Solution for M+ leavers....

[Cheze]

I would definitely like to see some sort of simple ‘karma’ system, even if all it let you see was ‘this player has 3.1 average thumbs up in 10 keys’ or similar.

For one, it would help exclude a few toxic players/griefers. I also think being able to give players a up/down would help take some of the sting out of a bad experience, since a lot of the frustration is just that there’s no recourse.

Such a system could be ‘abused’ I guess, but no more than the status quo is.

[Alroxas]

I'd like to see a deserter debuff similar to what you get for leaving Battlegrounds or LFG dungeons early. Except instead of a 15 minute lockout, you'd be unable to attempt another M+ for the rest of the day. Call it "Coward's Demise" or something to really make them feel bad.

Ok so then the "deserter" just does what the immediate response to the OP- they just do /dance and go off to make a sandwich. The effect is the same, you're down a DPS but since they aren't leaving first, they don't get the "debuff".

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What we need is like Yelp reviews for players.

And how do you handle "fake" Yelp reviews of players? What if a player creates a bot army to make "fake reports"? Heck, you don't even need a bot army, just have a super bad run blame some PuG and then go to your favorite forum/reddit and craft a masterful sob story on how Bill left your group after a non-wipe death...

And then there's the question of the Yelp site's monetization policy. Hey pay the site $$$ and we'll make sure that only the 5 star reviews show up on your profile (and push any negative reviews far down).

[ro9ue]

And how do you handle "fake" Yelp reviews of players? What if a player creates a bot army to make "fake reports"? Heck, you don't even need a bot army, just have a super bad run blame some PuG and then go to your favorite forum/reddit and craft a masterful sob story on how Bill left your group after a non-wipe death...

And then there's the question of the Yelp site's monetization policy. Hey pay the site $$$ and we'll make sure that only the 5 star reviews show up on your profile (and push any negative reviews far down).

I guess you just have to be extra nice to me.

[Alroxas]

How the hell is that even my fault ? typical mmo champ members who just reply for the sake of writing a reply without even fucking understanding the topic itself?

Who created the group and picked the warlock? You did. Therefore, it's your fault for not picking somebody else. As group leader, that is your responsibility to pick well. Tools like r.io can help but ultimately at the end of the day, you picked the warlock. And sometimes (as with all things) you make a bad pick. So move on and maybe don't consider r.io to be the ULTIMATE measuring stick.

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We used to have leaver penalties

O rly? When did M+ have a leaver penalty? The answer is never. It never had a leaver penalty.

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Intended experience is including PUGs. Blizzard designed the dungeon finder tool to find random people. Playing with strangers is as intended as playing with friends. If not, explain to me why they made UI and tools specifically to find strangers.

Nope. In fact, Ion once said over one of those many Q&A that M+ (and specifically M+) was meant for players who knew each other (either through a guild or as friends). This is because players who knew each other could more readily hold each other accountable which you can't in PuGs or systems like LFD/LFR.

This is also the reason that LFD/LFR can have "punishment" systems because the game is putting players together versus M+ using Group Finder means that a human player is making the judgement call on who to bring. Therefore the responsibility of picking well falls upon the group leader.

[tommyhil622]

The issue is that Mythics in general aren't meant to be pugged. So it's just one of those things you open yourself to. There is no good solution other than mitigate when to take that risk. I usually try to do guild runs or with my RL friends. Or people who i've vetted through other means. Once and a while you have people who are not necesarily doing it on purpose but they just don't have the patience to endure the run.

[Jotaux]

This week I tried a +12 necrotic wake 3 times. We never made it past the 3rd pull. Someone would always pull something extra and then someone would leave after wiping.

The only solution I can come up with is to increase the raider.io score for a completed but untimed m+. As it stands if you aren’t going to complete in time the 1 item the group gets is not worth it and it probably won’t increase your score.

[chiddie]

There’s no solution apart from getting rid of the timer.

That won’t happen because it’s the easiest and laziest way Blizzard uses to measure skill somehow.

[Ihavewaffles]

Beware this is a ranting topic:

I used to be a semi hardcore WoW player but now I am a casual with just item lvl 203 main character.

I make sure to do M+10 every week once for at least the weekly.

