And people called me a "crazy doomsayer".

[bowlink]

I feel as though its intentional. She is wondering if this is truly the right way to go about things--she doesn't want to become what the Lich King was. She is slowly realizing that she is also just a weapon for the Jailer, who also orchastrated the LK from Arthas.

Silverpine, and darkshore/teldrassil beg to differ.

also someone, remind me when i run into Vincent Godfrey in shadowlands that i should buy him a drink

[bagina]

Anduin... I am your mother.

NOOOOOOOO!!!

The only thing that isn't there is the family bloodlines. Its more based on Sylvanas' morals and how she lived life. If you compare Anakin's life to Vader (who I know is the same person) compare it to Sylvanas... its a bit similar, barring some certain details.

Now's the perfect time to reveal that Arthas is Anduin's biological father. Do it, Blizzard.

[Narkra]

Silverpine, and darkshore/teldrassil beg to differ.

also someone, remind me when i run into Vincent Godfrey in shadowlands that i should buy him a drink

I wasn't referencing that; moreso the recent events. Back in Silverpine/darkshore also play to what she needed to do as well. Darth Vader did atrocities, as did Sylvanas.

[vian]

I have no idea who you are or what you're on about.

[Accendor]

I mean no; it’s never to late, everyone has a reason why they do things. Why did she go all super evil? It’s part of a story’s job to explore that even with the villains. If they turn around and she becomes good again ok that’s dumb but the way they are exploring her psyche and how she tries to hide her vulnerability is actually well executed so far; something Blizzard has always messed up in my opinion and it always seemed ham fisted

Of course it can be too late. She is simply a maniac for years no, giving her a motivation when her ark should have ended one expansion ago is just "too late".

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean no; it’s never to late, everyone has a reason why they do things. Why did she go all super evil? It’s part of a story’s job to explore that even with the villains. If they turn around and she becomes good again ok that’s dumb but the way they are exploring her psyche and how she tries to hide her vulnerability is actually well executed so far; something Blizzard has always messed up in my opinion and it always seemed ham fisted

"Too late" means "too late for her to be forgiven" no matter what kind of a goal or excuse she might have.

[MikeBogina]

Sylvanas is responsible for sending those souls to the Maw

Wrong, she's responsible for sending them to the afterlife.

while Densthris is responsible for his machinations with the Jailer

yeah, throwing souls into the maw that didn't deserve it(a crime never committed before!!!)

yet Sylvanas was the first one to knowingly support that kind of madness amongst mortals.

She's still not the first one to commit this crime, as she's not directly sending them to the maw, but just killing people while the Arbiter is inactive. The literal Kyrian themselves are still bringing the souls from the veil, to Oribos, where they then go into the maw and Kleia on her first trip doing this even notes that they're going to the maw and yet they still do it.

I'm not trying to say Sylvanas is innocent of a crime here, but she's not the one bringing them to the maw, or the reason they are going to the maw. That's the red soul that broke the Arbiter and the stupid Kyrian who continue to drop the souls into the swirl that they know is going straight to the maw.

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Now's the perfect time to reveal that Arthas is Anduin's biological father. Do it, Blizzard.

As someone who's been saying this for years, i no longer want it. They're literally taking everything from Arthas and giving it to Anduin, now he has his own Frostmourne.

Just kill Anduin already and give us Arthas T^T

[Doronjo]

I'll keep my theory that Sylvanas is on our side but with a complete different sense of priority. She is justifying her actions by what she judge necessary to achieve her goals, she's an extremist.

Before disserting on her, let's talk from a design perspective. In a game like wow, some character gets the development earlier than other or are let in "stasis" until further interest in the character. So even if there were development in LK and Cata, her arc started with Legion.

To understand her motivation is quite simple. The infinity of death beats the short time spent alive. If the afterlife is wrong then no matter how many have to die. After all, no matter if you die in a burning tree or if you live a long life you end up in the maw. And before talking about her relation with the Jailer and how I believe she works since day 1 on how to screw him over let's talk why she try to convince us that the "arbiter system" is wrong.

You are judged based on your life, however if we can make choices, most our them are limited and some option are removed from you. If Sylvanas would had died without resurection defending her people, she would had a sweet afterlife maybe, but if you take her a few years latter the judgement is different. The individuals are judged at the moment of their death which in this world represent a tiny fragment of your existence. The system does not take into account the kind of person you could become and doesn't really give much agenda to you in the afterlife to change and be free (The 4 covenants have this glowing flaw). The arbiter use some unknown parameter to force a soul to live some existence that could not be right for people that are changing. The system should not judge you on who you where the moment you died but who you could be, or could have been.
Current system is cool for people having luck but is most likely to defavor those who had cruel hardship.

