So, what do you think of the loot change in Shadowlands regarding m+?

[Voidwielder]

I mean that sucks for your rng, but shouldn't people who can commit to a schedule and organize 10-30 ppl get more loot than someone that can jump on, join a group of 5 in 5 minutes, and bust out a 30 min repeatable instance? I am not 10/10 hc either so I feel you but I've accepted why my ilvl is lower.

I would say that doing a 13-14 in a pug is far more difficult than having a guild run in a HC setting that gets 10/10 within a reset. And not only once, but over and over and over again. With success for loot to be there at all. And that loot, by the way, is lower than HC gear.

I am fine with M raiders having the top of the top but the middle-tier bracket of 12-14 key puggers and somehow HC commited raiders is... not having a good time.

Just did another Mists 12. I'm richer by 35 more Anima!

M10 loot is comparable to normal Castle. As a healer, M10 is far more stressful and difficult than normal, unless it's 2/2/6 with some fuckawful comp. You can brute force normal Castle just by sheer group size.

[Rageonit]

I would say that doing a 13-14 in a pug is far more difficult than having a guild run in a HC setting that gets 10/10 within a reset. And not only once, but over and over and over again. With success for loot to be there at all. And that loot, by the way, is lower than HC gear.
I am fine with M raiders having the top of the top but the middle-tier bracket of 12-14 key puggers and somehow HC commited raiders is... not having a good time.
Just did another Mists 12. I'm richer by 35 more Anima!

Here's a thought. Blizzard wanted to curb M+ spamming by reducing the quantity of loot and also its item level. The main reward right now is the Vault - which can drop you higher ilvl than heroic raid does.

Under current circumstances, running a specific dungeon for a specific item seems counter-productive. I mean, you can do it, but prepare for the long run. And I'm sure this is by design. You can't spam raids, so why should you be able to spam M+ for even greater reward? Problem is, the nature of M+ requires a certain level of spamming, by design also. So Blizz decided to stand somewhere in between. You still CAN loot that trinket if you want, but it will take more time. Side effect: you can't reasonably expect to have every BiS you want. Some slots, you will be running sub-par items for a while.

But this is nothng new, mind you. In the past, people have finished entire expansions without getting an item they really, really wanted. Sadly, then came Legion and completely changed mentality, by offering items in spades (combined with TF, so getting the "Best BiS" was still time consuming and even more prone to RNG). Was it a good decision to overturn that design? Well, from player perspectve, answers will wary. I'm completely fine with it. From Blizz perspective... numbers will tell But no, 80-90% players are not quitting, contrary to what some seem to think

[chiddie]

Hahaha oh wow. I knew it was going to happen. I keep hearing that from ingame people as well.
Turns out TF wasn't so bad after all?

TF was bad as well. It’s not that it HAS to be TF or this system, you know.

How about loot being as it was in BfA but without TF?

Why we are still stuck after 16 years with this Vanilla mentality “you gotta take ages to gear up”?

[Lefrog]

Here's a thought. Blizzard wanted to curb M+ spamming by reducing the quantity of loot and also its item level. The main reward right now is the Vault - which can drop you higher ilvl than heroic raid does.

This. It's kind of hard to adjust tbh, but gearing for an average raider like me (a few mythic raid bosses on farm at the very end of season) will mainly be done by raiding heroic and the vault. The vault ensures that I will complete at least 10 mythic+ at the highest level that I can do a week tho to ensure I consistently get a good upgrade every week from it. This is a step up from time played, since outside of the first two weeks of spamming high keys in BFA, I usually only did 1 key a week for the weekly chest.

The best thing about this new system for me is that even towards the middle/end of the tier I will still probably be able to get upgrades from the vault instead of trying to TF/Socket gear that I've seen drop 100 times.

[Mardux]

I love it. Gear matters more now. This is absolutely good change.

How does it mean more? Its still gear with shit stats most of which is turned into 40-60 gold (if blizzard even allows you to sell it) or turned into a couple of enchanting mats (of blizzard even allows you to DE it). The only real difference is theres less gear to be shit.