My current guild is semi hardcore mythic raiding that I used to raid with them for years but now I just do with them some alt runs heroic raiding and normal mode can't raid mythic with them anymore.


Yesterday I decided to do my weekly M+10 key with 3 of my friends and one PUG warlock with item lvl 209 and raider io 900+

We did plaguefall dungeon we reached the first boss then the warlock decided no to dodge the basic simple breath cone of the boss and died. First time he apologized then we wiped, I didn't say anything then it happens three times the same issue. Then he said "fk this" then left.... I mean the key was already ruined since we wiped three times because of him....so why the dick move and leaving like that is just beyond me....


I never ever like to go with pugs really but sometimes I have no choice because my current guild is busy doing 15+ mythic keys and mythic raiding sometimes they do alt run joining my 10 keys but yeah it is not always. Sometimes I have to pug one player or two then this shit happens...


There has to be a solution for players like that who are purposely ruining other players keys...

That he was aware of issue leads me to believe he had problems with his computer probably. Could have been tired too.

Making a thread wanting to punish people, seems a bit, over-kill?...

[Ludek]

Pretty easy but controversial solution.
Just remove the timer requirement to upgrade the key and let people get a new person if someone leaves.
Let the key upgrade mechanic be to just beat the dungeon, and the timer would just affect how much loot / level of the key upgrades after finishing.

There are 2 groups of people which do the keys - ones want it for gear, other ones want the bragging rights for completing +30 in time.
The timer is not needed for the first group goal.
Of course there will be some tryhards, but how many of them will spent literal hours trying to finish +15 in an undergeared / unprepared group for a 20% chance of a random item?

In raids you are technically not punished if you fail - you can bash your head against the wall how many times you want, why the same cannot be used in m+?

[Twdft]

Pretty easy but controversial solution.
Just remove the timer requirement to upgrade the key and let people get a new person if someone leaves.

Yeah that will be exciting. A real thrill every time you pug and get to the end boss, will they kick you or not? To get an undergeared friend in when you did all the work before.

[Sámsa]

Yeah that will be exciting. A real thrill every time you pug and get to the end boss, will they kick you or not? To get an undergeared friend in when you did all the work before.

And how awesome it will be to wait around every pull until all cooldowns are up again <3

[Eli85]

The issue is that Mythics in general aren't meant to be pugged. So it's just one of those things you open yourself to. There is no good solution other than mitigate when to take that risk. I usually try to do guild runs or with my RL friends. Or people who i've vetted through other means. Once and a while you have people who are not necesarily doing it on purpose but they just don't have the patience to endure the run.

I see this sentiment in every thread on M+ leaving, and I really, truly don't get it. Ever since the feature came out, I've pugged 90%+ of all my M+ runs. I always get the achievement for every dungeon +15, most of my gear is M+ gear, and I get more successful runs than I do failures. So I don't get why this system, which is so easily pugged, is not "meant to be pugged." I mean, I kinda understand the extreme keys (20+), as those are much more difficult to pug, but it's really not hard to PUG.

Of course, I don't come to MMO-C to complain every time someone leaves my group. I just find a new group, and that new group generally completes the content.

[tommyhil622]

I see this sentiment in every thread on M+ leaving, and I really, truly don't get it. Ever since the feature came out, I've pugged 90%+ of all my M+ runs. I always get the achievement for every dungeon +15, most of my gear is M+ gear, and I get more successful runs than I do failures. So I don't get why this system, which is so easily pugged, is not "meant to be pugged." I mean, I kinda understand the extreme keys (20+), as those are much more difficult to pug, but it's really not hard to PUG.

Of course, I don't come to MMO-C to complain every time someone leaves my group. I just find a new group, and that new group generally completes the content.

Same here, what i mean about mythics wasn't meant to be pugged is that its the very nature of how keys work. If someone leaves, you can't simply restart without a negative side effect. Not that there's some systemic issue of people constantly leaving. But in that same token there can be people out there who have worse experiences than the average player.

[Eli85]

Same here, what i mean about mythics wasn't meant to be pugged is that its the very nature of how keys work. If someone leaves, you can't simply restart without a negative side effect. Not that there's some systemic issue of people constantly leaving. But in that same token there can be people out there who have worse experiences than the average player.