But let's get back to the plot.
Wotlk : Sylvanas is revengeful, commits suicide when she see no other option for her once the vengeance is acomplished. Jailer is somehow hijacking her.She is not stupid and must have figured that the jailer is the puppet master of her demise. If she should be pissed at someone it's him over Arthas who was like her a puppet. So no way she agree with the jailer, especially if she claim to fight for choice when the jailer, no matter his endgame is absolutly not for it.

Jump to Legion. Sylvanas shadowland's story is already in motion. She showed honest respect to Varian and is quite surprise at her nomination. Though it was through the Jailer and we could assume she was playing comedy, let's assume that it was an honest reaction. The Arbiter is broken by some design and nothing point to Sylvanas being responsible.

Jump to BFA. As Saurfang said, everything she did failed. She knows everyone is going to the maw, so she gives no fuck to who die as long as it allows her to continue her plans which is : failing. As a loyalist, you could be disapointed that she knew every action we were doing against her and she asked us to do nothing. So she let Baine try to make amends with the Alliance, knew it, and only decided to emprison him. So both Alliance and Horde could rescue him, and once again she knew it and let it happen. And when the Horde and the Alliance are at orgrimar and a victory uncertain, she's dueling Saurfang and "slip" in a way even her devotees learn they are being used.
Basically, she united everyone against her on purpose.

Jump to SL. She open the door to the shadowlands. If she had not, we would have lose. The maw would continue to get the souls and nobody could counter that. So her action was once again useful for us and not useful for "Sylvanas pure evil" as she is not pure evil.

Jump to both conversation with jailers and Anduin. She is honest with Anduin, saying she is fighting for choice and explain her perspective. Second cinematic showed that Jailer is all about control and Sylvanas, as duplicit as she is, is not a hypocrite. I don't believe she has been talking about liberty and choice and follow blindly the Jailer that is the complete opposite.
She wants both afterlife justice and an end to the Jailer's domination. She believes that if she played along, the Jailer could destroy the SL as we know it, and then with help destroy him. That's why she brought us, that's partialy why she is doing her best to not enslave Anduin. However not enslaving Anduin would mean treason and the Jailer would destroy her. That's why she said she hasn't "gone this far to falter now". She did despicable things to be able to achieve her plans, yet enslaving Anduin is a bit too much for her.

Of course she burned Teldrassil and many other atrocities...however I think it took a toll on her, even if for her the end justify the means. Enslaving Anduin is not a worse thing but it is more personnal for her. She is forced into a corner having to do to Anduin the exact thing that destoyed her in the first place. Living Windrunner had flaws but she protected and loved until the lich king removed that from her. She obviously doesn't want to that to Anduin, even if that contradict her plans, that why for the last two cinematic we see her falter...doing horrible things to save the world is a necessary evil for her, but doing what traumatized her and make her hate herself to the point of suicide is something she doesn't want to do to Anduin who represent for her, what is good about life even if she tries but failed to deny that her mortal self still exist.
For all of her action, she could believe she is doomed, yet Anduin show that she had no choice into being the banshee queen but she could still be Windrunner. If Anduin surrender, it would be a confirmation to the depressive "truth" Sylvanas clings to, that hope is a lie. I think that deep down she is still Windrunner, no matter the title of banshee queen and what it implies and she hates that. The cutscene with Uther and Arthas also showed through Uther hesitation that Arthas as evil his action got, was more than just the lich king.



I don't say the writing is awesome, but it is consistent and offer depth of character in a game that has always been a blockbuster kind of story, with sky beam and evil people doing evil things. If I'm right about Sylvanas, she is quite like Illidan, justifying the end and taking the decision for other. However with Illidan, there was no conflict between his motivations, his actions were foolish (opening a portal to Argus without a plan and being saved by a light deus ex machina) and suceeded by apparent luck and pure force of will.
I prefer to see Sylvanas accepting the mantle of a vilain, showing emotions and having moment of doubts in her "perfect" plans she had years to prepare and her own belief.

[bagina]

Just kill Anduin already and give us Arthas T^T

I'll take it.

[Jastall]

I liked this Anduin, but man Sylvanas is even more of a trainwreck now. Girl who knowingly sent countless people to eternal damnation during her wars and then aids and abets blue Satan in doing it to literally everyone is made to hesitate in her pursuits because, well, hurting poor little Anduin would just be mean and stuff, and becoming like the Lich King would be bad even if she sides with a guy who she knows is way, way worse. Sprinkle hints of redemption yet again on top of that and... yeah, this overarching storyline really isn't looking good at all so far. At least the Covenant stories are decent.

[VladlTutushkin]

Wrong, she's responsible for sending them to the afterlife.


yeah, throwing souls into the maw that didn't deserve it(a crime never committed before!!!)


