Is only one of the Covenant Campaigns canon?

[Aucald]

They don't have to be. See, Blizzard writing has always had this about itself.

The "Maw Walker" assists all of the covenants. The weekly Maw quest is you gathering 5 souls, but really, why limit yourself so heavily, especially if you can bring two, three, four, five other people who all take crystals and bring souls as well.

The part you're missing is all the Maw Walker needs to do is be present with a party. The Heroes of Azeroth can exist and go with them, so long as they attune to the Maw Walker's soul to leave, thus allowing for as many souls to be taken out and to as many covenants as required. This also allows for Torghast runs with multiple people to be canon if your group so chose it to be canon in your headcanon.

Thus, all is canon, and only one Maw Walker exists, within the confines of how the story tells us it exists. Instead of ignoring obvious flaws to insist that multiple exist when the story clearly tells us otherwise.

That explanation just shoehorns additional headcanon into the equation where none is actually needed, especially since party or no, a Necrolord Maw Walker cannot and will not experience what a Venthyr Maw Walker would, and vice-versa. Yet all these events still occur, because (as has been stated half a dozen times now) the developers are on record that there are multiple Maw Walkers. There's no need need to bend canon into a pretzel when a developer statement quickly and easily resolves the issue presented. There are no flaws with the notion that there are multiple Maw Walkers and it allows all the Covenant storylines to occur naturally and dovetail seamlessly, just as they do in the in-game experience.

[Aucald]

Except that the ENTIRE story of the game makes no sense with multiple Maw Walkers.

You would need to extrapolate on how and why this is the case in an overarching sense.

Nothing I said was headcanon. Based on the story the game presents us, it all fits within the confines of how the game presents itself.

The Covenant stories are all happening, so there must be souls going to each Covenant. There are heroes going to each Covenant, as the Eternal Ones told us. They can bring souls - They just have not been shown to be able to leave the Maw, only YOU have, and they can leave if they attune to YOU.

It's not headcanon to accept what the game presents us. It IS headcanon to make the jump that those heroes are able to leave when they have never been shown to be capable of it.

An old developer statement that contradicted how they later chose to implement the game suggests maybe you're holding too fast to words which mean little. Which, considering your only other point is a royal use of a plural word... Yeah, checks out.

Either interpretation fits within the confines of how the game presents itself - so that check fails on its face.

The idea that people are always grouped with the Maw Walkers serving the other Covenants would be the headcanon, because it has no representation in the game's lore. WoW is full of solo players who don't group with others, after all - so what of their in-game experience? I don't go into the Maw in a group in most cases, nor am I forced to - so what of my in-game experience? You're implying that the other Covenants are all reliant on a single Maw Walker who's part of an external Covenant, or that their campaign stories are different respective of which Covenant a Maw Walker opts to join, which is why I relegate it to headcanon as this is not in evidence anywhere.

It's also a developer statement of intent, and the fact that you're trying to relegate it to "words which mean little" strikes me as a tacit admission that you know your viewpoint lacks proof, further turtling into a falsified argument due to stubbornness. Age doesn't make a developer's statements any less canon, by the by; that's not how canonicity works - and the fact that this statement is not contradicted by any quest in the game, or any later developer statement, means that you're simply incorrect on this matter.

[Aucald]

The same as it has always been - Irrelevant. Every raid is done by multiple heroes in a group setting. Every dungeon is tackled by more than one person. This is no different now than ever. The story calls for multiple heroes at multiple points in time - But with your hero always being special. No matter how solo you play, certain events in lore REQUIRE multiple heroes. That would be the case in the Covenant scenario - Multiple heroes are needed, as the Maw Walker can only soulbind with one Covenant, and thus can't be soulbound to them all. You can play entirely solo, and the story requires that other heroes of Azeroth are soulbound to those Covenants, and gathering Anima in the Shadowlands in order to help their specific covenant.

The Maw Walker scenario, doesn't require this, as the story wrote out the need by making the Maw Walker capable of bringing people to and from the Maw. Every time you go into the Maw, presume you are bringing a few heroes, because the story requires it. You don't have to be interacting with them. They probably ran off and gathered their souls separately from you in order to not attract attention or whatever. Then, when you successfully did so, you returned to the Waystone, they attuned to your soul, and you all left, never to interact again - Just like every Dungeon and Raid in game ever.

The same is the case in Shadowlands, as it's always been.

