So, what do you think of the loot change in Shadowlands regarding m+?

[ellieg]

Which is why my original reply to this topic stated "this depends on how lucky you have been".

You have obviously been lucky enough to (probably) always have an upgrade waiting in your GV each week. Some, like me, have not and have also been saddled with atrocious luck with drops from the content we're doing. I'm doing as much as I can as often as I can, and yet the majority of my gear is still heroic dungeon blues, because the game simply refuses to drop gear for me, and my supposed 'bad luck protection' is not offering me anything I can use.

Pvp and u have full 184 gear. 184 gear from covenant now if you're caught up on renown. Do m0s with same armor type as you will get geared quickly. Do conquest and you will have ~3 pieces of 200 right now without any rating

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Not sure what you mean by the last sentence? You think you need a hand picked group(your words) to do several keys at your skill level? I did 4 Mists m+ with 4 different groups last week, took approx 2 hours to both find groups and clear. If you get a good group, lets say GUILD and then go and do mythic+ you can gear up quickly, same as pugs.

It was just an example, now I provided another. There are means to gear up fast through m+. And I am sure you also know that.

Hes saying you obviously can't just do the same specific dungeon multiple times because keys get upgraded and each member has dif keys. While 3x tirna would be great per hour. Its more like 1 tirna then u travel to go do SD or ToP because that's the keys you have.

[kaminaris]

snip

No. Simply no.

The big problem is that having anything based on large number of people means two things, huge amount of logistics and having to align schedule of all these people.

Most modern MMOs don't even offer anything beyond ~12 players at the same time. There is a good fucking reason for that. Even when 25s had more loot, 10s were much more popular. https://www.engadget.com/2012-04-20-...man-raids.html

GW2: 10
FF XIV: 8
TESO: 12
SWTOR: 8/16
TERA: 5 (just dungeons, raids were cut out)
LOTRO: 6/12/24

And only the wow keeps this retarded archaic design that only relevant difficulty is set for 20 man because they design game around world first guilds.

M+ doesn't have arpg feeling at all, but also doesn't have mmo feeling because of timers. Amount of loot and key level shouldn't be tied to timing it or not.

[ellieg]

No. Simply no.

The big problem is that having anything based on large number of people means two things, huge amount of logistics and having to align schedule of all these people.

Most modern MMOs don't even offer anything beyond ~12 players at the same time. There is a good fucking reason for that. Even when 25s had more loot, 10s were much more popular. https://www.engadget.com/2012-04-20-...man-raids.html

GW2: 10
FF XIV: 8
TESO: 12
SWTOR: 8/16
TERA: 5 (just dungeons, raids were cut out)
LOTRO: 6/12/24

And only the wow keeps this retarded archaic design that only relevant difficulty is set for 20 man because they design game around world first guilds.

M+ doesn't have arpg feeling at all, but also doesn't have mmo feeling because of timers. Amount of loot and key level shouldn't be tied to timing it or not.

If there was no timer, you'd wait for full cds and bloodlust every single pull to push the highest keys. Not a fan of that at all.

[Kralljin]

Most modern MMOs don't even offer anything beyond ~12 players at the same time. There is a good fucking reason for that. Even when 25s had more loot, 10s were much more popular. https://www.engadget.com/2012-04-20-...man-raids.html

I didn't claim that 25man raiding was more popular, i even wrote that Blizzard did this to salvage the last mode that actually has some form of large scale activity within the game, which obviously implies that 10man was more popular than 25man.

And you're not winning any prizes for pointing out that when two modes compete with each other due to having the same rewards, the one with less organizational requirements wins out, because path of least resistance.

Issue is, you also stop being an MMO when you design everything around a minimum of organizational requirements, because then you will always end up with solo content or small scale group content, neither of which are defining features of MMO's and there are games more suited to that experience on the market.

M+ doesn't have arpg feeling at all, but also doesn't have mmo feeling because of timers.

Please tell me how to feel about things, because to me it most certainly does.

[Darkke]

If there was no timer, you'd wait for full cds and bloodlust every single pull to push the highest keys. Not a fan of that at all.

Sure a very tiny part of player base would do that to push the absolute limits and they would probably even enjoy doing it. But the vast majority would be happy to run their m+ without having to panic about the timer for the whole run and being able to take it a bit slower if they wanted.

[Mystikal]

Pvp and u have full 184 gear. 184 gear from covenant now if you're caught up on renown. Do m0s with same armor type as you will get geared quickly. Do conquest and you will have ~3 pieces of 200 right now without any rating

I'm doing my M0 runs each week and just having lousy luck. I don't PvP, losing matches continually for several hours and getting a slow drip of honour isn't much fun. With having to keep up with WQs, the M0 and M+ runs, and, when I can make them, raids, I don't have much time left over for PvP anyway.