She's still not the first one to commit this crime, as she's not directly sending them to the maw, but just killing people while the Arbiter is inactive. The literal Kyrian themselves are still bringing the souls from the veil, to Oribos, where they then go into the maw and Kleia on her first trip doing this even notes that they're going to the maw and yet they still do it.

I'm not trying to say Sylvanas is innocent of a crime here, but she's not the one bringing them to the maw, or the reason they are going to the maw. That's the red soul that broke the Arbiter and the stupid Kyrian who continue to drop the souls into the swirl that they know is going straight to the maw.

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As someone who's been saying this for years, i no longer want it. They're literally taking everything from Arthas and giving it to Anduin, now he has his own Frostmourne.

Just kill Anduin already and give us Arthas T^T

You are being obtuse on purpose now.
She KNEW that everybody who will die after set time (Red Soul knocking down Arbiter) will be send to the Maw. She made sure to start a Fourth War and burn Teldrassil after that to maximize amount of deaths and hence maximize amount of souls fed to the Maw.
Also, piss off with your passive aggressiveness "(a crime never committed before!!!)" - shows that talking to you aint worth shit. Grand way to end any semblance of dialogue.
Should i use simpler words? Maybe i should speak caveman to you, then you will not make fun of sentences that are too "fancy"?
Also your logic makes slavers innocent of their crimes, mean those who actually capture and sell people. They capture/lure them and deliver them to a ship (for example) , but OTHER people put chains on them, other people sail them overseas, and other make them work in the mines or fields, so those manhunters are blameless!
[Infraction]

[Rozz]

You know what? I kinda wish wowhead wouldn't post these the second they find them, because it fucks up my enjoyment in narrative pacing. I'm already annoyed I have to beat/heal Kael'Thas before I even met him outside the raid. It's a personal gripe admittedly, but I wish Blizz could lock these up better

[Yarathir]

Oh no, a Mournblade similar to that of Arthas' references similar designs...

Almost as if they're of the same fucking material and crafter.

"bro.. what if we make shalamayne.. but frostmourne xd"

Next up: "what if gorehowl.. but frostmourne," "what if warglaives of azzinoth, but frostmourne"

[bagina]

You know what? I kinda wish wowhead wouldn't post these the second they find them, because it fucks up my enjoyment in narrative pacing. I'm already annoyed I have to beat/heal Kael'Thas before I even met him outside the raid. It's a personal gripe admittedly, but I wish Blizz could lock these up better

I'm the opposite. I prefer to be disappointed now than wait weeks/months for the unknown and be let down. I'm thankful for all the spoilers.

[Houle]

"bro.. what if we make shalamayne.. but frostmourne xd"

Next up: "what if gorehowl.. but frostmourne," "what if warglaives of azzinoth, but frostmourne"

dont bother. the usual fanboys will try to defend this fanfiction shit with everything they have.
the fact that blizz is just too lazy to come up with a new iconic design, instead decided to copy frostmourne and explain it away by saying "it was crafted at the same place ofc its gonna look exactly like frostmourne!!11" is lost on them

[Doronjo]

You are being obtuse on purpose now.
She KNEW that everybody who will die after set time (Red Soul knocking down Arbiter) will be send to the Maw. She made sure to start a Fourth War and burn Teldrassil after that to maximize amount of deaths and hence maximize amount of souls fed to the Maw.

First, Azeroth is one world among many other. Maximizing the amount of souls on one planet, on one war means little compared to the universe bringing a constant flow of dead (that we can see every second spent in Oribos). Alternativly, Sylvanas could have just waited people died naturally which would not be a big deal for an undead elf trying to feed a god existing from the dawn of time, not like they are in a hurry to grab some extra souls from one planet in the cosmos.

Secondly, Antagonising us during BFA making sure we are going after her, opening a portal, making sure we can go after her, and not killing bolvar or take the helm of domination with her making sure someone could send us in the afterlife. If she had not done any of this the Jailer would have won, so she is either incompetent in her evilness or made sure we could go to the Shadowlands.

Thirdly, Why the hurry ? Well, the jailer has his eyes on Azeroth's soul, as the planet is still being stabbed by a giant blade, there might be a hurry to prevent the Jailer to take hold on what seems to be at the moment the ultimate prize.

Also, piss off with your passive aggressiveness "(a crime never committed before!!!)" - shows that talking to you aint worth shit. Grand way to end any semblance of dialogue.
Should i use simpler words? Maybe i should speak caveman to you, then you will not make fun of sentences that are too "fancy"?

Do you see the irony in your post ? You are way more aggressive than your interlocutor, and you even add some extra over the top passive aggressiveness by criticizing the level of intellect of that person. Please mind your tone.

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"bro.. what if we make shalamayne.. but frostmourne xd"

Next up: "what if gorehowl.. but frostmourne," "what if warglaives of azzinoth, but frostmourne"

But...
Shalamayne was infused with light, is that any different ? And before that it was the fusion of two existing blade...

