"So Glad We Bought This Warrior to our M+ Group!"

[Matthias]

Said no one ever....

I'm actually baffled at how I never noticed a DPS Warriors utter lack of utility throughout Legion and BFA but it's coming full to a head in Shadowlands.

Legion trash was rudamentary your DPS was what people cared about (And DPS Warriors could Shockwave). BFA got a bit more tricky, keep in mind I only really played the last season, but people just needed to interrupt, and the tank could take care of most of that. A lot of mobs immunie to CC in SL.

Shadowlands really encourages one to use their toolkit at it's limit, and I think it's awesome as you can take stock of your parties abilities and approach the same dungeon differently.....but Warriors just don't do anything. Rallying Cry and Battle Shout both which are hard to notice.

• Shaman, Hunters and Mages are critical for Bloodlust/Heroism. They also bring in Dispell affects. Warrior burst also seems to inferior in comparision to a Mages Combust. (Dont get me started on the overall utility of Hunters and Mages entirely)
• Druids, Warlocks and DKs in combat ress. Death Grip is clutch, Lock cookies are life, Lock Portals can be used to finesse a few things. Druids can also dispell enrage.

When we get to classes that don't bring the essentials (Lust/Ress):

• Rogues can Shroud for skips. Priest can use Soothe for this on some pulls.
• Monks always impress me with Ring of Peace.
• A Ret Paladin that will actually Blessing of Sacrifice the tank or BoP a party member.

Also some of those classes can ress if the healer goes down to prevent loss of time. Warriors could really have their Banners return from MoP or better yet Mass Spell Reflection. Warriors are currently strong in PvP atm so this could be a balancing Nightmare. With the introduction of M+ I do think Blizzard should consider adding a 4th column of talents to all classes perhaps Warriors could spec into a War Banner that allows them to lust if needed but at the cost of the needed Defensive Stance for PvP.

[nocturnus]

Said no one ever....

I'm actually baffled at how I never noticed a DPS Warriors utter lack of utility throughout Legion and BFA but it's coming full to a head in Shadowlands.

Legion trash was rudamentary your DPS was what people cared about (And DPS Warriors could Shockwave). BFA got a bit more tricky, keep in mind I only really played the last season, but people just needed to interrupt, and the tank could take care of most of that. A lot of mobs immunie to CC in SL.

Shadowlands really encourages one to use their toolkit at it's limit, and I think it's awesome as you can take stock of your parties abilities and approach the same dungeon differently.....but Warriors just don't do anything. Rallying Cry and Battle Shout both which are hard to notice.

• Shaman, Hunters and Mages are critical for Bloodlust/Heroism. They also bring in Dispell affects. Warrior burst also seems to inferior in comparision to a Mages Combust. (Dont get me started on the overall utility of Hunters and Mages entirely)
• Druids, Warlocks and DKs in combat ress. Death Grip is clutch, Lock cookies are life, Lock Portals can be used to finesse a few things. Druids can also dispell enrage.

When we get to classes that don't bring the essentials (Lust/Ress):

• Rogues can Shroud for skips. Priest can use Soothe for this on some pulls.
• Monks always impress me with Ring of Peace.
• A Ret Paladin that will actually Blessing of Sacrifice the tank or BoP a party member.

Also some of those classes can ress if the healer goes down to prevent loss of time. Warriors could really have their Banners return from MoP or better yet Mass Spell Reflection. Warriors are currently strong in PvP atm so this could be a balancing Nightmare. With the introduction of M+ I do think Blizzard should consider adding a 4th column of talents to all classes perhaps Warriors could spec into a War Banner that allows them to lust if needed but at the cost of the needed Defensive Stance for PvP.

Yeah well, I already gave up on playing DPS. It's literally impossible to find groups at ilvl 205 so I'm just tanking and leveling a mage.

[sweatshopkids]

It's literally impossible to find groups at ilvl 205

You couldn't be more wrong. Literally.

