How Much Student Debt Should be Canceled?

[OwenBurton]

HOw much student debt would you cancel?

Now that Joe Biden’s win has been certified by the Electoral College, there's hope that debt relief could be on the way. Just a question of much is politically possible. Some portion of the record $1.6 trillion of U.S. student loans ould be forgiven.

President-elect Joe Biden proposed forgiving at least $10,000 of federal student loans per person under his Emergency Action Plan to Save the Economy, as COVID-19 cases set alarming records.
Democratic Sens. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) and Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) urged the next president to cancel up to $50,000 in student debt immediately, a proposal outgoing Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos recently called a “socialist takeover of higher education.”




$10,000 would help the largest class of borrowers. But $50,000 would be more life changing.
Biden should definitely listen to Schumer and use executive order to cancel $50K of student debt per person.

Ideally, all of the debt should be cancelled. But realistically, considerably less. That being said, the rate of higher education has become...considerable. Perhaps America should learn from Europe. Or even some parts of Latin America. They have been able to provide free education for many years now.

[Elegiac]

If they worked they would be paying off their loan...

Interest is a thing. Rofl.

I don't understand why the notion of paying back a loan you took out is seen with such venom... they made a choice to invest in themselves and to be brutally frank a student loan repayment system is extraordinary lax.

Because the loans were pushed on people as a basic requirement for social success and now it has resulted in a situation where a huge slice of the American consumer market is crippled with debt out the gate.

Your argument is as stupid as the “exploiting workers is okay because if they didn’t want to be exploited they should take a job elsewhere”.

The only thing you’re proving with that statement is you have no idea what the job market in the US actually looks like.

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A college isn't really for scholars but to learn a trade. University is more what you are aiming at. To be honest I never really understood why higher education is so valued. Unless you have the mind to become a doctor, engineer, scientists or process the ability to become something like an actuary it's pointless to attend.

I never really understood why people without the aptitude for higher education flock to it study worthless topic ( in term of monetary gain) then are somehow shocked they are no more employable then a high school graduate.

And thank you for proving my point since you clearly don’t understand the terms college and university are largely interchangeable in the US.

That and you’re repeating the myth that there’s been a sudden spike in “worthless” degrees - when there hasn’t, and by and far the most worthless degrees from an educational and critical thinking standpoint are business ones anyway.

[Elegiac]

You shouldn't even have to pay to get an education.

If folks like Krakan had their way we would still be arguing for free primary education.

An ignorant population of factory shackled wage slaves services their social vision.

[Shadowferal]

Stop patronizing and doling out who you think is deserving.

I'm not the one that insists that 20yr olds are irresponsible children.

[Elegiac]

I'm not the one that insists that 20yr olds are irresponsible children.

Just that being in crippling debt for your early adult life is somehow a character building experience.

[Daelak]

I'm not the one that insists that 20yr olds are irresponsible children.

Getting an education isn't responsible, and like I said in my earlier reply to you, forgiving all the loans would be an immediate stimulus comparable to 2009. Doing that in combination with a large Covid relief bill would make your 401K skyrocket as well as appreciating your real estate holdings.

[kamuimac]

HOw much student debt would you cancel?

Now that Joe Biden’s win has been certified by the Electoral College, there's hope that debt relief could be on the way. Just a question of much is politically possible. Some portion of the record $1.6 trillion of U.S. student loans ould be forgiven.

President-elect Joe Biden proposed forgiving at least $10,000 of federal student loans per person under his Emergency Action Plan to Save the Economy, as COVID-19 cases set alarming records.
Democratic Sens. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) and Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) urged the next president to cancel up to $50,000 in student debt immediately, a proposal outgoing Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos recently called a “socialist takeover of higher education.”




$10,000 would help the largest class of borrowers. But $50,000 would be more life changing.
Biden should definitely listen to Schumer and use executive order to cancel $50K of student debt per person.

0 ? students shouldnt even have debt in first place and if they do they should pay their debts

seems like american type of problems - here state Unis are free since they are sponsored out of our taxes - and some important for state engineering courses are even subsidides - not a lot but its a nice pocket change if you choose to study them 0 imagine getting paid to study X or Y which in future will be very profitable anyway

i suggest trying this approach and paying your taxes to contribute yo your society instead begging for cancelation of loans - it really works wonders.

