So lemme get this straight

[schwarzkopf]

WTF are you talking about?

It is simple - fixed sized raiding excluded a huge chunk of people from raiding, and no LFR did as well.

Until fixed sized raiding occurred - or people outgeared the raid so fewer people could go to a raid - raiding was not open to the majority.

That's just a limitation of the way raids ran back then... was just the reality.

[VinceVega]

Most iconic character of this game in WoLK
Arthas being a menace during all level experience
Almost perfect Lore
Northrend best region ever. Not too long, easy to cross aroung, nice songs, good theme, not that crap full of mobs like maw
Dalaran better city this game have
Classes much more unique, good pvp, wpvp and pve
Ulduar best raid this game ever had, ToC some ppl love it (me) some ppl dont, much better dungeons
and more important, the community back there were much much better than now

I agree with most of it.
Lore was.... meh... sometimes there have been jumps you could not really follow. For people who did not play WC3 (which many people in wow did not) The story was stupid. Lich King has a weird fluctuation in his power level. Why the hell are we at war with the other faction if the Lich king is that big of a threat? etc pp

Dungeons have been so good. I still remember them fondly. I think they would really make good m+ dungeons actually..

Raids... Ulduar was AMAZING. So good. So fun. ICC was great. Good finale. Many "bloat" bosses. Other raids have been forgettable or just bad.

Northrend itself was good because it was consistent. You did not have a junlge directly next to a swamp and a jungle. But overall it was a bit boring. Howling Fjords and stormpeaks are one of the best zones ever... the rest... meh again.

Classes. idk. I don't think they are bad right now tbh.

PvP. Who gives a shit. It is wow. PvP was always bad. Fun for casuals. Bad for higher stuff. There has not been one point in the games history where the pvp crowd did not whine about the state of pvp.

I was sick of Dalaran quite fast tbh. Just a few empty towers with nothing in it. yay. Modern versions are better in every way. Granted SL is missing something like a big city. Maybe something is comeing in the future. But the cities in BFA and Legion have been better in every way. Unless your goal is only to get from point a to pint b as fast as possible.... but then you could just slap one NPC in a hut with all the roles and it would be perfect for you. (not you personally, you in general... you knoe what i mean )

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You got 251/264 gear from emblems of frost

I was also on illidan, got all the hardmodes and ToGC 25/10, no mounts though

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we considering utgarde keep and utgarde pinnacle 2 different dungeons?
Cus I dunno, reused tileset dungeons irk me, did in tbc, did in wotlk.


I guess if you consider coilfang reservoir 3 dungeons and a raid instead of 1 dungeon you get more raw numbers, but are 3 dungeons with the same mobs and hallways really 3 dungeons?

In the end yes.
After seeing the dungeons 10 times you don't give a shit about the tileset anymore. Just the mechanics.
Translate that to shadowlands. Imgaine having 3 dungeons of every tileset. With different bosses. Damn Mythic+ would be way more intersting. I am allready sick of running them tbh.

AND i really liked the most of the dungeons in BC. Mechanar botanica and arcatraz are still in my top 10 of dungeons. Botanica on place 1. LOVE it. Did not give a flying f about them reusing the assets. I actually liked it because the dungeons themselves have been nealy a own zone.

[ldev]

the same ulduar with yogg, mimiron, flame leviathan, ignis? lmao
the same ulduar that had abysmal participation rates until toc?
the same ulduar that people are clueless about in tw?

couldn't be the same ulduar lmao

So it's not awesome, because it was... difficult? It was awesome, because it was one raid. You wanted heroic - you pushed the big red button. Or dpsed the hearth hard. Not some fucking toggle in UI. Lore was fantastic, mechanics for the time were fantastic. lmao "clueluess in tw" - well, if they want ilvl 200 gear, that means they are stuck in brain dead difficulty in CN, no shit they fail.

