So lemme get this straight

[leorana]

1) Naxx 10 and 25 were fun. Yeah, sure, they were easy, and the loot was practically free, but... it was fun. That's it. And we also had Sarth (1,2&3d) and Malygos.
Achievements were brand new and you bet your ass we went for them! You know how satisfying it was to finally get The Immortal?

2) It was perfectly playable at release. My guild, at the time, wasn't heroic-capable in 25-man, but the normal fights were perfectly fine for even our lesser players. 10-man was even better, though, because we absolutely had a solid core 10 players. My server wasn't big, but we had plenty of guilds progressing through and clearing normal without issue in both sizes. You say that there was low participation, but that was absolutely not my experience. Maybe you were on a dead server?

3) Talk shit about ToC. Try it. What you got? Here's what I got:
The fights were unique. They did things that we hadn't seen before. Out of the 5 fights, there was really only one that was particularly boring, and that was the second boss. The first boss was good on normal and a nice challenge on heroic. The third boss was a PvP puzzle that, afaik, still stands as one of the most unique encounters in the game. The fourth boss hit players with the concept of bullet-hell and encouraged some innovating strategies. The fifth boss? I'm biased on the fifth boss, at least on heroic. Normal mode was whatever. For non-heroic players, it was fine, no complaints. But heroic was a raid-wide challenge. Add tanks had to have specific lower-level gear sets, heavy cooldown rotations required from a variety of raid members, resource conservation (the frost), pathing and positioning, and then an intentionally low-health war of attrition for the final phase.

It. Was. Awesome.

Oh, and no trash. No one likes trash and there was absolutely none of it. No one ever gives the raid the respect it deserves.

I liked it too. Only problem I had with it is how stupid it is there's a looming Arthad threat, and the argent crusade has time and means for a fancy tournament.

[Doffen]

To me, WotLK is highly overrated. It had my favorite raid, Ulduar, so I remember that with nostalgia, but the rest of it, not that good.

Going from TBC it was a huge letdown, and there was a lot of complaints about just that back then, how WotLK made everything so casual.

[cparle87]

I liked it too. Only problem I had with it is how stupid it is there's a looming Arthad threat, and the argent crusade has time and means for a fancy tournament.

Don't forget that all the outdoor zone content that came at launch canonically came before the Tournament. By this point we'd already wiped out all the Scourge outside of Icecrown. Then we cleared the southeast entrance area, made headway into the zone, had two flying gunships, siezed that northwest area for the Death Knights, wiped out the ymirjar in the center and west coasts, wiped out the Scarlet Onslaught, and even broken into the outer areas of ICC itself like the church.

Then don't forget the reasoning for the tournament. An all hands on deck invasion like we later did at the Broken Shore would've been disastrous for us as every fallen grunt would've become an enemy to fight. Taking time to handpick a crack team was a neccesary delay.

Also don't forget that Arthas deliberately let them do it, so he could snatch up Tirion's champions, kill them, and convert them. Which he would against attempt in his own battle in the raid.

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To me, WotLK is highly overrated. It had my favorite raid, Ulduar, so I remember that with nostalgia, but the rest of it, not that good.

Going from TBC it was a huge letdown, and there was a lot of complaints about just that back then, how WotLK made everything so casual.

Completely forgetting that WoW was popular in the first place BECAUSE it was casual compared to the other MMOs on the market.

[Shaqthefat]

"i dont think they are cool, therefore they were not cool"

Yeah not how it works.
also yeah those all were great fights, again "i didnt think they were cool, therefore they were not cool"

"I think they are cool, therefore they are cool"

This is also not how this works.
They were not great fights, again "I think they were cool, therefore they were cool"


Behold the magic and wonder of opinions. I think ICC is overrated, you don't.

[Ryonas]

The only thing that matters is the story, and WOtLK's storytelling was incredible.

[leorana]

ICC most certainly didn't have many amazing fights at all. Most of the fights were really boring. It did have some cool gear, but it wasn't loaded with it at all. While the pull limit wasn't new, it still is going to count in against the raid.

ICC fights boring? Did you try them when they were current?

How about introduction to hard modes for the first time? Sarth-3d, ulduar HM. Lk fight was also epic. Infest, defile, valks, traps, frozen orbs, using dispell on gouls...there was so much going on. Not to mention - NO Guild got LOD 0%.

[Shaqthefat]

ICC fights boring? Did you try them when they were current?

How about introduction to hard modes for the first time? Sarth-3d, ulduar HM. Lk fight was also epic. Infest, defile, valks, traps, frozen orbs, using dispell on gouls...there was so much going on. Not to mention - NO Guild got LOD 0%.