Which would be a valid point if we were talking about raids or dungeons, but we're not. We're talking about overworld questing content, which every players experiences through their own lens as the hero of their story. Mind you, "hero" and "Maw Walker" need not be synonymous here, and based on the developers' intent is not synonymous. Every player is both a hero and a Maw Walker, able to soulbind with the Covenant of their choice, and moving the story along down their chosen progression path.

And think of my viewpoint what you will, I think yours lacks any evidence and completely ignores literal in game proof, but I'm not sitting here telling you that you're turtling in on yourself just because you keep repeating what you haven't proven true instead of proving your point. I never said age made a dev's statement's less true, I said literal canonly developed quest text which contradicts the developers statement, which was released after the developers statement, suggests a change may or may not have been made and we can't prove one way or the other as they haven't commented on it since, thus, it's not clear whether the developer's statement is fact at all. And the fact that you are choosing to nitpick words yet again while misinterpreting my statement yet again instead of prove your statement whatsoever, means that you're simply incorrect on this matter.

Your viewpoint would be fine, if you weren't willfully choosing to ignore the intent of the developers and writers which contradict it. I've offered literal proof of my argument in the form of a developer's statement: which in WoW canon terms is pretty much the highest bar you pass. In point of fact, my viewpoint isn't even mine - it's the viewpoint of the developers as well. The quest you referred to doesn't trump that statement, and on its face also doesn't refute it without additional stretching. There's no nitpicking to be had here - the developer is telling you that you're wrong, and you're trying to say their statement is inapplicable or otherwise unimportant based on headcanon of your own. At this point you'd be better served jumping on Twitter or something and asking the developer directly.

Then point me to ANY other character in lore who can leave the Maw at will. That would prove your point very quickly. Or, point me to any other character in lore who has a Heart of Azeroth - After all, Magni handed them out like candy to anybody willing to defend Azeroth by your standards. (Except, you know, CONVENIENTLY skipping over the entire main cast of characters who are all defenders and champions and heroes of Azeroth, but were apparently too busy with the war that we ultimately ended up participating in anyway... BUT THAT'S IRRELEVANT RIGHT?)

(Spoiler: There is none. Only the PC has been shown with that ability, and only the PC was given a Heart of Azeroth. Convenient, right? Almost like there's no reason to believe multiple people are capable of activating the Waystone, and almost like only one Heart of Azeroth exists...)

Every player character is a Maw Walker and can leave the Maw at will. Every player character also has a Heart of Azeroth and a connection to Azeroth suitable to activating the Waystone. That's the way the in-game lore functions in both BfA and Shadowlands, as made explicit by the developer's statement of intent on this matter. Only one person (you as the PC) acts as the prime mover of events, e.g. rescuing the faction leaders, killing N'Zoth, etc. etc but there were always other actors behind the scenes assisting you in the hero role. That's the capacity the faction leaders refer to you in the various quests - not as the sole and only Maw Walker, but as the Maw Walker with the power and wherewithal to achieve eventual victory. The primary Maw Walker, you might say.

[Feanoro]

Obviously the Night elf convenant because Ally perspective is always canon

Hello new player, welcome to World of Warcraft! I can see you haven't been here very long, and I'm sure you'll have plenty of questions. First, you'll want to choose a faction. The developer supported choice is Horde. You'll find you have a better pool of fellow players, superior racials (and favored treatment unless those racials just blatantly break things), story focus, and more! You can play Alliance of course, but only if you enjoy canonically losing even when you win, being routinely humiliated and mocked by the very people you pay for entertainment, and of course, the burning hatred of Horde players you've never met! Easy choice, right?

Great! Please choose what kind of monster or anorexic elf you'd like, and have fun!

[bagina]

Hello new player, welcome to World of Warcraft! I can see you haven't been here very long, and I'm sure you'll have plenty of questions. First, you'll want to choose a faction. The developer supported choice is Horde. You'll find you have a better pool of fellow players, superior racials (and favored treatment unless those racials just blatantly break things), story focus, and more! You can play Alliance of course, but only if you enjoy canonically losing even when you win, being routinely humiliated and mocked by the very people you pay for entertainment, and of course, the burning hatred of Horde players you've never met! Easy choice, right?

Great! Please choose what kind of monster or anorexic elf you'd like, and have fun!