[chiddie]

Something tells me you started playing the game in Legion or later.

The point of MMOs used to be that it took you a while to earn your full set of BIS gear. You weren't supposed to get them in 1-3 raid runs. Since Legion, Blizz has been shitting epics out at everyone at mach 5 speed. Gear is just pointless at this point.

Yea, it feels like it's sooooo slowwww now. But that's because we've come off the sugar high that Legion and BFA had us accustomed to.

BIS items gaining would be slow anyways. I just can’t understand why I gotta run countless M+ to get no BiS and no no BiS at all.

I don’t care about BiS at all, just let me raise my ilvl without taking ages. Let’s remember that in 6?months this near to max ilvl will become near to useless again.

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How does it mean more? Its still gear with shit stats most of which is turned into 40-60 gold (if blizzard even allows you to sell it) or turned into a couple of enchanting mats (of blizzard even allows you to DE it). The only real difference is theres less gear to be shit.

I have yet to understand after all these years why less gear means meaningful gear. It simply means... less gear and that’s all. It would be remotely acceptable with a token system where in the end I can choose my gear but since it’s still random even when you drop it, there’s no meaning in this starvation. It only rewards people that play 4-5 hours a day minimum, I thought that this crappy business model was gone ages ago.

[froschhure]

What i want to see:

Adjusting SL to be on pair with Legion/Bfa :

Not in time runs have to give as much loot as untimed runs. (<-Prevents leaver in your keys)

Bonusroll need to get back into the game <-(Many people only get loot through this because of personal loot)

Titanforging needs to get polished <-(No Forging on weapons and rings)

The great Vault should offer more than a single piece of loot <-(Players should not be "force designed" to buy EQ from the auction house only to be able to do mythic raiding content) [Helping with WoW gap between wealthy and poor]

These Changes were QoL Changes in Legion and BFA and it felt right and advanced. Like retail should be. Advancing and not degenerating.

and it is not fair at all, that "mythic raiding" is again designed to be the "best content" which it clearly is not. If you like to be in a group with up to 20 people, grats for you. but Pvpers and M+ers also deserve the maximum credit for what they do.

[trapmaster]

loot change is what blizzard want you to stay subbed longer cuz hurr hurr we will do anything to gain that loot or worrying over about the loot. This is just fucking sad man. Mythic+ in bfa was too generous for loots but i'm glad it got nerfed.

[Lefrog]

and it is not fair at all, that "mythic raiding" is again designed to be the "best content" which it clearly is not. If you like to be in a group with up to 20 people, grats for you. but Pvpers and M+ers also deserve the maximum credit for what they do.

Raiding gear was never better because it was harder, it was better because at least it's gated. This xpac, you can get mythic raid equivalent pvp gear, but it is also gated through conquest points caps. Mythic+ also offers time gated gear through the vault (I know they added raiding/pvp options to the vault to make it even easier to gear).

On average a mythic player should be getting 1 piece of mythic raid gear, 1 piece of mythic+ vault gear, and 1 piece of conquest gear a week. All equal.

Edit: this is the same philosophy that has renown, torghast, everything else gated this xpac. Legion and BFA were clearly diablo style "you get all the good gear right away, but you gotta grind like crazy for all the BiS optimal gear." Now it's more of like old WoW where "you'll eventually get better gear, but it just takes a while and there's no way to brute force it"

[kaminaris]

Well I think I actually gave it some thought. I play this game since release, so I had some time to think about this and that - I just don't agree with you and by the tone of your posts I'm assuming that if somebody doesn't agrees with your POV, he "didn't give it a second thought". Sorry, but I'm not your average newb who started playing in BFA and complains about drop rates in SL.

As for content being easier back then - in what respect? And in what context? In the context of today's player skill? Sure. In the context of player skill back then? Hell no. Even NAVIGATING the dungeons could give people headache back then. Just like dodging basic mechanics. No, time investment is a better measure, from my perspective. You had to invest a lot more time to do a BRD run than you have to invest now to do a couple M+ runs, difficulty level nothwithstanding. And you could get shit all from a 2h 5-man instance. Yes, 2h. People clear normal raids nowadays in 2h. Or are you arguing we should get more rewards now, because fights have more mechanics, even though most people are better at dodging them nowadays? Like, I don't know, a medal for accomplishments? Heh.