Ulduar and its hard modes were the overall peak of Wrath raiding. I thought and think that Lich King was an amazing fight, but I've never thought that the rest of ICC holds up that well at all.

[Kralljin]

Not to mention - NO Guild got LOD 0%.

We'll see how that will hold up in about 3-4 years.

Nevermind the fact that limited attempts in ICC were a massive curveball for progression, especially on the LK as in order to attempt that boss, you had to kill every boss on heroic, meaning that using alt raids to try out strats was ineffective.

[Addiena]

1) Not a lot of people actually experienced Naxx in vanilla so it was new to a lot
2) Ulduar was a awesome raid
3) ToC.....was ToC

WotLK was fun...classes were in a better place (hybrids like Enhancement and Retribution had some actual buttons to push and get some love for their magic damage)

WotLK overall was a nice expansion

Yup ToC was just a filler raid till ICC patch was ready, it got delayed due to how large it was.

[Drusin]

People put wotlk on a pedestal which had

1) naxx10/25
2) Ulduar which wasn't playable to most people till ToC
3) ToC

as one of the best expansions?

ToC is my favorite raid, 0 trash <3

when was wotlk this fantastic experience? genuinely curious.

Whenever people say it was for them

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A boss having silly quotes doesn't make them a good boss.

That's up to the person to decide, if I say "this is a good boss, I like how their armor looks" then hey, they're a good boss. There's no objective way to define "good boss" status.

[FelPlague]

"I think they are cool, therefore they are cool"

This is also not how this works.
They were not great fights, again "I think they were cool, therefore they were cool"


Behold the magic and wonder of opinions. I think ICC is overrated, you don't.

"I think it was, you dont" no most people dont. as obvious by the overwhelming opinions on iCC

You think its overrated. Most people do not.

[Doffen]

Completely forgetting that WoW was popular in the first place BECAUSE it was casual compared to the other MMOs on the market.

Completely forgetting that TBC and WotLK was highly different in that regard so opinions actually matters.

Not to mention from TBC announcement to WotLK launch WoW went from 4mill to 11.5. WoLK increased it with, 0.5 mill.

[FelPlague]

Completely forgetting that TBC and WotLK was highly different in that regard so opinions actually matters.

Not to mention from TBC announcement to WotLK launch WoW went from 4mill to 11.5. WoLK increased it with, 0.5 mill.

Lol you really gunna go "from tbc's ANNOUNCEMENT to wotlk" then compare "only wotlk"

you cant go

"Hey in these 4 years it went up this much, but in 2 minutes it only went up this much ,lol those 2 minutes were shit"


TBC went up from 8.5 to 11
wotlk went from 11 to 12.

nevermind the fact yeah... most of its player base joined the game when it was new, and as SIX YEARS came on the game, less and less players joined. it is a huge fucking surprise even after only 2 years the game didn't stop growing. no game continues to grow forever, i garuntee if you swapped wotlk and tbc order it would not change much if at all. cause the massive influx of players was not "this expansion is good" it was "there is this new game everyone is talking about!" About mid cata the game started becoming old news, MMO's were on the way out as the market became hugely saturated and the playstyle of players changed, they no longer wanted these games that took massive amounts of time of play for requirement.

[Relapses]

Completely forgetting that TBC and WotLK was highly different in that regard so opinions actually matters.

Not to mention from TBC announcement to WotLK launch WoW went from 4mill to 11.5. WoLK increased it with, 0.5 mill.

WoW hit market saturation in WotLK. TBC had more growth but that's only because it had more new players than those who left. WotLK had the same amount of new players as it did ones who left, hence market saturation. You can't really base an observation over which expansion was better simply based off of growth figures; moreover, if you go by these numbers, WotLK is the only expansion where the entirety of it had more than 10 million subscribers so regardless of the stagnation of growth it represents -- hands down -- the most unequivocally popular period for the game as a whole.

[Schattenlied]

2) Ulduar which wasn't playable to most people till ToC

Wut? /10chars

[Doffen]

Lol you really gunna go "from tbc's ANNOUNCEMENT to wotlk" then compare "only wotlk"

you cant go

"Hey in these 4 years it went up this much, but in 2 minutes it only went up this much ,lol those 2 minutes were shit"


TBC went up from 8.5 to 11
wotlk went from 11 to 12.

nevermind the fact yeah... most of its player base joined the game when it was new, and as SIX YEARS came on the game, less and less players joined. it is a huge fucking surprise even after only 2 years the game didn't stop growing. no game continues to grow forever, i garuntee if you swapped wotlk and tbc order it would not change much if at all. cause the massive influx of players was not "this expansion is good" it was "there is this new game everyone is talking about!" About mid cata the game started becoming old news, MMO's were on the way out as the market became hugely saturated and the playstyle of players changed, they no longer wanted these games that took massive amounts of time of play for requirement.