[MrPaladinGuy]

Yeah well, I already gave up on playing DPS. It's literally impossible to find groups at ilvl 205 so I'm just tanking and leveling a mage.

IO score matters a whole lot more for M+, I have a dogshit awful score and have to prove myself, but I'm always top dps for like 95% of the run and surprise everyone.

[Sagnar]

The problem is not necessary the class itself, but also the constant min/max meta. People will always choose the bis item/classes in the game.

Blizzard are simply not adjusting and tuning the classes fast enough. They do minor tweeks with numbers in the backround, but ignore useless talents and combination for all specs. Usually this tuning "may" happend in the upcoming major patch(Many months away), but they always say big changes are not good for patches, but rather next expansion.

For my point of view. They are so out of touch with the playerbase regarding tuning.

[Omedon]

Don't PUG M+. That's the underlying message of handing a single player path to every customer. Blizzard doesn't have to and can't make the community accept you into community-curated groups. Their response to that is the very busy and fulfilling-to-reasonable-players covenant campaigns. I'm composing an entire thread about this in the background, but seeing this thread I had to throw this in here.

Take a step back, look at the bigger picture, set your goals accordingly. If you don't have your own 5-man team or guild that does this content among friends, M+ isn't your content. I mean you can try to shoehorn yourself there, of course you can try, but the wall of the community is not something devs can control. That's why the anima-powered covenant game exists.

[tikcol]

Don't PUG M+. That's the underlying message of handing a single player path to every customer. Blizzard doesn't have to and can't make the community accept you into community-curated groups. Their response to that is the very busy and fulfilling-to-reasonable-players covenant campaigns. I'm composing an entire thread about this in the background, but seeing this thread I had to throw this in here.

Take a step back, look at the bigger picture, set your goals accordingly. If you don't have your own 5-man team or guild that does this content among friends, M+ isn't your content. I mean you can try to shoehorn yourself there, of course you can try, but the wall of the community is not something devs can control. That's why the anima-powered covenant game exists.

I've been pugging m+ since ever.. Most often than not people with this kind of argument are the kind of people that can't even pull their own weight, end up with low scores and then blame the system.

[Omedon]

I've been pugging m+ since ever..

And maybe that's not the intent this expansion. They can change their design intent.

I don't run M+, because I see it for what it is: Not for me, because I can't bring my own team. And I'm happy in the game. It is a lightbulb moment, and it can happen for other people. I have felt so perfectly served and catered to with shadowlands, and while I watch dungeons become more and more "no really, run it with friends" in their mechanics, even observing from LFD, the 10 foot pole between myself and M+ grows... and my opinion of it as a "friends only" avenue solidifies.

I don't need to run the content to observe its place in the game. Indeed, in some ways my vision is clearer because I'm not corrupted by "but I should be able to do this because I did it before." I was a dungeon guy until WQs showed up, which was not coincidentally introduced at the same time as M+. They took dungeon ambition away from casuals and gave us world quests, and I gladly took that trade.

And, no, before anyone says it... M+ is not casual content.

[Asrialol]

Well, if me and my mates require a DPS for our runs at 12-15 keys the amount of people signing up is kinda silly at the moment. There's usually so many I can't even check them all, so we usually just check out the few classes that could be of benefit - and a DPS warrior is, unfortunately, never that class. Unless we're doing low shit keys and just want battle shout because we can just brute force those keys.

Shadowlands dungeons and certain affixes being melee unfriendly doesn't really help either.

[Omedon]

Well, if me and my mates require a DPS for our runs at 12-15 keys the amount of people signing up is kinda silly at the moment. There's usually so many I can't even check them all, so we usually just check out the few classes that could be of benefit - and a DPS warrior is, unfortunately, never that class. Unless we're doing low shit keys and just want battle shout because we can just brute force those keys.