I'm aware that there are shitty pieces from my covenant, which will have to do, but I need the thousands of anima to fully upgrade them all - no small task either, considering that Anima is a resource required for a lot of other things. Trying to get to exalted with the four main reps is my best bet right now, as at least they have a 200 ilvl piece each.

EDIT: I love the assumption that I'm not running M0, or that M0 somehow guarantees drops. Or the fact that upgrading 14 slots of PvP gear to 184 (which require thousands of honour each) is somehow a quick thing.

[kaminaris]

If there was no timer, you'd wait for full cds and bloodlust every single pull to push the highest keys. Not a fan of that at all.

This pseudo argument was defeated first day it appeared, like 4 years ago.

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Please tell me how to feel about things, because to me it most certainly does.

No, when thinking arpg i see myself lots of small mobs easy to kill and overpower, and without timer or mostly irrelevant timer.
Most notable PoE, Diablo. M+ certainly doesn't feel like it.

[intenz]

Larger scale should mean less quality loot, not better, for the reason that it lowers the individual skill cap. You can carry a shitter or two through some mythic raid bosses, you can't carry shitters through +15 keys right now. This is why 3v3 is the pinnacle of pvp rather than RBGs. Elite M+ has a higher skillcap than mythic raiding, I think even most mythic raiders will admit that. While most competent players can participate in mythic raiding if they invested the time, I don't think many mythic raiders could compete for the highest keys.

Loot should really have 20+ M+, 2400+ 3v3, and mythic raiding later bosses all at around the same ilevel, with lower keys, other brackets of pvp, and earlier mythic bosses at a lower ilevel.

The current situation of heroic shriekwing (one of the easiest hc bosses in recent memory) giving better loot than a +15 key is really hilarious

[Kralljin]

No, when thinking arpg i see myself lots of small mobs easy to kill and overpower, and without timer or mostly irrelevant timer.

And i see
-Infinite difficulty scaling
-Scaling loot
-Always the same enemy (types) / Dungeon
-(Semi) Random affixes

And for Diablo rifts, you also need to kill a certain amount of mobs in order to get rewards, sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it?
I'm not claiming it's a literal clone, but it's most certainly is far closer to what you see in an ARPG than what we've previously seen in WoW in terms of 5man dungeon content.

The timer may not be present in most ARPG's, but is also not a trademark of dungeons in your average RPG game and fits far more into an action based game.
At least Diablo Rifts have a timer in order to upgrade its keystone.

Larger scale should mean less quality loot, not better, for the reason that it lowers the individual skill cap.

The best rewards should come from content that the developers see as their core content or rather, best designed content, as it is the most fun.

Turning skill into the centerpiece of everything is also terrible design, as a static challenge (Raids) can obviously hardly compete with infinite scaling challenge (M+), let alone PvP content.
Especially PvP is difficult to compare in terms of rewards simply because how the system works, it's literally impossible for everybody to reach a high rating in Arena as it is a rating based system(unless people exploit the system / Rating inflation is happening), whereas PvE content can be cleared by everybody in theory.

Furthermore, the second you give people the option to get [best rewards] from a game mode, people expect a modicum of balance, which is already more than difficult to provide as the game is absolutely torn between Raids, M+, Arena PvP and RBG's in terms of balance.

[Kumorii]

Loot is alright, implement some blp or increase strength of it and we gucci.

[Xahz]

Ppl who pvp have full 184 from honor. ~3 items bought from conquest. 2 potential items from chest.

Unless they are top 10% of pvpers, you probably have higher ilvl than the ones who only pvp. If anything, you shld be doing all content if you want more gear. If it's so easy to gear in pvp, why havent you gotten 1800+ to fill in your slots? It also has verse main stat which a lot of pve dps dsnt like.

Ppl who do M+ exclusively have better gear if they put in the time. You shldve gotten 2 226 pieces by now if you're as good as u think u are. And at 2 items a run, its not as hard to gear up as u think. Run with a set group and share the loot. Or like I said above, blizz wants you dabbling in all content this xpqc

Wow, great job not addressing a single thing that I said.

[kamuimac]

TF was bad as well. It’s not that it HAS to be TF or this system, you know.

How about loot being as it was in BfA but without TF?

Why we are still stuck after 16 years with this Vanilla mentality “you gotta take ages to gear up”?

