SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[bagina]

I get why you don't like the scene but could it be that you dont like it because Anduin is in it? And not that it's bad writing or content? I'm not a fan of Anduin either but I get what they are going for here. He's not saving Slyvanas or Slyvanas isn't feeling guilty. She's been tasked to do what Arthas did to her. I assume that's a Mourne Blade. The only difference here is what Anduin mentions. This is not the first time Anduin tries to get inside of her head. A similar convo happened back in BFA when he confronted her in the the ruins of Lorderon.

- - - Updated - - -

Im more curious about other things within the cinematic like the Jailer opening a portal to get that shard. And if they are intending to steal Anduin's soul in similar way that happened with Arthas.

Oh yes, I make no secret of my increasing dislike of Anduin. But I also dislike this scene because of how Sylvanas was acting in it. Her getting the jitters from some shitty speech now just makes her look weak-willed and clueless, the opposite to how she's been past those few expansions. If that's all it takes to shake her resolve then it makes all that she's done even more ridiculous. Anduin shouldn't be the person to get under her skin, there are way better candidates. She shouldn't have a reason to care what he has to say.

[darkoms]

Actually your beef is probably with the other writers who have more creative control on Sylvanas, like Alex Afrasiabi

People really need to stop blaming Golden like she is the sole writer of WoW. She isn't even a head writer. Afrasiabi oversees the creative direction of the franchise in the writing department (well him and I think there are a few more). ITs up to Golden and the rest of the team of writers to them put that into a story.

Some of you people here really need to learn what creative writing is.

Danuzer is king now
Afrasiabi leave Blizzard...

[Geotaku21]

I would not be surprised if the Jailer makes Thrall, Blaine, Jaime, and Anduin his 4 horseman and all wield a mourneblade.

[tommyhil622]

The creative process for any business is awful regardless, I would hate to write for video games lol. :P

Yea I people don't realize how difficult it is to create stories for mmos. I also don't understand some of the invented "intent" or "lack of dedication" people keep contriving based on the lore they don't like. Warcraft has always been cheesy and gimmicky and silly. It's not a new thing.

[Mehrunes]

really? then who is head creative writer now?

Might be Steve Danuser?

EDIT: Well it says 'lead narrative designer and senior game designer' So he might be head of creative?

There is no senior creative director credited for Shadowlands. It used to be Afrasiabi's gig, but he's only credited as "other leadership" (because he was likely sacked, which is also why both Afrasiabi and Blizzard have been completely silent about someone so high up leaving the company).

[tommyhil622]

Oh yes, I make no secret of my increasing dislike of Anduin. But I also dislike this scene because of how Sylvanas was acting in it. Her getting the jitters from some shitty speech now just makes her look weak-willed and clueless, the opposite to how she's been past those few expansions. Anduin shouldn't be the person to get under her skin, there are way better candidates. She shouldn't have a reason to care what he has to say.

I hear ya. I just think we underestimate what the shadowlands and the maw does to people. She and others are open to things that wouldn't normally happen in the "mortal realms".

[Harbour]

That moment when two people at Blizzard clashed the characters they simp for (Danuser for Sylvanas and Golden for Anduin). Result is pretty disgusting. Anduin Naruto level speech got onto Sylvanas mind to show the glimpse of future redemption. Really? What the hell is that shit?

[bagina]

That moment when two people at Blizzard clashed the characters they simp for (Danuser for Sylvanas and Golden for Anduin). Result is pretty disgusting. Anduin Naruto level speech got onto Sylvanas mind to show the glimpse of future redemption. Really? What the hell is that shit?

Let me tell you I'm a pretty disgusting Sylvanas fan, but this thing is the opposite of what I'd want for her character. This is bad for fans and haters alike. I mean the butthurt from nelf fans is kinda funny but that's about it. I don't like where this is going at all.