Hi there bitter veteran! Stop projecting onto your character! You're not actually a night elf, you know that right? I don't care what happens to the Forsaken in the story, it doesn't affect my own character! They can all die out in the story and I'll be none the sadder. I care whether or not the story I'm seeing is the canon one, and unfortunately that's not the case with the Horde. Just check which BfA war campaign is canon, yep that's right, the Alliance one! You get the real story, while we're fed an altered one. That's the only thing that actually matters. What happens in the story is irrelevant. I don't identify with either Horde or Alliance, I identify with and care about specific characters. I don't give a shit what happens to Horde or Alliance as a whole. They're not my country's sports teams.

[Aucald]

You keep repeating this, and have offered absolutely no proof. No, the developers statement isn't enough, as we already established multiple times over.

Do you have proof beyond a royal plural word and an outdated statement? No? Then we're done speaking until you do.

The developer's statement is proof enough, that's where the critical impasse lies. You've arbitrarily decided to ignore the developers whereas I have not. And yes, we were likely done speaking some time ago - you responded to me a couple of posts back not the other way around. Until you confront the fact that your view is contradicted by the developers' statement of intent we can't really move forward. End of story.

[Aucald]

So your answer is no.

If the demand is "present the proof I want and not the one I refuse to accept," then yes, the answer is "no."

[Feanoro]

Hi there bitter veteran! Stop projecting onto your character! You're not actually a night elf, you know that right?

Well since sarcastic humor only results in you calling me delusional, I see I have to put it another way.

I care whether or not the story I'm seeing is the canon one, and unfortunately that's not the case with the Horde. Just check which BfA war campaign is canon, yep that's right, the Alliance one! You get the real story, while we're fed an altered one. That's the only thing that actually matters.

Altered in what way? The entire damn story was once again about the Horde, with the Alliance again playing the role of punching bag, spared from destruction only by the business model. The expensive CGI was all about Saurfang and the Horde, the in game cinematics were about the Horde, the Horde had multiple exclusive in game events, and the Alliance only "won" in that the Horde decided to stop beating on them. The problem is the Horde's endgame is exterminating the Alliance, while the Alliance's endgame is to not be murdered. THAT is why the Alliance "won", because neither side is going to be deleted. Did you notice any demands for concessions or reparations? Did you notice anyone calling for justice is smeared as "vengeance crazed"? Ffs, right after Teldrassil, devs rushed to comfort Horde players that everything would turn out fine, and you seriously want to claim they made Alliance canon?

Our story consisted of Horde is beating the shit out Alliance at every turn, and if Alliance comes close to a victory, its own leaders defeat it. If they fail to do so, circumstances like crashing the entire Alliance navy magically appear to take care of it. Sure, you can easily and correctly say Horde victories were overturned like the Scepter of the Tides, but what was the result? Alliance was calling up farmers and can't stand against the Horde. Our supposed leader rushes to comfort the Horde on the tragic loss of the Butcher of Ashenvale. If Alliance players wanted to have any clue what the hell was going on, they had to play Horde or seek out information on the multiple Horde only parts of the story.

If you're going to try to claim the Lich Queen loyalist quests somehow make Alliance canon, you didn't understand the story direction at all. This was Danuser and pals redoing MoP, this time without SoO. The Honor Horde was always going to win, insomuch as anyone could be said to win this trainwreck. The loyalist quests were put in place to appease the very people that got us MoP 2.0 and will get us MoP 3.0 because the developers are determined to teach them the hamfisted, infantile "war is bad" message. Alliance's laughable story isn't canon, the NuScourge story isn't canon, the Honor Horde story is.

[Engal]

There was the same argument about the Heart of Azeroth, turned out in the end that there were multiple hearts given to several heroes.

They are going the same route for the Maw Walkers. There is not only one, but several , and plenty of Maw Walkers.

[tommyhil622]

I love how we're on page 6 and people are still arguing that there is only one Maw Walker, despite the fact that there has never been only a single player hero in WoW (it's always a group of us) AND Blizzard has come out and said that there are multiple Maw Walkers.

"That doesn't count!" "It's not ingame!" Like, seriously? Use some common fucking sense here.

Honestly this thread ended a long time ago. Unfortunately when headcanon is more important than actual lore it’s hard to shake it. Similar outcome in other threads. It’s like debating flat earth. If you don’t believe/accept the science that confirms the earth is a spheroid you can spend years debating it getting no where. From my end I just move on after the evidence is presented and clearly defined.

[Makorus]

There were multiple Hearts of Azeroth or the last raid wouldn't make any sense.

There are multiple Mawwalkers or the eventual Maw raid wouldn't make any sense.