[Krakan]

0 ? students shouldnt even have debt in first place and if they do they should pay their debts

seems like american type of problems - here state Unis are free since they are sponsored out of our taxes - and some important for state engineering courses are even subsidides - not a lot but its a nice pocket change if you choose to study them 0 imagine getting paid to study X or Y which in future will be very profitable anyway

i suggest trying this approach and paying your taxes to contribute yo your society instead begging for cancelation of loans - it really works wonders.

The major issue is universities in the Americas drastically lowered the requirements to join them. Rather then promoting useful education for employment art programs were heavily pushed without concern to practical application.

If you raised university entrance requirements to a roughly 85-90% highschool requirement most of the current issues will be eliminated.

[shimerra]

Just that being in crippling debt for your early adult life is somehow a character building experience.

I mean my grandpa was able to work a part time job and pay for school. Sure he wasn't living high on the hog but he was able to fish and enjoy some free time. That generation doesn't get that same paradigm doesn't apply now. I could work a full time and a part time job and be lucky to cover tuition before living expenses even came into play when I went to college. Luckily my family saved and I did pretty well but many? Student loans were their only hope to go to school.

And lenders are quite predatory. This forum alone should demonstrate most people don't have basic financial sense. And student loans for 10's of thousands are happily given away to people who couldn't even get a credit card. Seriously I could easily request a student loan for a shit ton of money but my first credit card I had to put a deposit on of like 50$ and only had a limit of like 200$ to build my credit. And yet we want to put every ounce of blame on the student?

[Shadowferal]

I mean my grandpa was able to work a part time job and pay for school. Sure he wasn't living high on the hog but he was able to fish and enjoy some free time. That generation doesn't get that same paradigm doesn't apply now. I could work a full time and a part time job and be lucky to cover tuition before living expenses even came into play when I went to college. Luckily my family saved and I did pretty well but many? Student loans were their only hope to go to school.

And this is why treating the symptoms of a disease doesn't work.

[shimerra]

And this is why treating the symptoms of a disease doesn't work.

Treating symptoms is actually a very important part of curing a disease. Because if your patient dies before you can cure it not much point is there? And considering for most viruses your options are vaccine before you get it or treating symptoms until your body beats(not very many cures for viruses relatively speaking in the same way we through anti-biotics at bacterial infections) it your metaphor continues to tumble down the stairs head over heals. Pick a better metaphor.



Student loans are one part of a larger problem. Refresh my memory what your solution was besides blaming 18 year olds for a pretty shitty system and if I recall wheeling out the tired ole treasure of "it's not fair because person before had shitty situation therefore all future persons must endure same shitty situation"? Because doing nothing sure as hell doesn't work treating a disease either and unfortunately partial measures is about all we can do if Republicans keep the senate.

[Shadowferal]

Treating symptoms is actually a very important part of curing a disease. Because if your patient dies before you can cure it not much point is there?

If you think forgiving loans will create a liberal society that votes "democrat" then you know nothing about history.
Once upon a time a student could work a summer job and pay off a year's tuition for most colleges.

[Milchshake]

I mean my grandpa was able to work a part time job and pay for school. Sure he wasn't living high on the hog but he was able to fish and enjoy some free time. That generation doesn't get that same paradigm doesn't apply now. I could work a full time and a part time job and be lucky to cover tuition before living expenses even came into play when I went to college. Luckily my family saved and I did pretty well but many? Student loans were their only hope to go to school.

Ya my Dad did the same, worked full time and went to college. Tuition at the University of Washington was a whopping $60 a quarter back then.
I did the same, worked full time and went to college. Tuition at the University of Washington was a whopping $860 a quarter some 30 years later.
My kids are looking at about $3600 a quarter, not terrible.

Having tuition that was subsidized by state taxes and lumber receipts really a great character building experience for me!
It created a diverse economic engine for the State. It helped our state economy unlink itself from the boom-bust cycles of; timber, fishing, and the fickle assholes at Boeing Corporate.

The subsidies were built on:

• Blind luck that the first settlers were Northern Protestants. Investing in the greater good were virtues for them. They made laws that steered state money into schools.
• The post-war boom was also lucky to still have leadership that wanted to invest in education. Throwing money at returning GIs, lending virtually free money to buy homes, go to school. Keeping them out of trouble.
• Pork Barreling, its actually good! Getting lawmakers off of their ideological highhorses by trading them money for pet projects. Our "Senators from Boeing" steered a huge amount of money to the UW. By having federal money for capital projects, they kept tuition costs low.