[Darknessvamp]

What makes Arthas sometimes crazy and obsessed about Sylvanas was, as Kel'Thuzad stated, the fact that she was a mirror image of himself - proud, honorable, person people believe in, person people hope for. She failed in their way, as Rhaegar Targaryen did, as the honorable always fails. She gave this cruel lesson to Night Elves, because she is trapped in her past and everytime someone is reminding her of her old life is making a point that makes Sylvanas suffer.
But Delaryn wasn't Anduin. Why?
Anduin isn't a golden boy, although his role is seemingly important to be a mirror image. Delaryn was reminding her of her previous life, but in Anduin she sees herself from old, the Ranger General who didn't have a choice. She starts to see herself as Arthas (at last!) and she isn't really fond of it. Anduin was her true rival, yet the rival she was so similar to her that she couldn't resist but to comply with him, even unwillingly.
Anduin is looking in her eyes, not begging, not taunting, but clearly speaking words she could speak too in his place if she was still alive. She's not. She crossed the point of no return. She won't be Ranger General anymore. She won't be a hero. She won't be redeemed.
But she can do a two steps back and help him, sealing her fate. That won't make her person everyone loves, it still makes her villain, but a tragic one, one that couldn't let go of the past, even trying so hard, but the past is looking in her eyes.
Sorry, I am a literature teacher, I have something with these analysis. You're free to disagree though!

I would have to disagree though, Sylvanas did have a choice, defend her people or flee with the evacuees. She chose to stay and help and unfortunately she wasn't enough to rebuke the undead. Yes she didn't have a choice when risen into undeath but she was then presented with another when the Lich King's power waned and grasped it when the opportunity arose. I also find it funny that you claim Delaryn cause Sylvanas to "suffer" despite the fact that helping her remaining people who became blood elves, embracing the memories of her past and pining for interaction with her sisters was all part of her "old life" and yet they were ever present and didn't cause her to "suffer" ... welll until BfA that is. What cruel lesson was that? I'll burn your home down if you believe in hope? How poignant. Despite the fact it had been her plan to occupy Teldrassil up till that point.

Also Anduin is definitely the Golden Boy and definitely isn't a mirror of Sylvanas. He's being characterised as the morally superior one here, he's talking from the point and understanding that Sylvanas is crazed, that her logic is flawed, that her motives are false and her confidence is non-existent in herself and whatever grand scheme she has gone all in despite its massive scale and grand machinations and all while he's currently in a position of imprisonment (to give the sense he isn't actually i.e. "I'm not stuck here with you, you're stuck in here with me" especially as made clear by how he won't accept whatever Sylvanas is asking for him and is explicitly taunting her for not having the conviction to do otherwise). But at the same time he's making it clear that she can have redemption, not in the sense she will be loved by all but by giving up her plans and investment and whatever it is she is working towards and embraces Anduin's Law. Because that is all that matters, that Anduin is right.

[OokOok]

So WoW's an Anime now? Wtf

Can our/some characters get Stands at least?

"now" you obviously never saw us kill N'zoth with a kamehameha

[Mehrunes]

I get why you don't like the scene but could it be that you dont like it because Anduin is in it? And not that it's bad writing or content? I'm not a fan of Anduin either but I get what they are going for here. He's not saving Slyvanas or Slyvanas isn't feeling guilty. She's been tasked to do what Arthas did to her. I assume that's a Mourne Blade. The only difference here is what Anduin mentions. This is not the first time Anduin tries to get inside of her head. A similar convo happened back in BFA when he confronted her in the the ruins of Lorderon.

A rock would see what they are going for here because they have no comprehension of the concept of subtlety. And just like the previous cinematic about the two it is bad writing because it achieves the purpose it wants to achieve by ignoring bits of Sylvanas' lore going all the way back to goddamn W3. Sylvanas was never some kind of libertarian champion of free will for all. She only ever applied it to herself and the Forsaken being free from the sway of the Lich King.

Non-Forsaken, especially her enemies? She not only did not give a shit out whether they had free will, but actively violated it if it was needed for her to achieve her goals. She had her Banshees mind-control a bunch of living survivors of Scourge's rampage, she allowed RAS to parade lobotomized human servants in her capital, she abused the resurrection frenzy of the violently slain, she tried to torture Koltira into becoming less of a human lover, she tried to brainwash Derek into killing his own family. And it's not even like she was sliding down on a slippery slope here, because the worst offender against free will here is the one that's the chronologically earliest example.

Anduin becoming a pawn for the Jailer (you know, like all the souls that ended in Maw because of Arbiter going offline as that's what the Jailer does to the souls in his domain, including the smorgasboard of souls sent there because of her own actions) should be par for the course, not the great moral quandary these cinematics try to present it as.