Seems like you didn't give it a thought after all. Maybe in vanilla average level of players was worse, that doesn't mean content was hard. I know people who played since closed beta, played with them thruout MoP and WoD. Difficulty was myth. Up until MoP actually, overall difficulty was lower so that players back then, clearing heroic (when mythic didn't exist) in 3 months, struggled in finishing mythic later tiers in WoD in time. Not to mention M+ didn't exist so you had similar situation to what Wotlk had. You know, master loot, group loot, bonus rools/badges, fairly powerful crafted gear.

Sorry, but I call bullshit. Weekly event reward is 213 AFAIR, and you have to do 4 m0 for that. If you have half decent gear, you storm through m0. I do 6s and 7s right now on my resto sham and he is 183 (got it from heroics, some BoEs and a world boss drop). Same for the Vault. Doing a 10 is not a HUGE accomplishment and it rewards higher ilvl than heroic raid. You can do 5 or 6 easily and get a single 213. FOR A SINGLE RUN! Sure, Vault can screw you over too, but it's a huge upgrade over BfA anyway. Just do a few runs more for bigger selection of items. World boss can drop 207 and all you need to do is tag it and die. Hard much? There's a steady influx of items every week. Slower than BfA, granted, but let me repeat: WE ARE MONTH INTO THE EXPANSION. Just look at the context. My guildie complaining about not getting his LAST raid upgrade is still in for half a year of this patch. Lawl. But no, gimme gimme gimme NOW!!!11!!

WEEKLY, WEEKLY, WEEKLY, dude. Stop. We no longer have just basic dungeons like in MoP. 15 is the gear limit now, which is artificially limited by weekly shit. With no subsystem to offset bad luck.
How about i get my loot from activities I do, instead of weekly bingo lottery?

No, I have a different opinion. You should start working on your social skills by accepting that people have different opinions. There's no single big picture. You have different expectations than I do, but there's no magic formula for quantity of loot that should drop any given week. I'm happy with what I get.

There is no opinions here, just simple fact. There is no system to avoid or counter bad luck. And such system is shit. Has never been the case in entire history of wow.

EDIT: Oh, and don't get me started on Master Looter in vanilla and PUGs trying to ninja every single item that dropped, even if they didn't need xD But from time perspective, fun times, I give you that. Newsflash: Beaststalker was a CLASS set, so Master Looter meant shit all. It just had to drop for me. And some items were very reluctant to drop, for some reason... But yeah, rose tinted glasses and all that, vanilla was miles better, yadda yadda. It probably took more time back then to get into BRD on foot than it does now to list yourself in LFG, do a m+ with randoms and just wait for a tasty reward from the Vault on Wed morning. Well Im exaggerating, time investment was probably comparable.

Yeah cool story dude but you had guilds, nobody is even talking about pugging raids. Even being in fair guild can leave you with no upgrades at all.

EDIT2: Plus, I totally forgot. Crafting's still there. You know that you can craft yourself a 235 item, right? Some of my guildies already have a 235 BiS. And you get that by doing... single player content. That was nerfed to the ground just recently. But ye, we don't get items fast enough!

That is one item, that usually is just one of 2 slots.

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What issues?

Loot isn't handed out to you left and right. Weapons are meant to be scarce from raids. This is a good thing. Slows down the pace a little bit, that way people are in lower end content longer for those who usually lag behind.

Only thing I'll say is Torghast needs to have a loot system put in place.

Oh maybe those issues that there is no way to offset bad luck in any way or maybe those issues that if rng screws you over nothing can help you with that, oh and maybe the issue that actual content isn't rewarding and you are only getting tickets for weekly bingo lottery, or maybe those issues that weekly bingo lottery has much much better gear than content, oh an maybe the issues that you won't be able to trade loot for quite some time, or maybe those issues that guilds have no way to help out their raiders if they got bad luck in some some slots, oh an maybe those issues that professions are crap?