Shadowlands dungeons and certain affixes being melee unfriendly doesn't really help either.

There are always going to be preferred classes, there's only so much the devs can do about that, but every one of those DPS warriors chose (wrongly, IMO) to aim higher than heroic dungeons that WILL take them without question, because that mode is curated by the game, and is therefore "casual" in the only metric that really matters.

Conversely, those DPS warrior can form groups of friends, actual friends that won't care that their class isn't META but is a character played by "our friend Dave whose company we enjoy and isn't a burden for that reason," and experience the optional, incremental numbers-progression of mythic plus. As intended.

Again, don't PUG M+, it's a player-curated and therefore not casual mode.

[T-34]

Don't PUG M+. That's the underlying message of handing a single player path to every customer. Blizzard doesn't have to and can't make the community accept you into community-curated groups. Their response to that is the very busy and fulfilling-to-reasonable-players covenant campaigns. I'm composing an entire thread about this in the background, but seeing this thread I had to throw this in here.

Take a step back, look at the bigger picture, set your goals accordingly. If you don't have your own 5-man team or guild that does this content among friends, M+ isn't your content. I mean you can try to shoehorn yourself there, of course you can try, but the wall of the community is not something devs can control. That's why the anima-powered covenant game exists.

Ahahaha.
I've pugged my way to M 10-11s so far, which by the way isn't impressive at all. But if I can do it then everybody can do it.
And that "wall" you are talking about can be climbed if you make your own group or if you play well so people want to group with you again.
So you are 100% in control of what you can achieve within this game.

Your "wall" is build by bricks of your own making and are named: incomptence, laziness and social ineptitude.
And the first step you need to take in order to break down this wall of your own making is to accept that you are bad at the game, identify your short-comings and start taking the first steps on the path of becoming a better player, a player that other people want to play with.

[Asrialol]

There are always going to be preferred classes, there's only so much the devs can do about that, but every one of those DPS warriors chose (wrongly, IMO) to aim higher than heroic dungeons that WILL take them without question, because that mode is curated by the game, and is therefore "casual" in the only metric that really matters.

Conversely, those DPS warrior can form groups of friends, actual friends that won't care that their class isn't META but is a character played by "our friend Dave whose company we enjoy and isn't a burden for that reason," and experience the optional, incremental numbers-progression of mythis plus. As intended.

Again, don't PUG M+, it's a player-curated and therefore not casual mode.

Indeed. If one of the friends I usually do keys with mained a DPS warrior, we would still bring him because we are after all, friends. If we happen to meet a DPS warrior in some dungeon or whatever scenario that vibes with us, it'd be fine for him to fill the last dps spot in our group permanently.

When taking a pug that we likely won't see or hear from again, why not be selective to ensure we have the most tools at our disposal. If we run a full premade group, then we make it work with what we have and have fun and laughs over discord while doing so.

[Jastall]

Eh? Warriors are pretty decent in M+ as of now. Both Arms and Fury bring good damage and decent utility like Spell Reflect or Piercing Howl. Obviously they're not as good as FOTM classes like Balance and MM, but that only matters for very high keys. As Fury I've not had that much trouble getting in keys myself.

[Omedon]

Ahahaha.
I've pugged my way to M 10-11s so far, which by the way isn't impressive at all. But if I can do it then everybody can do it.
And that "wall" you are talking about can be climbed if you make your own group or if you play well so people want to group with you again.
So you are 100% in control of what you can achieve within this game.

Your "wall" is build by bricks of your own making and are named: incomptence, laziness and social ineptitude.
And the first step you need to take in order to break down this wall of your own making is to accept that you are bad at the game, identify your short-comings and start taking the first steps on the path of becoming a better player, a player that other people want to play with.

I have no doubt that you are very good at WoW, but the tone of your response kinda shows your projection in calling me socially inept.