What happened to all those subsidies? Basically Reaganism; the fusion of Goldwater and Evangelicism.

• Soon as Reagan and the other followers of Goldwater became a governor, they always attacked state funding for their state universities.
• Gingrich and other Goldwater fans in congress killed pork barreling. So there's less public money out there, but more partisan grandstanding.
• Evangelicals really thrive in conditions of desperation, extreme poverty, and other disasters. This shit "Builds character" for them. And saves mega-preachers a ton of money on taxes. So forming alliances with antigovernmental lawmakers is a win-win.

[kamuimac]

So you admit students shouldn't ever have to go into debt just to earn an education, but then you go on to vote for 0 in order to say "fk the students serves them right for living in a corrupt system".

Is that what a free education looks like?

i have yet to see the most logical proposition - partial cancelation of debts in exchange for significant rise of taxes that could be used first to pay off those debts that were taken by state (debts dont dissapear just because you want to without severe "price" to pay ) and then to supplement University budgets.

but be honest - you just want to have your debts canceled without giving anythign in return .

thats why only possible answer is 0 .

maybe its time to teach people that taxes are tools which you can use to make your society better. and only alterantive is well ...personal debt that has to be paid off - like in case of US students.

nothing in life is free. altough i dont doubt that majority of americans thought that those stimiulous 1200$ checks that Trump used to buy your votes were for free and didnt come with debt that one day will have to be paid - by your kids and grandkids.

[Krastyn]

Treating symptoms is actually a very important part of curing a disease. Because if your patient dies before you can cure it not much point is there? And considering for most viruses your options are vaccine before you get it or treating symptoms until your body beats(not very many cures for viruses relatively speaking in the same way we through anti-biotics at bacterial infections) it your metaphor continues to tumble down the stairs head over heals. Pick a better metaphor.

It's a perfectly fine metaphor. Even better than you seem to think.

You've chosen to link it to a virus, where the only cure is for the individual to eventually beat it themselves. Student debt is nothing like that.

Student debt is very much closer to a bacteria. Even those for debt forgiveness point to the infection being caused by two main issues: Financial illiteracy and the high cost of education. Simply wiping out student debt doesn't "cure" the problem. It doesn't actually address the root problem at all. The underlying cause is still there at best, and at worst, you've made the overall problem much more dire.

So you wipe out student debt. That bill just gets moved from a personal debt to a government debt. Yearly. The only way for the government to compensate, is to raise taxes. So now those who benefit from higher-level education get their costs reduced, and everyone pays for it. Any person who didn't go to college / university is now worse off. I'm not saying this is overall a bad thing. It would likely have an overall net benefit, but some are going to pay a higher cost initially who won't see the benefit.

It still doesn't address the high cost of education, just who is paying for it.

It also doesn't, and to me more importantly, address the problem of financial illiteracy. If an 18 year old (and realistically, a 22 year old, as you don't pay all your tuition up front) couldn't understand how loans work, gets a degree now for free in underwater basket weaving and does the next major purchase for a lot of Americans: buy a house. Are they going to understand that interest rates are at historic lows, and that when they inevitably go up they may not be able to finance it? There is a serious risk that you're just going to shift the "student debt crisis" into a "mortgage debt crisis". Now add in the fact that the government has already previously bailed out corporations for being "too big to fail", and they would have already bailed out a large group of private debt because it was deemed important. The government at that point will be signaling that if there ever were to be a problem like that, they'll bail people out again.

I'd sooner see a plan where those in financial distress can apply to have their student loans converted to interest-free and a payment plan they can afford. Find a way either though legislation, or through government run schools and cap tuition at say, $10,000 a year, as well as revamp the high school education system to include mandatory financial teaching.

Targeted solutions are almost always better than blanket ones.

[Krakan]

It's a perfectly fine metaphor. Even better than you seem to think.

You've chosen to link it to a virus, where the only cure is for the individual to eventually beat it themselves. Student debt is nothing like that.

Student debt is very much closer to a bacteria. Even those for debt forgiveness point to the infection being caused by two main issues: Financial illiteracy and the high cost of education. Simply wiping out student debt doesn't "cure" the problem. It doesn't actually address the root problem at all. The underlying cause is still there at best, and at worst, you've made the overall problem much more dire.

