And people called me a "crazy doomsayer".

[TheAld]

I'm incredulous. Anduin does not belong in this story. Out of all characters, he's the closest to being the M word. He's omniscient, he can read anyone like an open book, he'll psychoanalyse you with the precision the likes of which has never been seen before. The universe itself will bend over backwards to accommodate his way of thinking and prove him right. He's Golden Jesus.

1) We're led to believe Sylvanas has appeared before him many times while imprisoned and offered him a choice, he's been able to do a lot of thinking about it. Remember time flows differently in the Maw / Torghast. He puts 2+2 together during this one and we can see that. It's really not such a huge leap that it is unbelievable.

2) Anduin is intelligent. I know a lot of people will argue otherwise, but there's a reason he is a priest and not a warrior like his father. He has been built up from MoP onward to be someone who gets by on diplomacy and intellect. Don't be so surprised when that's shown to us from time to time.

[Scrysis]

I'm convinced Anduin could stand there and breathe for 60 seconds straight with no dialog and an MMO-C post would show up explaining why he's completely ruining the story.

100% accurate.

I mean, just look at the cinematic. Anduin is a friggin priest that has been kidnapped to an alien realm, and now he's alone, unarmed, and warded by arcane symbols while being held prisoner in the enemy's stronghold. The only thing he has are words. And he saw the champion come and break him out and open a way out of the Maw, so he knows that there is still hope left. His personality is that of a peacemaker, and he's not one to do sarcastic banter, so yeah, he's going to try and appeal to Sylvanas in the hopes that there is something left of the woman that existed before there was the banshee queen.

- - - Updated - - -

1) We're led to believe Sylvanas has appeared before him many times while imprisoned and offered him a choice, he's been able to do a lot of thinking about it. Remember time flows differently in the Maw / Torghast. He puts 2+2 together during this one and we can see that. It's really not such a huge leap that it is unbelievable.

2) Anduin is intelligent. I know a lot of people will argue otherwise, but there's a reason he is a priest and not a warrior like his father. He has been built up from MoP onward to be someone who gets by on diplomacy and intellect. Don't be so surprised when that's shown to us from time to time.

Yup. Sometimes the WoW story jumps the shark, but I have to hand it to the devs for keeping Anduin's character consistent, despite warmongers shouting for blood.

[Cherry123]

now we are waiting for CGI cinematic about Sadvanas

[MikeBogina]

And again - she was conspiring with the Jailer and she KNEW that souls were going to the Maw and still killed those people. Those who also killed during this time couldnt have known that souls were going to the Maw and do not share the same blame. Some blame, but not the same.

And again... not the same.

She in fact, committed a crime NEVER before possible, she managed to screw countless people from their afterlives and fed them to the Maw. Before that only Arthas got that treatment.

Also thinking of it, there is someone who actually did what you implied and that's Denathrius. He was overworking many souls and once they were near anima drained, was throwing them into the maw, without giving them the proper due process.

Also Also, whatever caused the Arbiter to malfunction is also to blame for this never before done crime aswell(it wasn't Sylvanas btw)

[Soulwind]

Prepatch BfA
Delaryn Summermoon: Sylvannas u are not like that! Why?!
Sylvannas: BURN!!!!!!!!!

SL
Anduin: Sylvanas, u are not like that! Why?!
Sylvannas: take me little lion, take me now!

Come on, Blizzard do it. Finish NE by killing Tyrande or sth.

You know how some girls have daddy isues? Sylvanas has blonde human prince issues.

[Demsi]

bro they made Frostmourne 2

[gcsmith]

I'm going to laugh so hard when Anduin ends up being the next Arthas and all those years of "But the prophecy!" turn out to be for nothing.

I love how people hold so firm to a prophecy given in an expansion where the last big patch of the expansion literally says "Prophecies are just the cosmic forces trying to manipulate you..." And from a guy who has had countless wrong prophercies according to his own admission.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm afraid they will pull another Grom on us, forgive her with little cause...because Blizzard writing has gotten that bad...and if they reuse that then Anduin will be or attempt to be made the Lich King 2.0...another Holy man driven to Undeath to rule it in the name of another.

- - - Updated - - -



Felt almost as if he felt bad for her, and if he feels bad for her...he can forgive her

What I love is, every interaction with Sylvannas recently blows up the whole "she's playing 4d chess." Instead she's constantly failing, but is able to get away because of off screen power ups.

[Tommi]

bro they made Frostmourne 2

Shalamourne. We shall name it Shalamourne.