[Engal]

[Mehrunes]

They don't have to be. See, Blizzard writing has always had this about itself.

The "Maw Walker" assists all of the covenants. The weekly Maw quest is you gathering 5 souls, but really, why limit yourself so heavily, especially if you can bring two, three, four, five other people who all take crystals and bring souls as well.

The part you're missing is all the Maw Walker needs to do is be present with a party. The Heroes of Azeroth can exist and go with them, so long as they attune to the Maw Walker's soul to leave, thus allowing for as many souls to be taken out and to as many covenants as required. This also allows for Torghast runs with multiple people to be canon if your group so chose it to be canon in your headcanon.

Thus, all is canon, and only one Maw Walker exists, within the confines of how the story tells us it exists. Instead of ignoring obvious flaws to insist that multiple exist when the story clearly tells us otherwise.

Except if you actually look at the details, this falls apart. Take the ending of Necrolord and Venthyr campaigns. This is a coordinated strike against Kel'thuzad by the two Covenants. Except they take different routes. The Necrolords take the ground route, while the Venthyr use a mirror to teleport to Kel'thuzad's necropolis and then clear the sky before landing, shortly after which the final confrontation cinematic plays. And in the cinematic Baldemar, who is not seen in the Venthyr play-through at all, magically appears out of nowhere.

Because Baldemar was assisting the Necrolord player on the ground. Which, again, was happening at the same time as the Venthyr aerial clean-up. I haven't checked the Necrolord campaign finale yet, but in the Venthyr one the player is once again referred to as Maw Walker by a Covenant Member (Draven in this case). So who and what was Baldemar assisting in the Necrolord version?

An old developer statement that contradicted how they later chose to implement the game suggests maybe you're holding too fast to words which mean little. Which, considering your only other point is a royal use of a plural word... Yeah, checks out.

You still don't know what royal we is.

The same as it has always been - Irrelevant. Every raid is done by multiple heroes in a group setting. Every dungeon is tackled by more than one person. This is no different now than ever. The story calls for multiple heroes at multiple points in time - But with your hero always being special. No matter how solo you play, certain events in lore REQUIRE multiple heroes. That would be the case in the Covenant scenario - Multiple heroes are needed, as the Maw Walker can only soulbind with one Covenant, and thus can't be soulbound to them all. You can play entirely solo, and the story requires that other heroes of Azeroth are soulbound to those Covenants, and gathering Anima in the Shadowlands in order to help their specific covenant.

The Maw Walker scenario, doesn't require this, as the story wrote out the need by making the Maw Walker capable of bringing people to and from the Maw. Every time you go into the Maw, presume you are bringing a few heroes, because the story requires it. You don't have to be interacting with them. They probably ran off and gathered their souls separately from you in order to not attract attention or whatever. Then, when you successfully did so, you returned to the Waystone, they attuned to your soul, and you all left, never to interact again - Just like every Dungeon and Raid in game ever.

Raids are done by multiple people because the story explicitly says so whenever it addresses this topic. It says absolutely nothing of the sort about a player simply going in and out of the Maw. Your presumption here is utterly baseless.

The same is the case in Shadowlands, as it's always been.

And think of my viewpoint what you will, I think yours lacks any evidence and completely ignores literal in game proof, but I'm not sitting here telling you that you're turtling in on yourself just because you keep repeating what you haven't proven true instead of proving your point. I never said age made a dev's statement's less true, I said literal canonly developed quest text which contradicts the developers statement, which was released after the developers statement, suggests a change may or may not have been made and we can't prove one way or the other as they haven't commented on it since, thus, it's not clear whether the developer's statement is fact at all. And the fact that you are choosing to nitpick words yet again while misinterpreting my statement yet again instead of prove your statement whatsoever, means that you're simply incorrect on this matter.

Oh, yes, the multiple instances of NPCs talking about multiple Maw Walkers (which you repeatedly misconstrue as the majestic plural because you don't even know what majestic plural is or how it works) were super ignored by @Aucald. Meanwhile your whole "there's a difference between a Maw Walker and the Maw Walker, which is the closest thing you have resembling "proof" is not "literal in game proof", because it's not in-game at all. It's a quote of the Wowhead's summary of the questline you were talking about.