WoW hasn't needed "skill" to feel fulfilled for a couple expansions now, especially now in Shadowlands, and so yeah, it's become a chill game for me. Could I apply "skill" and perhaps climb an arbitrary "dot eye oh" ladder? Probably. Is it a worthwhile use of my time with soft gear resets every 6 months? Not to me. I'd rather see all four stories and chase transmogs with the sense of inevitable respect for my time that newer modes allow for. I've put my time in "trying hard," but the modern game doesn't require it for my sense of fulfilment, so I don't.

I'm just out here attempting to provide the enlightenment I've achieved observing trends in the game and enjoying myself owning my time, as opposed to loaning it to others.

It's wonderful that you have PUG'ed your way has high as you have, good for you! But for every one of you there are frustrated others, and even chill others like me that deserve to see some cogent validation from time to time, and if that validation lights up other people's viewpoint, that's a bonus!

I've got plenty of friends, we just don't have aligning schedules, and I work a swing shift, so I've adapted, and I do see a big shift in intent the moment one crosses over from game-curated modes (LFD, LFR, covenant campaigns, World Quests) to player-curated modes (M+, Rated PVP, arena, raiding above LFR).

Just my opinion, trying to open some eyes here. People can be happy if they adjust their goals. It's just a game, not the real world rat race of ambition and self-fulfilment.

[thunderdragon2]

Yeah well, I already gave up on playing DPS. It's literally impossible to find groups at ilvl 205 so I'm just tanking and leveling a mage.

im sorry for you having to give up on what you love being warr dps, that being said i wont invite them to my grp for 2 simple reasons, they just tunnel and take too much dmg that's what noticed when doing m0's and +2-5s with them so i just ignore them when i go for higher, you get the rare one that is good on interrupting and avoiding dmg.

i play bm hunter as main im trying to raise my score but even if i time all 10s i still wont be taken because im not mm....

[Greyvax]

(And DPS Warriors could Shockwave)

i really miss having shockwave as dps. it gave us immense usefulness in mythic+

i can only assume it got removed because of the pvp crybabies

[Matthias]

Indeed. If one of the friends I usually do keys with mained a DPS warrior, we would still bring him because we are after all, friends. If we happen to meet a DPS warrior in some dungeon or whatever scenario that vibes with us, it'd be fine for him to fill the last dps spot in our group permanently.

When taking a pug that we likely won't see or hear from again, why not be selective to ensure we have the most tools at our disposal. If we run a full premade group, then we make it work with what we have and have fun and laughs over discord while doing so.

I have friends that are DPS Warriors. I DPS offspec on my aswell in case our group composition calls for it with the people we have online. And for the first time ever I look at that Brown unit frame and think.....wish it was a Death Knight.

The best thing i think DPS Warriors have going from them is that they make the best Off Tanks with Die by The Sword when things go south. I believe they're also unique in the that they have access to Active Mitigation outside of Protection Spec with Shield Block. I think Paladins have Shield of the Righteousness as well.

[msdos]

Ahahaha.
Your "wall" is build by bricks of your own making and are named: incomptence, laziness and social ineptitude.
And the first step you need to take in order to break down this wall of your own making is to accept that you are bad at the game, identify your short-comings and start taking the first steps on the path of becoming a better player, a player that other people want to play with.

So someone is incompetent, lazy and socially inept because they don't want to spend 5 hours a day pugging boring dungeons? How did you come up with that?

[T-34]

IO score matters a whole lot more for M+, I have a dogshit awful score and have to prove myself, but I'm always top dps for like 95% of the run and surprise everyone.

And does it happen once in a while that those people ask you if you want to do another dungeon with them?
Maybe even the key you just upgraded?

[saixilein]

You couldn't be more wrong. Literally.

If u dont have very high itemlevel and/or high rioscore you have a hard time to find a m+ run higher then +6. Sometimes im looking for like 30 Minutes and get declined for every single dungeon. Sometimes u get whispers like "cAn yOu TaNk?"