyone

sylvanas got strong and then she yeeted out

also in wod and legion the racial leaders in the front were all basicaly aliance...

[Mehrunes]

but we fight lei shen and kill him normaly,meanwile arthas is just messing with us and 1 shots us,was lei shen in the raid after resurection much weaker than his previous life?

Given how Blizzard officially stated that Lei Shen overall was stronger than Arthas 1v1, it's safe to assume he was indeed not up to full power after getting resurrected.