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TF was bad as well. It’s not that it HAS to be TF or this system, you know.

How about loot being as it was in BfA but without TF?

Why we are still stuck after 16 years with this Vanilla mentality “you gotta take ages to gear up”?

Because it was obvious it will be like this, no one in a right mind thought that blizzard will make static gearing system with same frequency as it was with TF.

[froschhure]

Raiding gear was never better because it was harder, it was better because at least it's gated. This xpac, you can get mythic raid equivalent pvp gear, but it is also gated through conquest points caps. Mythic+ also offers time gated gear through the vault (I know they added raiding/pvp options to the vault to make it even easier to gear).

On average a mythic player should be getting 1 piece of mythic raid gear, 1 piece of mythic+ vault gear, and 1 piece of conquest gear a week. All equal.

Edit: this is the same philosophy that has renown, torghast, everything else gated this xpac. Legion and BFA were clearly diablo style "you get all the good gear right away, but you gotta grind like crazy for all the BiS optimal gear." Now it's more of like old WoW where "you'll eventually get better gear, but it just takes a while and there's no way to brute force it"

quick no. to all you said i disagree
and why you quote me when it has nothing to do with what i wrote. please don't misuse my words, you just made something completly different out of the things i stated.

[Lefrog]

quick no. to all you said i disagree
and why you quote me when it has nothing to do with what i wrote. please don't misuse my words, you just made something completly different out of the things i stated.

How are PVPers and M+ people not getting maximum credit? They are being awarded the very same ilvl gear at roughly the exact same gated drop rate...

[Rageonit]

Seems like you didn't give it a thought after all. Maybe in vanilla average level of players was worse, that doesn't mean content was hard.

I just tried to explain that time investment is a better measure than difficulty, and I'm still hearing the same broken record.
Here's a fact: difficulty is subjective. Time is not. What is hard for me and for you and for an average player, may differ. But for me, for you and for any average player, 1 hour is always 1 hour. You had to invest a lot more time in vanilla to gear up - and if you don't agree, than clearly you didn't play it. What does difficulty change for me, if I could finish content back then as well as I'm doing it right now? How can I even gauge if it was easier for me to do a dungeon back then than it is right now? I can't, I'm not even the same player anymore. So, rose tinted glasses again? Plus, difficulty is not only mechanics. Getting to a 40 man raid was a hurdle in itself. IIRC, my realm had 3 or 4 guilds that have cleared BWL (I was lucky to be in one) - but it was easier to gear up back then? If you really think so, it just means you weren't there. For vast, VAST majority of players it was a lot harder. Maybe your friends didn't notice they are not the only people on their realm?

WEEKLY, WEEKLY, WEEKLY, dude. Stop. We no longer have just basic dungeons like in MoP. 15 is the gear limit now, which is artificially limited by weekly shit. With no subsystem to offset bad luck [...] How about i get my loot from activities I do, instead of weekly bingo lottery?

The WEEKLY thing, "dude", is exactly what you're asking for. A form of system to offset bad luck. Many of those are GUARANTEED drops and you can even invest your time to reduce RNG by getting a bigger selection of items. And don't pretend items in raids and M+ don't drop. They do, only in smaller quantities. Because of that, people are still not geared up A MONTH AFTER LAUNCH, so rarely they can trade drops. But in a few weeks, those more lucky in a raid will be able to give items to those less lucky. But no, give it to me now, now, NOW! Like I've said, that's a mentality problem. All your guildies will gear up sooner or later - the only difference is, the pace is slower.

There is no opinions here, just simple fact. There is no system to avoid or counter bad luck. And such system is shit. Has never been the case in entire history of wow.

Not true, but I guess you wouldn't know.

[callipygoustp]

I don't mind it. It was pretty nice being able to choose between 7 different pieces of loot from the vault. The only bummer was that two of the pieces were REALLY nice upgrades for my resto druid. C'est la vie, better than only one option that absolutely sucked.