TF was not bad in itself but it should have come with additional systems

1)cloth/leather/plate crafter should have been able to craft and sell +tilv / +tertiary stats items
2)jewelcrafters shoudl have been able to craft sockets for gear
3)enchanters should have been able to make enchants for each possible slot .

4) all of those options should be also farmable in some other way - for example by badges / VP

then WoW would be like a true mmorpg.

now its boring unrewarding instance symulator .

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If there was no timer, you'd wait for full cds and bloodlust every single pull to push the highest keys. Not a fan of that at all.

good. thats how proper mmorpg should be.

would this mean that some people would take 10 hours but be able to clear +15 ? amazing - this would also teach people importance of cc / not breaking cc

thats how mmorpgs should be - thats the true mmorpg experience

i would go further - and make dungeons scallable to 10 man - then we would get basicly for free mini raids.

[ellieg]

I'm doing my M0 runs each week and just having lousy luck. I don't PvP, losing matches continually for several hours and getting a slow drip of honour isn't much fun. With having to keep up with WQs, the M0 and M+ runs, and, when I can make them, raids, I don't have much time left over for PvP anyway.

I'm aware that there are shitty pieces from my covenant, which will have to do, but I need the thousands of anima to fully upgrade them all - no small task either, considering that Anima is a resource required for a lot of other things. Trying to get to exalted with the four main reps is my best bet right now, as at least they have a 200 ilvl piece each.

EDIT: I love the assumption that I'm not running M0, or that M0 somehow guarantees drops. Or the fact that upgrading 14 slots of PvP gear to 184 (which require thousands of honour each) is somehow a quick thing.

I just mentioned m0 cause its 20% chance of drop each boss, ~1 drop a dungeon for you. As opposed to 1 drop for entire group and 1 more if u time for m+.

If you find the time, you can do the daily bg bonus and get some conquest and honor there.

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Wow, great job not addressing a single thing that I said.

No need to be a prick cause you can't understand why you're wrong lol.

Did you or did you not say " Right now people who PvP have nearly twice the gear as people who run Mythic+" ?

[Doffen]

Hes saying you obviously can't just do the same specific dungeon multiple times because keys get upgraded and each member has dif keys. While 3x tirna would be great per hour. Its more like 1 tirna then u travel to go do SD or ToP because that's the keys you have.

Sure, what I do mean is that it was just an example. But in my other example, which I did myself is to find different pugs doing Mists because I wanted something there. It's a hyperbolic example, but in essence, gearing up is fast this way, doing dungeons within your skill level so you get 2 pieces of gear each run, instead of doing something higher, use like 1 hour and get one piece of loot, instead of doing lets say two a tad lower and get 4 pieces of loot.

If you go with a guild you could start at Mists, then go to another dungeon to do the same thing as I am trying to get through here, you can spam those mythic+ endlessly.

[ellieg]

Sure, what I do mean is that it was just an example. But in my other example, which I did myself is to find different pugs doing Mists because I wanted something there. It's a hyperbolic example, but in essence, gearing up is fast this way, doing dungeons within your skill level so you get 2 pieces of gear each run, instead of doing something higher, use like 1 hour and get one piece of loot, instead of doing lets say two a tad lower and get 4 pieces of loot.

If you go with a guild you could start at Mists, then go to another dungeon to do the same thing as I am trying to get through here, you can spam those mythic+ endlessly.

Oh I agree with you. Was just clarifying what the other poster meant.

[Doffen]

Oh I agree with you. Was just clarifying what the other poster meant.

Yeah, did not mean to make any argument towards you! Appreciate the clarification, I was a bit lost on that point

Happy new year!

[kaminaris]

And i see
-Infinite difficulty scaling
-Scaling loot
-Always the same enemy (types) / Dungeon
-(Semi) Random affixes

And for Diablo rifts, you also need to kill a certain amount of mobs in order to get rewards, sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it?
I'm not claiming it's a literal clone, but it's most certainly is far closer to what you see in an ARPG than what we've previously seen in WoW in terms of 5man dungeon content.

The timer may not be present in most ARPG's, but is also not a trademark of dungeons in your average RPG game and fits far more into an action based game.
At least Diablo Rifts have a timer in order to upgrade its keystone.

- PoE doesn't have infinite difficulty scaling, diablo doesn't either, wow doesn't either. Difficulty scaling isn't what makes something "action", thats probably the only thing that is somewhat similar.
- WoW doesn't scale loot the same way arpgs does = quantity, not quality. Two completely different things. If wow would scale like ARPG we would have 100 items per instance.
- Completely random enemies each run in ARPGs vs static enemies.
- Affixes are permanent per week, thats what makes it inherently different from arpg what i played. Means each RUN is different, not each week.