Honestly, I think players just need to stop taking someone leaving their M+ group as this enormous personal slight. Some of these posts get so dramatic. How dare he / she leave? Punish them!! Meanwhile, one could just find another group and get another shot at loot.

[DeltrusDisc]

/snip

The title of this made me think you had an actual solution. =/

[dawawe]

Remember oQueue when you could rate people you pugged with. Those were the days.

[Alroxas]

I see this sentiment in every thread on M+ leaving, and I really, truly don't get it.

Quite simply, when you run M+ in circles of friends (or guildmates) there exists a social construct that prevents bad behavior. If Dan is being a dick in a M+ run, then you can simply refuse to run more M+ with Dan.

In PuGs, you have ZERO idea if the person you're picking is going to be a dick or a great player (or both). We use tools like r.io to help find "good/experienced" players but again it's no guarantee that the person you pick will be "good" and not just rage quit over the smallest thing.

And the devs, (specifically Ion) discussed that the intended audience of M+ is for friends/guildmates and not for strangers. And further talks about their (the devs) hesitancy to put in punishments for things like people leaving M+ mid-run. As others have pointed out, any punishment system can be readily abused to "take hostage" of the rest of the group. And any group system that preserves the key can lead to degenerate gameplay.

[loras]

Beware this is a ranting topic:

I used to be a semi hardcore WoW player but now I am a casual with just item lvl 203 main character.

I make sure to do M+10 every week once for at least the weekly.

My current guild is semi hardcore mythic raiding that I used to raid with them for years but now I just do with them some alt runs heroic raiding and normal mode can't raid mythic with them anymore.


Yesterday I decided to do my weekly M+10 key with 3 of my friends and one PUG warlock with item lvl 209 and raider io 900+

We did plaguefall dungeon we reached the first boss then the warlock decided no to dodge the basic simple breath cone of the boss and died. First time he apologized then we wiped, I didn't say anything then it happens three times the same issue. Then he said "fk this" then left.... I mean the key was already ruined since we wiped three times because of him....so why the dick move and leaving like that is just beyond me....


I never ever like to go with pugs really but sometimes I have no choice because my current guild is busy doing 15+ mythic keys and mythic raiding sometimes they do alt run joining my 10 keys but yeah it is not always. Sometimes I have to pug one player or two then this shit happens...


There has to be a solution for players like that who are purposely ruining other players keys...

I know that feel, honestly in the past we sometimes just 4 manned it, but that's not always possible.

Frankly stuff like raider.io seems to just exacerbate the problem by causing people to prefer to fail over making an unsuccesful but complete attempt (dunno if that's justified since i've just ignored it as the somanieth "gearscore" fad, but it's a repeating justification).

[tommyhil622]

pugged all my highest keys so far...

I hear ya man. Try to see the context of what i'm saying in general. Anecdotally it doesn't apply to everyone.

[Tradu]

There isn't an easy fix or it probably would have been implemented already.

Any kind of automated system that would punish people for leaving, would also inadvertently punish innocent people as well or cause other repercussions by people refusing to leave to avoid punishment. Just to use your example, say the warlock would get penalised somehow for leaving so instead he decides to just /dance at the entrance instead and go make himself a sandwich. Now the rest of you are hostage because if you leave, you'll get punished for what is essentially not your fault.

Leaver penalties may work in other games, but with the way WoW and m+ are designed, you can't really automate a fix for this that isn't going to punish innocents in addition to the people being malicious, or otherwise be exploited or result in modified (but not improved) behaviour.

I think the best approach involves actual human review and decisions on some level, whether it is reporting those people to blizzard (and hoping they take action against habitual offenders) or screening pugs better and hoping you don't get unlucky.

I'm not going to tell you not to PuG because I know that isn't always a viable option for people as someone who PuGs a lot myself. But I would recommend doing things like investigating m+ focused community groups and discords, and being clear in your group listings ("trying to time but will complete if not") to try to make sure everyone is on the same page to try to limit the likelihood as much as possible.

They don't really work in other games either. One of the biggest complaints in League is how you get punished for dodging a lobby where somebody is clearly griefing. Essentially the same problem of being held hostage in your example.