Talking about popularity.

TBC Announcement made a huge boost to the player base, it grew more than 30% in one quarter, the quarter TBC was announced, then DOUBLED the next year, then TRIPLE that q3 2005 numbers to WotLK launched.

When someone is trying to put down one's opinion with an opinion, then I can easily come with facts. It is kinda silly to try to even make one's opinion less worth with an opinion, at least when my opinion was shared with many, and lot of people quit in WotLK, hence the low increase in numbers in WotLK.

And like you say, 3million vs 0.5million. Doesn't really make your stand stronger. So L O L for sure. Discuss properly.

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WoW hit market saturation in WotLK. TBC had more growth but that's only because it had more new players than those who left. WotLK had the same amount of new players as it did ones who left, hence market saturation. You can't really base an observation over which expansion was better simply based off of growth figures; moreover, if you go by these numbers, WotLK is the only expansion where the entirety of it had more than 10 million subscribers so regardless of the stagnation of growth it represents -- hands down -- the most unequivocally popular period for the game as a whole.

Read above.

[FelPlague]

Talking about popularity.

TBC Announcement made a huge boost to the player base, it grew more than 30% in one quarter, the quarter TBC was announced, then DOUBLED the next year, then TRIPLE that q3 2005 numbers to WotLK launched.

When someone is trying to put down one's opinion with an opinion, then I can easily come with facts. It is kinda silly to try to even make one's opinion less worth with an opinion, at least when my opinion was shared with many, and lot of people quit in WotLK, hence the low increase in numbers in WotLK.

I love how you pretend the ONLY THING that happened during those times was TBC launch, but yeah sure... ignore the other stuff like idk.... Zul gurub... Arathi basin... The dragons of nightmare, Ruins of Aq, temple of AQ gates of AQ event, naxxramas, and like fucking everything else but no
i am 100% sure the ONLY REASON THE SUBS GREW DURING THAT TIME, IS BECAUSE TBC WAS ANNOUNCED, NOT BECAUSE OF LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE. INCLUDING WORLD OF WARCRAFT BEING ON ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS TV SERIES EVER, FUCKING "JEOPARDY!"

November 16 2005.
holy
fuck
mate


also i find it funny you cant even do math right.

And like you say, 3million vs 0.5million. Doesn't really make your stand stronger. So L O L for sure. Discuss properly.

TBC went up from 8.5 to 11
wotlk went from 11 to 12.

8.5 to 11 is 2.5 not 3
11 to 12 is 1 not 0.5

And like you say, being unable to do basic fucking math, doesn't really make your stand stronger. So L O L for sure. Discuss properly.

[Shaqthefat]

"I think it was, you dont" no most people dont. as obvious by the overwhelming opinions on iCC

You think its overrated. Most people do not.

And why exactly is that supposed to make me think its great because why?

I don't even think ICC was bad, but I think its not as great as people say it is. I think its memory is carried hard because of Lich King, but I've never once here said the raid is bad. I've said its overrated and has a lot of fights that aren't that good.

Also yeah, I think it was overrated, you don't. That statement is exactly correct.

[Relapses]

Talking about popularity.

TBC Announcement made a huge boost to the player base, it grew more than 30% in one quarter, the quarter TBC was announced, then DOUBLED the next year, then TRIPLE that q3 2005 numbers to WotLK launched.

When someone is trying to put down one's opinion with an opinion, then I can easily come with facts. It is kinda silly to try to even make one's opinion less worth with an opinion, at least when my opinion was shared with many, and lot of people quit in WotLK, hence the low increase in numbers in WotLK.

And like you say, 3million vs 0.5million. Doesn't really make your stand stronger. So L O L for sure. Discuss properly.

Read above.

Ironically, I was looking for old posts I've had on this topic and I came across one where you and I had this discussion already. I think the biggest difference here is that you're conflating periods of growth with popularity and because of the nature of subscription models this is a largely nebulous thing to claim. (ie, you can say TBC was the "most popular" because it had high amounts of subscriber growth then you can also concede that WotLK was the "most successful" because it kept a high number of subscribers for the length of of the expansion -- but you're essentially saying the same thing two ways.)

[Dastreus]

Cool setting, characters... locations. Coherent story-telling. Everything still made sense with enough mystery to be cool. Also Dungeon Finder introduction made dungeoning so much better.