Also we have reforged, infused, purified or corrupted a bunch of weapons over the existence of that game.
Ashbringer, Frostmourne, Every single Artifact weapon from Legion.
Even Gorehowl you quote was corrupted.

Why being upset about that particular one now ? Are you upset about all the previous weapons ?

[Yarathir]

dont bother. the usual fanboys will try to defend this fanfiction shit with everything they have.
the fact that blizz is just too lazy to come up with a new iconic design, instead decided to copy frostmourne and explain it away by saying "it was crafted at the same place ofc its gonna look exactly like frostmourne!!11" is lost on them

It's not even sound logic since Frostmourne was meant to be crafted by Not!The Primus, not a random Maw mook. Random Maw weaponry doesn't look like Frostmourne. The sharp edges are reminiscent, but the heavily glowing runes and the magical feel is far more toned down and gritty.

[VladlTutushkin]

First, Azeroth is one world among many other. Maximizing the amount of souls on one planet, on one war means little compared to the universe bringing a constant flow of dead (that we can see every second spent in Oribos). Alternativly, Sylvanas could have just waited people died naturally which would not be a big deal for an undead elf trying to feed a god existing from the dawn of time, not like they are in a hurry to grab some extra souls from one planet in the cosmos.

Secondly, Antagonising us during BFA making sure we are going after her, opening a portal, making sure we can go after her, and not killing bolvar or take the helm of domination with her making sure someone could send us in the afterlife. If she had not done any of this the Jailer would have won, so she is either incompetent in her evilness or made sure we could go to the Shadowlands.

Thirdly, Why the hurry ? Well, the jailer has his eyes on Azeroth's soul, as the planet is still being stabbed by a giant blade, there might be a hurry to prevent the Jailer to take hold on what seems to be at the moment the ultimate prize.



Do you see the irony in your post ? You are way more aggressive than your interlocutor, and you even add some extra over the top passive aggressiveness by criticizing the level of intellect of that person. Please mind your tone.

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But...
Shalamayne was infused with light, is that any different ? And before that it was the fusion of two existing blade...

Also we have reforged, infused, purified or corrupted a bunch of weapons over the existence of that game.
Ashbringer, Frostmourne, Every single Artifact weapon from Legion.
Even Gorehowl you quote was corrupted.

Why being upset about that particular one now ? Are you upset about all the previous weapons ?

Writers themselve seem to ignore other planets and "one Shadowlands for entire Universe" so thats that.
And every attempt of making her "innocent" or "having a great plan" reeks of shit.

[Doronjo]

Writers themselve seem to ignore other planets and "one Shadowlands for entire Universe" so thats that.
And every attempt of making her "innocent" or "having a great plan" reeks of shit.

But they do.
Of course they reference our world a lot, because having familiar faces is a driving factor in our concern.

However most entities not born in the Shadowland that we meet does not come from Azeroth. And they do reference other worlds in quests and campaigns.
So yes the writers don't ignore the other planets, they just don't do complete world building for worlds we are never going to visit. Don't make bad faith arguments.

[TheFirstOnes]

"bro.. what if we make shalamayne.. but frostmourne xd"

Next up: "what if gorehowl.. but frostmourne," "what if warglaives of azzinoth, but frostmourne"

Like I said, you're taking it too literally. It's Shalamayne infused with the Jailer's power.

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And the Jailer loves to reuse shit.

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Now's the perfect time to reveal that Arthas is Anduin's biological father. Do it, Blizzard.

No. Don't do it. Varian and Anduin are fucking perfect as Father and Son.

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dont bother. the usual fanboys will try to defend this fanfiction shit with everything they have.
the fact that blizz is just too lazy to come up with a new iconic design, instead decided to copy frostmourne and explain it away by saying "it was crafted at the same place ofc its gonna look exactly like frostmourne!!11" is lost on them

It's Shalamayne as a Mournblade. What did you expect? How am I a fanboy for defending 1 thing?

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It's not even sound logic since Frostmourne was meant to be crafted by Not!The Primus, not a random Maw mook. Random Maw weaponry doesn't look like Frostmourne. The sharp edges are reminiscent, but the heavily glowing runes and the magical feel is far more toned down and gritty.

Maybe the Jailer made runecarver smiths with similar power to that of the actual Runecarver? I mean...it makes sense.

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Writers themselve seem to ignore other planets and "one Shadowlands for entire Universe" so thats that.
And every attempt of making her "innocent" or "having a great plan" reeks of shit.

I mean, they also said the Twisting Nether (The afterlife of the Demons AKA the realm of Disorder) transcends all realities, and the Shadowlands basically works the same way, but it's for Death and Mortals instead.

So...