Do you believe that Garrosh should have been killed? Was Tyrande or Baine right?

[geco]

WoW's moral judgment is the most void of all morals. They just look at the killer and completely forget about the victim.
When you let a killer loose out of mercy. You are returning to punish their victims.
Besides there is a theme. A trial is to find out if someone is guilty. But in this case it is already known that if.


To give an example:
Every time Anduin forgives the Horde he stains his hands with the blood of the alliance that the Horde will shed again. He spits on the graves of those who died to stop the Horde.
With the peace treaty without claiming anything. Anduin did nothing but insult all the Kaldorei killed in Teldrazzil.

[Knight Meta]

War Crimes is the only Warcraft book I bought myself (Gotten some others as a gift) for the single reason that; Once I realized Garrosh was going to be relevant in WoD due to his appearance in the WoD Cinematic - I just had to know why and how on Azeroth they would pull this absolute mess of a character back into relevance when he should have been left back in Outland.

I belive Garrosh should have been outright killed. And I base this reason not just on that I mostly do agree with Tyrande and Thrall's viewpoints, but also because as a character he deserved to be axed. Garrosh is Blizzard's worst written "major lore character" and no one in the world can make me think otherwise. The only defining characteristic about him which is based in something other than "Angry semi-racist war hungry Orc" is that he is basically "Daddy issues" taken as far as you can with the father being dead.

Garrosh is mad and most likely sad because his father betrayed the OG Horde and as a result; he now has all the reason he needs (According to whoever TF writes the WoW Lore) to just be a rampaging madman who only approves of those that votes yes when the question is "Should we go to war" Any supposed depth this character has is so shallow in reality that it is stupid. The biggest proof of this is how; If you look at how Garrosh is handled in the sourcebooks he is in as well as any scenario in WoW where Blizz WANTS you to take him seriously; you can see his propper side - Then people point to the infamous Questline in Stonetalon Mountains where he kills a fellow Orc for ordering the bombing of a home filled with innocent Night Elfs <- This here is proof of that quest designers and lore writers rather:

Do not communicate well when making this game, or

The Lore staff had them plop this in just to make Garrosh "seem" more like a nice guy. It's basically a botched PR stunt to make Garrosh look better.

Grom was to many; hailed as a Hero. This is glossed over so that Garrosh has a reason to be mad. People defend Garrosh by pointing to Stonetalon but completely ignore the bomb he dropped on Theramore.

This character should have remained a quest giver in Nagrand back in Outland, and that's really it. But because someone over at Blizz had the idèa to make a complete joke out of Hellscream's son; he should at least have been given a propper death in War Crimes.

Now I am just waiting for them to give him a "redemption arc" in Shadowlands which will be like replacing the cherry on top of the already spoiled cake with a litteral turd.

[Houle]

He was a fool who dabbled in powers he could not comprehend, and as a result of his incompetence Azeroth almost fell to Y'Shaarj. He can rot in Hell.

completely wrong. the writers confirmed multiple times that garrosh was in full control of the heart and his power the entire time. even in the last stage of the fight, he was fully himself, unlike deathwing or cho'gall.
seems like garrosh is somewhat good at resisting void influence, even without the oh-so-famed locus-walker :P

[Dagoth Ur]

completely wrong. the writers confirmed multiple times that garrosh was in full control of the heart and his power the entire time. even in the last stage of the fight, he was fully himself, unlike deathwing or cho'gall.
seems like garrosh is somewhat good at resisting void influence, even without the oh-so-famed locus-walker :P

We're talking about the dude who is so angry he's single handlely solving local anima draughts. Our warchief is so determiend I wouldn't be surprised he flipped the table on the void and in the end he was the one who actually did the whispering.

True warchief is the only one who can give the Void a lesson in pointlessness.

[Soon-TM]

Besides there is a theme. A trial is to find out if someone is guilty. But in this case it is already known that if.`

In that case, the trial was completely unnecessary.

Every time Anduin forgives the Horde he stains his hands with the blood of the alliance that the Horde will shed again. He spits on the graves of those who died to stop the Horde.

Indeed. What else could he have done, though? Many Ally fans want their faction to be the knights in shining armour, who can do no wrong and steamroll anyone in their path. The problem is that in a faction war, you can't do the latter due to fundamental gameplay reasons. Thus you are stuck with the shining armour and can do no wrong parts, but you simply can't walk all over the Horde like you are used to every time where we fight the big bads, whether it was the LK, the Legion or some tentacle boi. That's why you guys are stuck with Anduin, aka the knight in shining armour who can do no wrong, but doesn't (or rather cannot) walk all over the Horde, not even close. Anduin is there out of sheer necessity; the Alliance envisioned by many Ally fans without Anduin would be like the portail of a cathedral without a cross or other religious imagery.