Also, despite the utterly forced parallel to Sylvanas and the Lich King going all the way to a mourneblade in order for them to go all "'member Arthas? 'member Frostmourne?", Frostmourne isn't what made Sylvanas a slave to begin with. Frostmourne was just a tool that killed her. It could have just as well been an exploding Abomination that killed her. It's the Helm of Domination that turned her into a puppet. Likewise, it was ultimately the Lich King who did so, with Arthas at this point being his minion as well (especially after more recent pieces of lore pivoted towards Arthas having no control over his actions at this point) and only acting as a conduit for Lich King's will. Making this masterpiece a case of rather misguided imagery.

Finally, Anduin didn't try to get into Sylvanas' head at Lordaeron at all. All he said amounted to declaring his victory and demanding her surrender, lest she be slain. If anyone was playing mind games there it'd be Sylvanas with her mockery.

[OCoyne]

I thought it was obvious from the 1st cinematic that they were writing a redemption story for Sylvanas but at this stage you've gotta be pretty braindead not to realise it now.

There's 2 key elements of this cinematic which were subtle;

A) The Jailer doesn't care if his allies fall to the Heroes, that's a pretty big hint
B) The reforged Shalamayne bear the same rune markings as Frostmourne and she hasn't realised it yet.

That and we know that Kel'Thuzad is an ally of the Jailer, it's now a story of Sylvanas is nothing more than a pawn and she doesn't know yet.

I'm pretty convinced Anduin doesn't survives* this however but Sylvanas does.


When I say doesn't survive I mean the Jailer runs out of patience and does the job himself sucking the light out of him turning him into a Void Conduit thus creating the Void-themed expansion which has been highly touted.

[bagina]

It's not about redemption it's about how it's handled. The way things are unfolding makes Sylvanas look like a massive retard I mean MASSIVE, with zero insight, self-reflection or basic critical thinking skills. You're not redeeming her, you're making her into a pathetic shit that you kill out of pity. In what world would Sylvanas enter into alliance with someone like Jailer without at least anticipating him to act the way he does, in what world would Sylvanas not expect him to be pursuing his own ends first and foremost, in what world would Sylvanas not comprehend the severity of her actions and act surprised when some baby boy points out the obvious to her. I could go on...

[Arbs]

I understand it gives more character, but the one thing I've dreaded is Kerrigan-Like redemption for Sylvanas. Make her the Lich Queen anything that prevents her from being redeemed. Let me end her or at least imprison her at the bottom of Torghast forever.

[OCoyne]

It's not about redemption it's about how it's handled. The way things are unfolding makes Sylvanas look like a massive retard I mean MASSIVE, with zero insight, self-reflection or basic critical thinking skills. You're not redeeming her, you're making her into a pathetic shit that you kill out of pity. In what world would Sylvanas enter into alliance with someone like Jailer without at least anticipating him to act the way he does, in what world would Sylvanas not expect him to be pursuing his own ends first and foremost, in what world would Sylvanas not comprehend the severity of her actions and act surprised when some baby boy points out the obvious to her. I could go on...

This is the absolute opposite of what is true.

She does what she's doing because it's what she believes her purpose in life is. That's why she threw himself off Icecrown when Arthas died, her purpose in life had gone.
She now self-reflects on her enslavement with Arthas and believes everyone should follow the same path, and that's to live without choice.

If anything, she's self-reflecting a bit too much for everyone's liking. Hence why when Anduin mentions her days as the Banshee Queen or the Ranger General she starts to crack up in both cinematics now.

When she realises Kel'Thuzad is an ally of the Jailer and was instrumental of the forging of Frostmourne(retcon) She will realise she's allied with the orchestra of her living a life without choice.

It's 1000000% a redemption atc.


As the above poster wrote while I was typing which I thought which was clever, it's very much a Kerrigan story from SC2.

[Halfaheart]

Wow they give us a (datamined?) dialogue and storytelling with a cool cinematic and yet, the floodgates are full of tears. Maybe let the expansion play out before you cry about the outcomes you create in your head.

OT: thought it was interesting but I still don't see a redemption arc coming. We have this expansion for 2 years and 3 more content patches. They're not going to do anything drastic like kill off a main alliance character a month and a half into it

[tommyhil622]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=320284/...of-january-4th

<Thrall's brow is furrowed.> We were speaking with the Highlord when he was struck by a jolt of agony. He said he could see something stirring in the Maw. Inside the Jailer's tower. The pain seems to be getting worse. We need to find out what he's sensing.