[Accendor]

She crossed all thresholds when she sided with the Jailer and "started" Shadowlands plot. Her hesitation about jabbing Shala(mourne) into Andy's virgin flesh is nothing but an empty gesture. She stands upon a Mt. Everest of corpses held by a legion of tortured slaves, her decision regardless Andy makes NO difference.

So much this

[Mic_128]

Shalamourne. We shall name it Shalamourne.

Do we know whose soul was used in it's creation?

[T-34]

Pretty much this. But add Sylvanas to it. Hell..any Lore figure.

BTW, I asked that in another thread (yep....to further cement what you said, there are more threads pissing on this cinematic) - when does the cinematic play? Is it after Sire Denathrius? Or a datamined cinematic?

Datamined cinematic. Not in the live game.

[VladlTutushkin]

And again... not the same.

Also thinking of it, there is someone who actually did what you implied and that's Denathrius. He was overworking many souls and once they were near anima drained, was throwing them into the maw, without giving them the proper due process.

Also Also, whatever caused the Arbiter to malfunction is also to blame for this never before done crime aswell(it wasn't Sylvanas btw)

Sylvanas is responsible for sending those souls to the Maw while Densthris is responsible for his machinations with the Jailer and “red soul” is responsible for Arbiter’s comatose state. All of them are guilty and yet Sylvanas was the first one to knowingly support that kind of madness amongst mortals.

[Soulwind]

Do we know whose soul was used in it's creation?

Do we know if they somehow morphed Shalamayne into that? Or did they just happen to craft a weapon that looks like it?

Either way, there's an obvious answer to your question which I hope isn't the correct one.

Cheers. Would fit after the defeat of the final raidboss though, that is why I asked.

I understand what the people say who are hating it - I just have no clue what they really expect? First it is all "She will be Garrosh 2.0...it is all shit" - now it is "Oh..a Snape arc...it is shit"

What do ppl expect? What stories do they actually like? When did they actually ever like WoW - since it really never was grand and epic storytelling like you get in books or well done movies? I mean..sure...the obvious answer is "during WC3 and Frozen Throne" - but I can apply my snarkiness to that as well...how we have seen the cheese of the Prince son murdering the King Father because reasons has been done to death.

We just were not judgemental assholes in 1999 or so like we are now, I guess.

Snape wasn't evil for 99% of the story and had a sudden change of heart at the last minute.

They said she would have justification and wouldn't go full Garrosh. She went full Garrosh for no given reason. Now they're trying to show that she was mistaken/misled/manipulated, and might try to go for a redemption arc.

Both stories undermine her intelligence and free will, which originally defined her character (at least on paper, she never did anything particularly smart), and both stories have been written fairly incompetently. It's not just the content of the story, which one could judge on its own and say "seems fairly standard", it's how it's announced, introduced, paced and mixed with the rest of the story that shows that they're improvising and making hard turns every couple of patches, which will make any story inconsistent and bad.

[Jackstraw]

Sigh.

This is it. This is what we're called to bear.

After all, what are we but slaves to this torment of writing?

Sylvanas before and during BfA:
Not a hint of remorse or hesitation with regards to her victims.

Sylvanas during these cinematics:
"But I really don't wanna take away the choice from the golden boy! I'm not all that bad! I have a health sense of empathy!"

They're like two different characters and you don't get to abruptly turn the wheel from one expansion to another.

Yeah, basically. Ruthless Sylvanas up until 2018, I guess? And from there on, whatever this is. A character who made some whoopsies and has second thoughts after allying with Anti-Life, the beast of Judgement.

As it stands, this other character that's being presented to us has no purpose and is not Sylvanas. Already wasn't after the retcons.

1. they are not white washing her, they are making her an actual real life villian, someone who sometimes has regrets, and is not just ultimate evil to be ultimate evil, she is evil to do something.

Lad.
She was evil with a purpose. This purpose, before the despicable retcon that made her into the proxy of this nonexistant big bad death evil, was the survival of the Forsaken and their preservation - and hers - at any cost. The whole ethos of the race changed from strict vengeance with the creation of an unrelenting, ruthless military force and armed with things that would hurt both the living and the dead, to survival and finding a place to live while coping with the fact that their existance became meaningless and they did the unthinkable, although that's way less of a problem.

This is the problem of retcons: those hurt all the characters involved. And this is not considering Sylvanas being at least a divisive character.

. It took one meeting with Anduin to convince some of Sylvanas's most stern supporters in the Desolate Council to return to Stormwind with their families. All the breaking of their wills, the sapping of their hope over years, overpowered.

How so very wholesome.