[Alanar]

Should have made this post before WoD. We know Tyrande was right after all. However, I think he's not a dumb character. I believe he's one of the few chars who could benefit from Shadowlands. We know he's in Revendreth/Castle Nathria. Maybe he'll be released from being a nonstop anima machine after Denathrius' defeat.

We got the real price out wich was Kael, Garrosh.. I wouldn't even look for him

- - - Updated - - -

completely wrong. the writers confirmed multiple times that garrosh was in full control of the heart and his power the entire time. even in the last stage of the fight, he was fully himself, unlike deathwing or cho'gall.
seems like garrosh is somewhat good at resisting void influence, even without the oh-so-famed locus-walker :P

Yup he was in full control of hes actions and you are right.. he wasn't controlled and thus making him a true villain for choosing hes actions..

[Al Gorefiend]

I consider War Crimes a strange point in Warcraft's history where Golden tried to write herself a John Grisham using Warcraft characters.

It wasn't a horrible story, but it makes little contextual sense in a world where people can hire loot crazy hitmen to go murder their next-door neighbor because whispers made them crazy or something. Suddenly we expect Pandaria operates identically to a United States judicial system?

[geco]

Indeed. What else could he have done, though? Many Ally fans want their faction to be the knights in shining armour, who can do no wrong and steamroll anyone in their path. The problem is that in a faction war, you can't do the latter due to fundamental gameplay reasons. Thus you are stuck with the shining armour and can do no wrong parts, but you simply can't walk all over the Horde like you are used to every time where we fight the big bads, whether it was the LK, the Legion or some tentacle boi. That's why you guys are stuck with Anduin, aka the knight in shining armour who can do no wrong, but doesn't (or rather cannot) walk all over the Horde, not even close. Anduin is there out of sheer necessity; the Alliance envisioned by many Ally fans without Anduin would be like the portail of a cathedral without a cross or other religious imagery.

In truth, this logic has three flaws in my point of view.
1 By condemning a lot of innocents to die horrible deaths when the Horde strikes again what it will. And this is clearly evil.
2 Many alliances are high on this or being a knight in white armor or realize that it makes no sense to be a "knight in white armor who cannot defend anyone".
3 Yet Anduin failed as a pacifist in his peace treaty. He did not give any punishment or means to ensure that the Kaldoeri are attacked. I say simple things like demanding that the Horde leave their lands or that the "prisoners" be returned or even asking for a compensation hit.
Not to mention more complex things, making trade agreements or putting together a reason for the Horde not to attack.

Anduin trusts only in the good morals of all those who did not care exactly the same to make a genocide. Because we remember that the Horde was revealed by Baien preco and Jaina's brother. Teldrazzil didn't care.

[Soon-TM]

In truth, this logic has three flaws in my point of view.
1 By condemning a lot of innocents to die horrible deaths when the Horde strikes again what it will. And this is clearly evil.
2 Many alliances are high on this or being a knight in white armor or realize that it makes no sense to be a "knight in white armor who cannot defend anyone".
3 Yet Anduin failed as a pacifist in his peace treaty. He did not give any punishment or means to ensure that the Kaldoeri are attacked. I say simple things like demanding that the Horde leave their lands or that the "prisoners" be returned or even asking for a compensation hit.
Not to mention more complex things, making trade agreements or putting together a reason for the Horde not to attack.

Anduin trusts only in the good morals of all those who did not care exactly the same to make a genocide. Because we remember that the Horde was revealed by Baien preco and Jaina's brother. Teldrazzil didn't care.

That's all well and good, but given the amount of Anduin shills in these boards, I feel it for Ally players who want to be something other than a punching bag. Furthermore, writers are clearly catering to the self-righteous, all bark no bite type of Ally fan - and it blows.

[geco]

That's all well and good, but given the amount of Anduin shills in these boards, I feel it for Ally players who want to be something other than a punching bag. Furthermore, writers are clearly catering to the self-righteous, all bark no bite type of Ally fan - and it blows.

Let's be Ralsites they are heeding your simple and poor idea of Alliance "good" and Horde bad.
And slowly there are only the fans who agree with that idae.