So you wipe out student debt. That bill just gets moved from a personal debt to a government debt. Yearly. The only way for the government to compensate, is to raise taxes. So now those who benefit from higher-level education get their costs reduced, and everyone pays for it. Any person who didn't go to college / university is now worse off. I'm not saying this is overall a bad thing. It would likely have an overall net benefit, but some are going to pay a higher cost initially who won't see the benefit.

It still doesn't address the high cost of education, just who is paying for it.

It also doesn't, and to me more importantly, address the problem of financial illiteracy. If an 18 year old (and realistically, a 22 year old, as you don't pay all your tuition up front) couldn't understand how loans work, gets a degree now for free in underwater basket weaving and does the next major purchase for a lot of Americans: buy a house. Are they going to understand that interest rates are at historic lows, and that when they inevitably go up they may not be able to finance it? There is a serious risk that you're just going to shift the "student debt crisis" into a "mortgage debt crisis". Now add in the fact that the government has already previously bailed out corporations for being "too big to fail", and they would have already bailed out a large group of private debt because it was deemed important. The government at that point will be signaling that if there ever were to be a problem like that, they'll bail people out again.

I'd sooner see a plan where those in financial distress can apply to have their student loans converted to interest-free and a payment plan they can afford. Find a way either though legislation, or through government run schools and cap tuition at say, $10,000 a year, as well as revamp the high school education system to include mandatory financial teaching.

Targeted solutions are almost always better than blanket ones.

That or you just don't persue a worthless degree... I don't believe it's any more ethical to try and pin a poorly thought out education on the tax payer then it is a tropical get away.

Part of being an adult is accepting responsibility for ones decisions.

[shimerra]

That or you just don't persue a worthless degree... I don't believe it's any more ethical to try and pin a poorly thought out education on the tax payer then it is a tropical get away.

Part of being an adult is accepting responsibility for ones decisions.

Most people don't pursue the degrees people like yourself lazily refer to when saying a "worthless degree". Fuck my uncle was a god damn engineer and it took him an extremely long time to find a job after he graduated.


I don't think it's ethical to talk out your ass on things you know nothing about but here you are.

Targeted solutions are almost always better than blanket ones.

His metaphor was trash. Or if you want to be pedantic his use of a treating a diseases as a metaphor for student debt/higher education was trash. Because if you saw my post you'd see I used the same metaphor, but in a way that actually applied to the situation. Ignoring your entire waste of breath so to speak ignores the fact about what you can actually do with the resources available.

And in this case the resource is political actors willing to enact policy. And as someone with their masters in economics I can firmly state that that is not how the debt transfer would have to work at all. It's one way it could, but not the only way. And delaying treating a symptom because it doesn't completely cure the diseases is completely fucking stupid unless you want your patience to die before you cure said disease. Regardless the cost of doing it your way is pennies compared to the long term benefit. Much like it would be to go to a Universal healthcare system.

And wiping out student debt is a targeted solution. It's not a whole solution to the overall problem, no one said it was but ya'll keep fucking acting like that's what's said, but thanks for missing the point. But what it is is something that will help the problem slightly until the other solutions can be brought to bear and it's one of the few things that can be done without control of the Senate which will complicate executing all the other things you're complaining about while ignoring the point I'm actually making. And again if you don't treat the symptom of people drowning in debt then your patient is going to die before you get to all the rest of the shit you went on about where you missed the part where I said wiping out student debt isn't a total solution to the problem.

We should also correct the reasons costs have gone up and how it's paid for overall but this are solutions that needs to be done in combination with addressing massive debt problems. Where you and Shadowferal start pissing your pants is that right now dems can only do the student debt part, and are blocked in congress from the rest. And I unlike you find a partial attempt to address the problem in this case a better answer than fucking nothing because we can't do all of it at once.

[Stormspellz]

25k but also allow it be cleared by bankruptcy, federal interest on the loans should be the same rate they lend to the banks, and then mandates to prevent school price gouging

[Krastyn]

That or you just don't persue a worthless degree... I don't believe it's any more ethical to try and pin a poorly thought out education on the tax payer then it is a tropical get away.

Part of being an adult is accepting responsibility for ones decisions.

I do not believe there are really any worthless degrees. Some are worth less in the ability to monetize the education than others, but I believe all education has worth.