Would I like to see loot more regularly? Sure. But, second week in a row where the loot options from the Great Vault contained multiple items that were GREAT items and the only bummer being that I had to choose between them.

The scarcity of drops in dungeons/raids may be a bit of a downer, though in general I don't really mind, but the new vault system is fucking awesome.

[Halfaheart]

Haven't had any issue with the loot so far. I get anywhere from 1-3 new pieces a week that are upgrades then maybe 1-2 items that I can give out to roll on. Feels good to me. I'd rather have things to chase for a few months than be BIS now and give up on the game I enjoy playing

[Twdft]

Players in 184 don't deserve to be doing 10s. They deserve to be doing 3s. Just because multiple people have said a thing doesn't mean it is right. Multiple people here are wrong. People are just being too greedy and expect to be carried through content. No jimmy. I am not taking you in my 7 run. 184 ilvl is not going to cut it.

I was replying to a guy who said just do 10s or 7s if 10s are too hard.

Question is with what loot you're gonna do that. 184 is easy enough but unless you grind m+ with preferably an armor stack group a LOT of players who do like 2 dungeons every couple days will be stuck at 184. What took weeks in BfA will take months in SL and those stuck are the mahjority, paying the bills, and perhaps just unsbbing because they don't see any progress in an acceptable timeframe.

Loot reduction isn't a problem for those of us who grind it, but it is disheartening for more casual players.

[Depakote]

*best

Just because you are bad while people like you pull less than the healer and have mental breakdowns whenever there is a timer involved doesn't mean m+ is bad.

Casuals who play 2 hours a week DO NOT deserve loot falling from the sky. Go play diablo.

Funny thing is i play a healer. I don't que for mythic + because i dislike the gogogo mentality but whatever, you're banned anyway.

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They really need to bring back badges or some form of currency along those lines so it doesn’t feel like such a waste of time when you don’t get loot.

They could add a ton of cosmetics and stuff to it to so it’s still relevant long after you have all the gear.

This was honestly the best way to gear up, spam heroic dungeons, grind badges of justice/valor and buy the gear you wanted. Why they moved away from it I have no idea.

[kaminaris]

Not true, but I guess you wouldn't know.

Dude, tell me, which expansion didn't have ANY kind of bad luck protection or alternatives.

[Rageonit]

Dude, tell me, which expansion didn't have ANY kind of bad luck protection or alternatives.

There's no point. In your mind, vanilla had one in the form of amazing crafting (which is simply silly). You claim it was easier to gear up back then, even though it was the time of greatest item disparity between players, and those that were able to get raiding sets were gawked at in Orgrimmar and Stormwind. You clearly know very little about that time. It's easy to gear up in SL, compared to many expansions of WoW's life. If you don't see it, you're delusional or don't play the game for very long. Gearing up in SL is slower than in BfA, but it's not difficult at all (or time consuming, while we're at it). And if somebody chooses to run single dungeon fifty times to get a very specific item, well that's his choice. Nothing I haven't seen, and I've seen people who couldn't get their beloved item thorough entire expansions.

[kaminaris]

There's no point. In your mind, vanilla had one in the form of amazing crafting (which is simply silly). You claim it was easier to gear up back then, even though it was the time of greatest item disparity between players, and those that were able to get raiding sets were gawked at in Orgrimmar and Stormwind. You clearly know very little about that time. It's easy to gear up in SL, compared to many expansions of WoW's life. If you don't see it, you're delusional or don't play the game for very long. Gearing up in SL is slower than in BfA, but it's not difficult at all (or time consuming, while we're at it). And if somebody chooses to run single dungeon fifty times to get a very specific item, well that's his choice. Nothing I haven't seen, and I've seen people who couldn't get their beloved item thorough entire expansions.

Because it doesn't exist and you still don't understand implication of having master loot or not.
And you still don't understand that gear didn't matter back then as it matters now.
And you still don't get that good crafted gear is also a huge factor as opposed to garbage that is relevant only first day.