Diablo is Blizz game, in PoE you can literally don't kill anything just last boss to "complete" a map.
PoE doesn't have timer anywhere and look now how diablo vs poe popularity went.

Now for differences.
In diablo you can run any type at any difficulty once you cleared it once.
In PoE you can reroll maps, reforge maps, upgrade maps and even buy maps if you play trade league.
In WoW if you get shit key, you are stuck with shit key.

Neither diablo nor PoE forces you to play lower key if you happen to "fail" a run. You can always run it again immediately.
Bad map affix in PoE ? Reroll.
Bricked Map? Run another one.

Nothing of that is possible in WoW.

So it might have been inspired from arpgs, doesn't make it arpg feeling because key features are not there.

[Kralljin]

- PoE doesn't have infinite difficulty scaling, diablo doesn't either, wow doesn't either. Difficulty scaling isn't what makes something "action", thats probably the only thing that is somewhat similar.

As far as i know, there is no real cap on how a keystone can go, at least one that is reasonable to reach.
For all intents and purposes, it scales infinite, only the rewards are capped.

It's not like it has fixed difficulties such as raiding, which has four, then you have Affixes which further muddle the waters in terms of difficulty.

- WoW doesn't scale loot the same way arpgs does = quantity, not quality. Two completely different things. If wow would scale like ARPG we would have 100 items per instance.

Loot in APRG also tends to scales in quality not just quantity.

- Affixes are permanent per week, thats what makes it inherently different from arpg what i played. Means each RUN is different, not each week.

Keyword: semi

PoE doesn't have timer anywhere and look now how diablo vs poe popularity went.

Okay, doesn't change the fact that the function of Nephalem rifts and M+ are highly similiar.

This debate isn't about what's part of a successful ARPG and i highly doubt that the timers on Nephalem rifts are one of the key reasons why most people see PoE as the superior ARPG over Diablo.
If this would have been such massive dealbreaker for people, Blizzard would have removed timers years ago, it's not like they're somehow integral to how Nephalem rifts work.

So it might have been inspired from arpgs, doesn't make it arpg feeling because key features are not there.

It's one of the reasons i why hate discussing anything with you, you draw the lines as you see fit, call them facts and refuse to accept anything else.
M+ is highly similiar to systems seen in ARPG such as Diablo, when you handwave all that aside by citing your own defined version of "key features", it's a pointless debate.

[ShaanuJaanu]

99% of the players in this thread that claim "zomg infinite scaling content must reward mega ilvl" don't do any high keys. They just want ez loot. Also the people claiming zomg heroic is so ez why does it give high ilvl loot - maybe you should go do the zomg ez heroic then. I think the loot is fine, sure its a bit of a drought at the beginning but with great vault offering great flexibility, its not going to be a problem in the long run. I think you'll have BiS gear way faster than any previous iteration of gear system in WoW (barring badges but that offered very few BiS options).

[kaminaris]

As far as i know, there is no real cap on how a keystone can go, at least one that is reasonable to reach.
For all intents and purposes, it scales infinite, only the rewards are capped.

It's not like it has fixed difficulties such as raiding, which has four, then you have Affixes which further muddle the waters in terms of difficulty.

For me it doesn't matter if it's 4 of 15 difficulties, its not like its a unique concept or arpg exclusive.

Loot in APRG also tends to scales in quality not just quantity.

usually its just quantity.

Keyword: semi

That makes a whole world apart difference. Being stuck with same affixes for a week vs each run being completely different.

Okay, doesn't change the fact that the function of Nephalem rifts and M+ are highly similiar.

The only thing is similar is the fact that keystone is named "keystone". Everything else is different. Even keystones works completely different.
Timers: present in both, implications and consequences are completely different.
Keystone: have the same name, works completely different.
Affixes: completely different mechanic.

This debate isn't about what's part of a successful ARPG and i highly doubt that the timers on Nephalem rifts are one of the key reasons why most people see PoE as the superior ARPG over Diablo.
If this would have been such massive dealbreaker for people, Blizzard would have removed timers years ago, it's not like they're somehow integral to how Nephalem rifts work.

This probably is the sole reason because of pugs toxicity. Lets not believe that everything blizz does have logical explanation.

It's one of the reasons i why hate discussing anything with you, you draw the lines as you see fit, call them facts and refuse to accept anything else.
M+ is highly similiar to systems seen in ARPG such as Diablo, when you handwave all that aside by citing your own defined version of "key features", it's a pointless debate.

Then do a side by side comparisons between diablo rifts vs wow keystones. As objective as can be and you will see that differences are vast. Simple excel document with 2 columns.