A Mourneblade Born: Discuss the vision with Bolvar and the others.

While his father was missing, I cared for Anduin like a son. To see him like that, at the mercy of Sylvanas... <Bolvar's eyes flare with fire.> Something must be done. Take a moment. Let me know when you are ready to discuss what comes next.

The Jailer's Grasp: Help Jaina Proudmoore sever the Jailer's connection to Bolvar

By peering into the Maw, Bolvar drew the Jailer's attention. His worst fears have come to pass. You must help me break the link, <name>! The fragment of the Helm is the key!

https://www.wowhead.com/news=320283/...vanas-spoilers

Here we see the aftermath of Sire Denathrius' defeat in Revendreth, as the Jailer forces Sylvanas to take a more-direct approach in recruiting Anduin to the cause. Wielding what appears to be reforged Shalamayne, the weapon of Varian Wrynn, Sylvanas reluctantly goes to Anduin, who won't easily give in.

We're not sure when this cinematic is accessible in game, but we speculate it is tied to opening Twisting Corridors, which some users were able to unlock this week due to quest bugs allowing further progression in the Torghast storyline. Edit: after reviewing RedeF1N3D's user data and new quest uploads, this cinematic plays as part of the final Torghast questline leading into Twisting Corridors.
Sylvanas and The Jailer oversee a Mawsworn crafting a weapon.

Sylvanas: Sire Denathrius has been taken prisoner. What is our plan to recover him?
Jailer: Every soul has its purpose. Denathrius has fulfilled his.
Jailer: We must forge our next weapon.
Sylvanas: He is not ready.
Jailer: Then a more direct approach is necessary. We have not come this far for you to falter now. You know what must be done.


The scene changes to Anduin, still kept prisoner. Sylvanas approaches.

Anduin: Ah... there she is again. You know, these endless lectures of yours...
Sylvanas: ... have failed to convince you. Regardless, the conversation is over. One way or another, we will have have you.
Sylvanas: So I will offer this... one last time. Join our cause, or be made to serve.
Anduin: What kind of choice is that? Why even give me...
Anduin: ... It's the choice you never had. Despite all your grand designs, there's still some shred of your mortality haunting you. As if the Banshee Queen hasn't entirely eclipsed the Ranger-General.
Sylvanas: Don't.
Anduin: Now I understand why you brought me here. Why you tried so hard to persuade me. Because if you can get me to let go of hope, you finally can too.
Sylvanas: Enough!

Sylvanas points a weapon at Anduin, which looks very similar to a runeforged version of Shalamayne.

Sylvanas: Submit! You are only making this harder on yourself.
Anduin: Not harder on me... right now, you, with all the power... how would you use it?
Sylvanas: I've not come this far to falter now.
Anduin: Then why do you hesitate?
Anduin: Make your choice, Sylvanas Windrunner.

The cinematic ends with a standoff between Anduin and Sylvanas, in a pose reminiscent of Arthas with Frostmourne. Do you think Sylvanas goes ahead with the Jailer's plan, or backs down after the camera fades to black? It really does look like the Jailer is trying to turn Anduin down a similar path as Arthas. And we can start to see some cracks in Sylvanas' unerring confidence, as she's very hesitant to follow the Jailer's orders.

[Super Dickmann]

@Ilyiana

I mean, the narrative forgave Illidan for putting the slaves he'd racked up in Outland into soul engines to open portals and unlike the souls that go to the Maw, those didn't even have the potential of salvation. What makes Teldrassil unique isn't even the moral dimension of what is done so much as that it was done to a playable race in the game's lifespan and the sheer amount of narrative pathos and focus that was wrung out of it for two whole years. Those Illidan spaced were unplayable (and also ugly). The good thing about Illidan's route mind, was that at the end when he did try to explain himself to Malf and Tyrande they blew him off, while others like the Illidari stuck true. Even opening the portal to Argus pissed Khadgar off. While the narrative was overall on his side, it allowed other positive characters to disagree with him, even after his plan basically worked out. This is the least that needs to be done re: Sylvanas, setting aside any writing issue.