[OwenBurton]

In truth, this logic has three flaws in my point of view.
1 By condemning a lot of innocents to die horrible deaths when the Horde strikes again what it will. And this is clearly evil.
2 Many alliances are high on this or being a knight in white armor or realize that it makes no sense to be a "knight in white armor who cannot defend anyone".
3 Yet Anduin failed as a pacifist in his peace treaty. He did not give any punishment or means to ensure that the Kaldoeri are attacked. I say simple things like demanding that the Horde leave their lands or that the "prisoners" be returned or even asking for a compensation hit.
Not to mention more complex things, making trade agreements or putting together a reason for the Horde not to attack.

Anduin trusts only in the good morals of all those who did not care exactly the same to make a genocide. Because we remember that the Horde was revealed by Baien preco and Jaina's brother. Teldrazzil didn't care.

He had little choice -- remember, even had the Alliance tried to continue the war, their resources would have very soon been depleted. And with every death, they empowered Sylvanas further. That being said, Sylvanas' statement - the boy-king has lied to his people that the conflict would soon be ended after the siege. And his statement about recovering Teldrassil -- which he failed to do apparently -- also counts as a lie.

[Varodoc]

"Yes, he should have been killed" is objectively the correct answer. Since Garrosh is indirectly responsible for the Third Legion Invasion, Fourth War, and Shadowlands. He foolishly set in motion the chain of events that would lead to all of these expansions.

Garrosh's malevolence goes even further than that. By travelling back in time, he created an alternate timeline, which shattered the time-space continuum. Had he never done that, there wouldn't have been a Legion invasion ushered in by Gul'dan, nor a Lightbound crusade led by Yrel. Garrosh's meddling with the domain of time is the root of all problems.

This is what happens when lowly mortals try to be more relevant than they're destined to. When they think they can actually defy the cosmos. Only a select few mortals can do that. The masses are just going to cause a big mess. Garrosh should've remained in that lurid wasteland Outland along with the other beasts he called family.

[twitchboy]

Vol'Jin should have killed him with a heart-piercing arrow. That would have been the most full-circle bad-assery ever.

"told ya, mon"

[Arikara]

This is what happens when lowly mortals try to be more relevant than they're destined to. When they think they can actually defy the cosmos.

Despite for once actually being right about the topic at hand, I'd like to point out this shining display of hypocrisy right here.

[Al Gorefiend]

Varian inadvertently doomed the lives of untold thousands when he blocked Thrall's execution.

Dead Garrosh = no WoD = no legion invasion = no sword of sargeras = no burned Teldrassil = no fourth war.

Varian should have consulted a Shaman or any of the hundred+ NPCs that claim to have visions of the future

[SirBeef]

Baine was right, but Garrosh was determined to lay waste so he had to be done. You catch more flies with honey and more often than not people can be rehabilitated. But Fuck Garry.

[Tarba]

Varian inadvertently doomed the lives of untold thousands when he blocked Thrall's execution.

Dead Garrosh = no WoD = no legion invasion = no sword of sargeras = no burned Teldrassil = no fourth war.

Varian should have consulted a Shaman or any of the hundred+ NPCs that claim to have visions of the future

Garrosh did not open a portal to an alternate timeline. A bronze dragon did helped by the hero. And the legion invasion is due to the heroes of azeroth deciding to free Guldan from the iron horde instead of killing him right away.
You can blame Garrosh for the iron Horde, the legion part is mostly on you.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Garrosh did not open a portal to an alternate timeline. A bronze dragon did helped by the hero. And the legion invasion is due to the heroes of azeroth deciding to free Guldan from the iron horde instead of killing him right away.

He didn't open the portal to Draenor but he did help form the Iron Horde and open a portal to Azeroth. And if you want to go further with Gul'dan then you can blame Grommash for not killing him after slaying Mannoroth.

[Maljinwo]

Vol'Jin should have killed him with a heart-piercing arrow. That would have been the most full-circle bad-assery ever.

I hoped that in WoD we had a fight between Varian and Garrosh during the final assault in Grommash'ar.

With Varian tired after fighting to get to him, Garrosh has the upper hand but before he can strike him down, an arrow appears in his chest.
Falling to his knees the orc looks around and sees Vol'jin, looking down on him.

He tries to stand up and run towards the troll but is beheaded/impaled by Varian




But no. We had both faction leaders go to Draenor and be like "Sure, build ships, whatevs"

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Vol'Jin should have killed him with a heart-piercing arrow. That would have been the most full-circle bad-assery ever.

With Shadowlands there's still a possibility for Vol'jin to follow through with his threat. I could see Blizzard doing that in patch Covenant questlines. Good reason to have Venthry and Night Fae quests mix since they didn't in 9.0's questline.