Dungeons - yeah, pretty meh. But there were many and very nice to gear up before setting foot in raid. Not like you had to do them for more than two weeks, there wasn't mythic treadmill, so that's why they were great. Much variety and didn't get fucking boring.

Arthas - best villain. Appearing during questing. Compared to all other expansions - in Cata DW flew and burned ground. Zero fucking effort. In later expansions - I had no idea who we were fighting, I was just there doing random shit in random zones.

[Shaqthefat]

ok lets go over why these things dont matter



1) nax, while in this day "reusing content" is a shitty prasctice we hate, back then people didnt care, and many people were extremly excited, because a majority of the playerbase did not get to do naxx when it was current, this was their first time, even if it was "shitty recycle of a raid"


2) ulduar 10 man was easy enough for most people to play, they didnt need to wait till ToC, of course the 25 man hardmodes were locked for MANY till later in the expansion, but the base raid in 10 and even 25 was very doable for most players even in pugs

3) TOC was actually a polirizing raid, many people loved the theme, and loved the whole thing of fighting in 1 room, especially with ZERO trash, so it was actually seen as a decent raid, while it had a lot that sucked, it had a lot that was great, no travel, no trash, just boss fights.

"One of the major content patches was good"
lol what? ICC and ulduar were both amazing, thats ATLEAST 2, let alone the rest.

also welfare gear was always a thing in wotlk from the very start, it was called badge gear, it even existed in TBC, although not to the same extent.

wotlk also had most peoples favorite time in PVP, it was before every class got tons of CC, and when pvp combat took a bit, you wernt burst down and died instantly, it took a bit, but at the same time not TOO LONG, it was a great time for pvp, there was skill, and there was expertise, there were meta classes, but if you didnt play meta you wernt burst down in half a second, nor were you cc'd the entire match as your party member just died.

ICC wasn't amazing lets be honest. The memory of ICC is carried hard by the Lich King fight which was an amazing fight, even though progression sucked due to the wipe limit.

[gutnbrg]

the same ulduar with yogg, mimiron, flame leviathan, ignis? lmao
the same ulduar that had abysmal participation rates until toc?
the same ulduar that people are clueless about in tw?

couldn't be the same ulduar lmao

u had a problem with mimiron? ur like the only person i think

[Count Zero]

You gotta look at context. Wrath wrapped up storylines going back to WCIII. I'd say it was the last of the truly linear story beats from the original RTS games, and I think that's why the Classic revival will stop at a trilogy with Wrath.

[Whitedragon]

I will concede that welfare existed in tbc, but wotlk made welfare play a viable playstyle

log in, grind easy 200 il heroics for a couple hours, log out with full 232 gear.

you couldn't do that in tbc.

Ya true in BC you had to show up to arena for a few hours to get your free welfares... lets not pretend that that wasn't a major griping point of the "hardcore" raiders back then... "toughs filthy casuals getting epics... EPICS!!! from pvp... and not even that much of it.... the nerve!"

[kaminaris]

Indeed, back then most people were excluded from all the raid content.

LK was just considered the best because it was a massive leap from BC.

Recent expansions have been objectively better in terms of the amount one has to do than LK, the problem is that some of those expansions didn't move 'up' from the previous one (e.g. BfA was lower than Legion).

Thats not entirely true. First of all wotlk had 10 man raids. That alone was almost like M+ is now considering that overall difficulty was way lower even on heroic.

I have some friends that raided in wotlk but would be absolutely unable to do so in modern expansions, not because of lack of time but because of lack of skills.

Leap was there for sure but it's not what made people rose tinted glasses. The big picture was: so story, good AND accessible raids, accessible gear, accesible dungeons.

[Caerule]

Never really was a huge fan of Wrath, but I liked three things.

1. Overarching villain that we actually got to see a lot.
2. Big zones. It's probably the last expansion that had so much expansive empty terrain to explore that was visually gorgeous, and not just a bunch of quest hubs stacked against each other. I suppose we got some of that in MoP, but overall things have just felt smaller since TBC and Wrath.
3. Having fame. For the first time, there were NPCs that actually knew who your character was, in a few places. This was novel and nice to see back then. We've gone too far the other side now. Where last expansion we were the One True Savior of Azeroth. And in this expansion, of all mortal afterlives. But it was a nice progression for my character after being some nobody through Classic and TBC.