The bleak, grim view of the Council, again nonexistant before this whole charade, sprouted by the mistreatment of the Alliance towards the Forsaken. And I can understand seeing them as monsters after the equivalent of the apocalypse washed over the Eastern Kingdoms. What I cannot accept is that all it takes is Anduin going "but there's hope!".

And I think I'll stop here because I did not think there would be this much passion left in me towards a story I detached from years ago. But I'm this close to start about all that's wrong about Calia Menethil and I have groceries to do.

Damn adult life.
Am I a slave to that torment as well?

[Devvra]

So, well.
As for the literature and culture, the same motiff was played all along. Remember that Sylvanas is undead herself - and being actually dead makes you suffer internally all the time. Look at it as for pattern that was put on yourself. This pattern doesn't belong, it itches, scratches, makes you angry, it's twisting your emotions all the time. It's constantly tormenting you with phantasmal mirrors, emotions, past itself. It burns like hell.
In Sylvanas' case, well, she was holding this for too long and her deeds are abominable, her deeds are monstrous, yet - despite Garrosh - she wasn't herself, there's no "herself" anymore - it died with Ranger-General. She is a monster and she knows it. Glimpses of her past are haunting her, because she's trying to love someone... even if it's her sisters or just Nathanos "Fuck-You-"Champion"" Blightcaller.
At Teldrassil, past filled her with rage.
Here... it's more like sadness of her past, because proto-Sylvanas, classic WoW Sylvanas was more sad than angry. She has everything she could possibly dream of in her state, yet she hesitates, because this sadness went through her undead skin, not twisted.
You guys said Darth Vader, Severus Snape, I will rather say it's Sandor Clegane from A Song of Ice and Fire. Everybody loves Hound, even he's so twisted that we cannot love him fully (he killed many innocent people, but yet, we pitied him).

[Jackstraw]

bro they made Frostmourne 2

Shalamourne, wielded by the Scourgest Rangedeath General Sylvanas Windrunner, gets pointed at the chest of the one who foiled her plans to conquer the entirety of Azeroth and forced her hand one time too many.

Will she bind his soul to be an immortal, tormented Mawshee? Will the cycle be complete? Oh, the drama.

Sylvanas Windrunner would have stabbed the dog then and there, both as a living breathing elf and especially so as the Banshee Queen. This forced parallel, albeit nice, is wasted on a literal no build up.

[Verdugo]

Just imagine it. Last patch cycle. We prepare to invade whatever final raid it will be in the Maw and we find... Stormwind. Anduin convinced jailer to see things his way and now every mawsworn turned into human and honored Anduin by turning entire Shadowlands into Elwyn Forest.

[Nerovar]

Man...Anduins exposition didn't feel natural at all. But ofc he knows everything why someone else does something... ugh.

Anduin read all the new novels.

[bagina]

Both stories undermine her intelligence and free will, which originally defined her character (at least on paper, she never did anything particularly smart), and both stories have been written fairly incompetently. It's not just the content of the story, which one could judge on its own and say "seems fairly standard", it's how it's announced, introduced, paced and mixed with the rest of the story that shows that they're improvising and making hard turns every couple of patches, which will make any story inconsistent and bad.

This. Excellently said. This is what pains me the most about this whole thing.

[VladlTutushkin]

So, well.
As for the literature and culture, the same motiff was played all along. Remember that Sylvanas is undead herself - and being actually dead makes you suffer internally all the time. Look at it as for pattern that was put on yourself. This pattern doesn't belong, it itches, scratches, makes you angry, it's twisting your emotions all the time. It's constantly tormenting you with phantasmal mirrors, emotions, past itself. It burns like hell.
In Sylvanas' case, well, she was holding this for too long and her deeds are abominable, her deeds are monstrous, yet - despite Garrosh - she wasn't herself, there's no "herself" anymore - it died with Ranger-General. She is a monster and she knows it. Glimpses of her past are haunting her, because she's trying to love someone... even if it's her sisters or just Nathanos "Fuck-You-"Champion"" Blightcaller.
At Teldrassil, past filled her with rage.
Here... it's more like sadness of her past, because proto-Sylvanas, classic WoW Sylvanas was more sad than angry. She has everything she could possibly dream of in her state, yet she hesitates, because this sadness went through her undead skin, not twisted.
You guys said Darth Vader, Severus Snape, I will rather say it's Sandor Clegane from A Song of Ice and Fire. Everybody loves Hound, even he's so twisted that we cannot love him fully (he killed many innocent people, but yet, we pitied him).

And even Hound died in the end. Plus we do know that being undead does not stop you from being a good person, take a look at Faol for example. Being put in "wrong" state is an excuse... To a certain point and she passed that point so long ago that it makes no difference now.