With the perspective she's shown, it's not hard to see how she justifies her own actions to herself. She says that no one has a choice and that life itself is temporary compared to death. We know that you change irrevocably in death and even the good afterlives eventually turn you into a totally different person. And you, or rather the soul that was you, will be that person for much, much longer than you ever were yourself while alive. Under her perspective, the grand majority of your existence is used to decide your role in a system of the afterlife propagating itself and you will lose yourself eventually. Given that, what does it particularly matter whether you're depersonalized then or now and if you're going to be a resource and changed beyond repair, you might as well do it for a good purpose, i.e hers of changing the Shadowlands. After all, if she succeeds, she can fix you up anyway and reverse the damage, and if she fails, then it makes no difference since you'd have been someone's tool and be changed/repurposed to something wildly different before too long anyway.

That worldview is perfectly coherent to this incarnation of the character, but the crucial point is that other characters must oppose it. The reasons can be for all sorts of things - it can be disagreeing with the idea that the afterlife is broken and that moving on is part of existence and that a change might sound good but end up much worse. It could be agreeing about the need for a change, but that it's easy to talk about how transitory existence and suffering are if she's on the inflicting end and not the one actually burning to death and then being picked apart by the Jailer's minions. It could also be because her plan is stupid - trusting a dude called the Jailer to use his cosmic army of tortured slaves to make the afterlife better rather than worse is a really dumb idea. Or it could be a combination of them, like Anduin's combination of calling her a dupe of the Jailer, the narrative showing he's the one telling her to hurry along, but also that this is as much a coping mechanism for her and wanting to be validated on how many she threw under the bus to get where she is, so a version of the second argument.

What's important is that these positions are aired and cast positively, and uniquely to Sylvanas vs. someone like Illidan, that at some point whatever she seeks to accomplish is meaningfully flustered by those she wronged. The most tolerable version of a 'redemption' story regarding Sylvanas is for her plan, ultimately for the better in the eyes of her and others or not, be foiled by all those she hurt and killed to get into the position she was to execute it, resulting in some restoring their positive view of her in story and continuing with what she tried to do. Others would be glad to have put one of the worst enemies of their people down and either consider her goal to have been as evil as the means or don't care about her goal at all in light of what she did to make it possible. Hence setting up a lot of good future conflict.

[Sondrelk]

The datamined cinematic does seem to be a damning case of a Sylvanas redemption arc being made, however that still presupposes that she does not turn Anduin, which at this point I feel is unlikely.

I must say though, I really like this Anduin, I hope we keep getting this magical combination of snark and sheer optimism.
Anduin never managed to be that interesting because his optimism always undercut whatever good point he (or the writers) were trying to make. However, here he instead is alllowed to be both optimistic AND act like a standin for the audience. The Snark he exhibits to Syllvanas is really refreshing to see from his character.


Back on the topic of Sylvnaas redemption though. I guess it might be foolish to hope Blizzard will go for making the story better by actually commiting to Sylvanas being evil when there might be those that think it is good fanservice to give her a redemption.
I guess one can only hope that the fanservice of her redemption is not given in favor of the far more compelling fansr vice of seeing her double down on evil and then be killed forever.

[Auxis]

i really liked this, but im reserving judgment until they give me full sylvanas+jailer context. im a huge character fan and i wanted them to give her a dazzling fabulous death in SL, not redeem her, but i am willing to go along with this for the moment. there's a lot more to say, and for those who don't think this was logical, anduin is the only person who's ever tried to talk to his enemies in warcraft instead of just murdering on sight. his father actually learned that from him. anduin is probably the only person to talk to sylvanas like a person, not like a banshee, since arthas ruined her life. even her own sisters didn't talk to her the same way. nathanos is irrelevant since he just served her without questions.

someone on the writing team finally remembered lament of the highborne and the fact that an entire life was ripped away from this person. i'm into it, but if it doesn't get fleshed out more, it's going to be really dumb. there's a few avenues they can take, i hope they take a good one. im still loving SL lore to death (lol)

I have a feeling that the Jailer just see's Sylvanas as another soul in his vast army. If he considers Denathrius' death - someone who was instrumental in getting the Jailer all of that anima - as meh, then I can't see him considering Sylvanas, an above average mortal, as anything more than a pawn.