[Whitedragon]

ICC wasn't amazing lets be honest. The memory of ICC is carried hard by the Lich King fight which was an amazing fight, even though progression sucked due to the wipe limit.

Very disingenuous of you to only list the Lichking as memorable, many of the fights in there still hold a place in peoples memories.

[GnomeEU]

People put wotlk on a pedestal which had

1) naxx10/25
2) Ulduar which wasn't playable to most people till ToC
3) ToC

as one of the best expansions? literally one of the 4 major content patches were "good"

I don't get it. Dungeon finder/welfare gear only happened in ICC patch, when was wotlk this fantastic experience? genuinely curious.

Dude naxx 25 was freelot. There was this 3 add dragon fight. And that was basically all the content of s1.

[Restors]

I'm sure this is confusing to most modern WoW players who expect dungeon runs to take no more than 10 minutes, raids to be cleared in a couple of hours, and gear to be handed to them weekly for very little effort. But old WoW (Vanilla - Wrath at least) wasn't for that type of attitude.

Oh the irony, it was WotLK that started the whole ZERG mentality in WoW. Sure, there were some dungeons in wrath that you had to pay attention to, but it was mostly just AoE fest.

No one went back to Naxx when ulduar / toc came out. Same thing with ICC, ulduar / toc were a distant memory when ICC were current. If you were in a guild that were progressing ICC but went back to ulduar for weekly farm clear, than your guild is an exception. No one did it.

Any bad thing you see in Shadowlands, Wrath started the path for it (except for mission tables, thats MoP's fault).

[schwarzkopf]

Thats not entirely true.

Well obviously, that's why 'most' was used in my statement ... without any flexibility, the raiding was very restricted - never said entirely or everyone.

[baseballfan]

must've not played. didn't matter the content. Every spec was the most fun it has even been to play.

[kaminaris]

Well obviously, that's why 'most' was used in my statement ... without any flexibility, the raiding was very restricted - never said entirely or everyone.

Restricted? No, raiding back then was most accessible that has ever been. Because of 10 man and because of low difficulty bar.

[muto]

Too much good to list it all. My favorite probably being Ulduar, Naxx, and 10 man raiding.

[mysticx]

People put wotlk on a pedestal which had

1) naxx10/25
2) Ulduar which wasn't playable to most people till ToC
3) ToC

as one of the best expansions? literally one of the 4 major content patches were "good"

I liked WotLK, there was progression for me all through the expansion, with justice and valor... badges? emblems? I don't remember, i could work towards gear slowly but steadily, never having that "Well, that afternoon was totally wasted..."-feeling.

You only look at the raids, while the vast majority of players never actually set foot in any of them, that's why your opinion differs from the commonly held one. (The "Welfare gear"-remark is a hint too)

[tommyhil622]

I think a lot of people who don't appreciate Wotlk, weren't vanilla wow players or came late in the game or never played Wotlk.

You can nitpick the expansion but by far it was the best regardless of what this thread says. It was the height of wow and it's never been matched, not even debatable.

[Poppincaps]

Ulduar and ICC are two of the best raids ever made and still hold up today. Classes and specs started to get more fleshed out playstyles, personally Wrath ArPen MM is my favorite iteration of a Hunter spec in the entire game. The story was well told throughout the entire expansion. It did start to make the game more casual in some aspects, but the effects of that weren't really felt until late Cata.

[leggomydairy]

It’s always weird to me how much people love it nowadays. I joined the game like within a week or two of its launch, so I was part of the “Wrath babies” crowd that got shat on for joining the game in 08. All I ever saw were complains about rehashed raid (Naxx), “catering to casuals,” DK OP, and LFG when it was implemented.