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His metaphor was trash. Or if you want to be pedantic his use of a treating a diseases as a metaphor for student debt/higher education was trash. Because if you saw my post you'd see I used the same metaphor, but in a way that actually applied to the situation. Ignoring your entire waste of breath so to speak ignores the fact about what you can actually do with the resources available.

It's only bad if you assume he was specifically treating it like a virus. I'm glad you're opening up your reply with a complete dismissal of what I wrote without actually addressing any of it. I'll return the favor. Your opinion that his metaphor was bad is trash. See how easy that is?

And in this case the resource is political actors willing to enact policy. And as someone with their masters in economics I can firmly state that that is not how the debt transfer would have to work at all. It's one way it could, but not the only way. And delaying treating a symptom because it doesn't completely cure the diseases is completely fucking stupid unless you want your patience to die before you cure said disease. Regardless the cost of doing it your way is pennies compared to the long term benefit. Much like it would be to go to a Universal healthcare system.

You're showing a complete tunnel vision of what both the resources are, the solutions, and what people are proposing as options. I also never claimed the bold.

To even say it should be like universal health care still doesn't even address it fully. Canada has what people would consider universal health care, but it still doesn't actually cover everything.

Take Germany. They have free public university, but also private. Should the government then pay for anyone who wants to use the private system? Why not? How is it much different from now in the US when someone chooses to go to a named school over a community college?

Simply saying "Wipe all student debt, make university free and everything will be sunshine and roses" does nothing to address the difficulty in that or the potential negative externalities. The details on how that happens matters. A lot.

And wiping out student debt is a targeted solution.

That is literally the definition of a blanket solution.
"We have a problem with group X"
"Well just do Y for every single person in that group regardless of situation or circumstance"

It's not a whole solution to the overall problem, no one said it was but ya'll keep fucking acting like that's what's said, but thanks for missing the point.

It's a drop in the bucket of the problem, and an inefficient use of resources. It adds additional negative externalities. It will compensate some to orders magnitude more than others, many of which wouldn't actually need it. Doesn't address overall debt in general. Still requires political capital to implement, as well as financial capital.

But what it is is something that will help the problem slightly until the other solutions can be brought to bear and it's one of the few things that can be done without control of the Senate which will complicate executing all the other things you're complaining about while ignoring the point I'm actually making.

You're still ignoring the ramifications of that attempted action. Even if Biden were able to write off the current debt (which there still isn't even a consensus he can do) what happens next year? Do they just keep writing off debt every year? Why would any student from that point on ever try to pay for their tuition? Just take a loan for as much as you can, and get it written off. What would stop schools from drastically increasing their tuition? What about student loan debt that isn't with the government? If you run this through executive order without Senate support, how much bipartisan support do you expect for the rest of his term?

You're going to get a lot more bipartisan support if you have an actual plan, instead of blank checks.

And again if you don't treat the symptom of people drowning in debt then your patient is going to die before you get to all the rest of the shit you went on about where you missed the part where I said wiping out student debt isn't a total solution to the problem.

You also don't throw life preservers to every single person in the pool when someone is drowning. You send the help to people who need it.

Would I have taken student loan forgiveness? Sure. Why would I turn down free money? Would I have needed it? No. The money would have been better used elsewhere.

We should also correct the reasons costs have gone up and how it's paid for overall but this are solutions that needs to be done in combination with addressing massive debt problems. Where you and Shadowferal start pissing your pants is that right now dems can only do the student debt part, and are blocked in congress from the rest. And I unlike you find a partial attempt to address the problem in this case a better answer than fucking nothing because we can't do all of it at once.

In order to be blocked in congress, you would first need to actually propose something. This is the issue I'm taking. I'll let Shadow speak for himself. Your (and many others in this threat) opening position is to throw unlimited money at it without any concern of cost or consequence. Both of which are very real. Doing something isn't always better than doing nothing. A blanket "forgive all loans, and forgive all future loans" would likely be over a trillion dollars a year. You're proposing increasing the budget by over 20% without any counterbalance. How do you see that playing out?

If you're going to play the card that it's within the President's power to modify student loans, why not just drop interest (or drastically lower it), and add a delay before you need to start repaying?: That alone would save students over $70 billion a year. It would stop them from drowning, as things wouldn't be getting worse.

[Aenigma84]

My question is
does it fix anything longterm ? wont new students in the US get new debt wich seems pretty unfair to them if you cancel the debt from those that came before them.
and if the idea is to cancel it every few years what makes people think banks would even give studentloans in the future ?