Then point me to ANY other character in lore who can leave the Maw at will. That would prove your point very quickly. Or, point me to any other character in lore who has a Heart of Azeroth - After all, Magni handed them out like candy to anybody willing to defend Azeroth by your standards. (Except, you know, CONVENIENTLY skipping over the entire main cast of characters who are all defenders and champions and heroes of Azeroth, but were apparently too busy with the war that we ultimately ended up participating in anyway... BUT THAT'S IRRELEVANT RIGHT?)

(Spoiler: There is none. Only the PC has been shown with that ability, and only the PC was given a Heart of Azeroth. Convenient, right? Almost like there's no reason to believe multiple people are capable of activating the Waystone, and almost like only one Heart of Azeroth exists...)

By this logic you could have asked at Legion's start to point out any other character with an Artifact weapon to support a premise (you're already dead-set on) that there is only one Artifact wielder (while handwaving away the mutual exclusivity of the Class Orders the same way you handwaved away the mutual exclusivity of the Covenants). Just because we don't know the specific names of the characters that are Maw Walkers doesn't mean they don't exist. We know they exist, because multiple NPCs refer to a multitude of Maw Walkers. Just like we know there are multiple participants in a raid. Which you yourself admitted at the very start of this post, by the way. Even though we don't know their lore identities (because I doubt when Thrall is talking about brave heroes in Dragon Soul he specifically refers to folks like Legolasssss and Dkarthasdk) either. Which means your position is so inconsistent you're contradicting yourself.

[Engal]

Final argument :

https://www.wowhead.com/news=320616/...n-beta?webhook

Maw Lore Item in beta detailed the torture of A maw walker captures by the Jailer. So there are several.

Subject Details
Number: 638
Manifestation: Maw Walker
Gender: Female
Species: Kaldorei
Experiment 72 Hypothesis: Maw Walker anima extraction provides more power when soul forging.

Test 1: Physical Pain
Various implements used to inflict physical pain. Subject was highly resistant to all physical methods.

Test 2: Sound
Partial success of anima extraction through constant exposure to gnomish tavern jigs. Problematic implementation. Caused several mawsworn to abandon posts resulting in subject nearly escaping.

Test 3: Forced Visualizations
Similar implementation to the torture chambers of Torghast, subject forced to relive specific moments. Breaking point: 115th run of the burning of Teldrassil.

Results:
Significant anima extraction resulting in equally significant stygia generation. Soul forge fully supplied equal to 10 times normal sources.

Transfer of Maw Walker prisonerS to soul forges ordered per Warden Korrath.

[huth]

Final argument :

https://www.wowhead.com/news=320616/...n-beta?webhook

Maw Lore Item in beta detailed the torture of A maw walker captures by the Jailer. So there are several.

Notably, it no longer says anything since none of the lore items are readable on live.

[Engal]

Notably, it no longer says anything since none of the lore items are readable on live.

but we don't know why, it may just be a bug or an oversight, but in Blizzard's mind, and back in Beta, and with the Interview of Ion , and the multiple clues dispatched in the game, like the screen I posted earlier, its certain that there are several maw walkers in the lore. It's not a question at this point

[huth]

but we don't know why, it may just be a bug or an oversight, but in Blizzard's mind, and back in Beta, and with the Interview of Ion , and the multiple clues dispatched in the game, like the screen I posted earlier, its certain that there are several maw walkers in the lore. It's not a question at this point

No, it's fairly clearly intentional since it affects every single Maw lore questitem, but no other readable item.

And if they intend for there to be multiple Maw Walkers, they need to rewrite the story, because right now that wouldn't make any sense.

[Engal]

No, it's fairly clearly intentional since it affects every single Maw lore questitem, but no other readable item.

And if they intend for there to be multiple Maw Walkers, they need to rewrite the story, because right now that wouldn't make any sense.

Read the rest of the topic please ^^

[huth]

Read the rest of the topic please ^^

And then what? It doesn't change my opinion on the matter. The story is written as if there is only one. Even if Blizzard officially states that there are supposed to be multiple, that would just mean that we apparently have a bunch of freeloaders not doing anything sitting around Oribos. There's no actual evidence of their existence or actions.

[Mehrunes]

And then what? It doesn't change my opinion on the matter. The story is written as if there is only one. Even if Blizzard officially states that there are supposed to be multiple, that would just mean that we apparently have a bunch of freeloaders not doing anything sitting around Oribos. There's no actual evidence of their existence or actions.

Aside from the mutually-exclusive, concurrently-occuring Covenant campaigns where NPCs repeatedly refer to the mortal that aids them as Maw Walker.