WoW Loot Video

[Eclipse2470]

I am trying to find a several year old video that explains why they moved away from a badge system for WoW loot. I recall it being about an hour long and it features an old WoW dev that moved to Diablo and back to WoW. Can anyone help me locate it?

[Kralljin]

TL;DW

-Badges in TBC were bad because they added them to virtually any content and awarded way too powerful rewards from it, hence hardcore players farmed easy content (Karazhan) while other players could do the same to get items way above their actual reach
-Wotlk badges was too complex (according to the guy) and made loot far too deterministic, especially Tier sets as from T9 and onwards, you had to buy them via badges first
-Guy then after working on Diablo 3: Reaper of souls always advocated to the WoW Team "to be generous" with loot and rather deal with the fallout having too much loot than too little

Also, he left Blizzard in 2018

[Eclipse2470]

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

[Voidwielder]

If they found a way for Unranked Conquest gear to be a sort of a stepping stone, middle tier, in-between gear - I don't see why Badge gear couldn't serve the same purpose. Have it be a step for people who are stuck between normal/HC/9-12 key gear. Don't make it easy, have more Badges drop from higher forms of content - it's not like +15/M raiders will sit on that gear but it'll incentivise people to try their best.

[kaminaris]

-Badges in TBC were bad because they added them to virtually any content and awarded way too powerful rewards from it, hence hardcore players farmed easy content (Karazhan) while other players could do the same to get items way above their actual reach
-Wotlk badges was too complex (according to the guy) and made loot far too deterministic, especially Tier sets as from T9 and onwards, you had to buy them via badges first
-Guy then after working on Diablo 3: Reaper of souls always advocated to the WoW Team "to be generous" with loot and rather deal with the fallout having too much loot than too little

Also, he left Blizzard in 2018

That is not accurate TL;DW
He never said that this was a big problem. Problem was that they listened too much of community and started adding badges to literally every content.

Their original idea with wotlk badges were good one, just that it snowballed to hard because of changes. Literally should have thought it more. But it gives you idea that blizz devs has literally zero insight. Absolute zero prediction capability.

[Relapses]

That is not accurate TL;DW
He never said that this was a big problem. Problem was that they listened too much of community and started adding badges to literally every content.

Their original idea with wotlk badges were good one, just that it snowballed to hard because of changes. Literally should have thought it more. But it gives you idea that blizz devs has literally zero insight. Absolute zero prediction capability.

"I liked this idea therefore all other ideas that aren't this idea are bad." Nice logic, broham.

[kaminaris]

"I liked this idea therefore all other ideas that aren't this idea are bad." Nice logic, broham.

Thats cool but you aren't adding anything of value to discussion. Those were his words btw. Watch video first.
Especially at 15:45

[Relapses]

Thats cool but you aren't adding anything of value to discussion. Those were his words btw. Watch video first.
Especially at 15:45

I've watched the video. The video very specifically states that all loot systems have pros and cons and there will never be one universally accepted best loot system. But no, let's pretend what they actually said is that badges are perfect, everybody loved them and the only reason Blizzard ever stopped adding badges to the game was because fuck you and they hate their players. Damn you, Blizzard!!!

[kaminaris]

I've watched the video. The video very specifically states that all loot systems have pros and cons and there will never be one universally accepted best loot system. But no, let's pretend what they actually said is that badges are perfect, everybody loved them and the only reason Blizzard ever stopped adding badges to the game was because fuck you and they hate their players. Damn you, Blizzard!!!

Again, point where I said it was perfect. Dude, shape up.

we've instead replaced sort of the heart
of what it is to kill a boss and the
excitement of link the loot with
something that sort of felt like a paycheck

we've instead replaced the anticipation
of seeing what items dropped and
figuring out who gets them with the
system of killing a boss seeing +5 badges and going: sweet in 372 badges I'll have my set I'll be done

Does it sound familiar? Yes, we are back to having the same issues, only now, instead of deterministic rewards, we got RNG and RNG. And it's not even balanced.

[Relapses]

we got RNG and RNG. And it's not even balanced.

That's a great opinion you have there. It'd be a shame if somebody didn't agree with it, huh?

[Helander]

If they found a way for Unranked Conquest gear to be a sort of a stepping stone, middle tier, in-between gear - I don't see why Badge gear couldn't serve the same purpose. Have it be a step for people who are stuck between normal/HC/9-12 key gear. Don't make it easy, have more Badges drop from higher forms of content - it's not like +15/M raiders will sit on that gear but it'll incentivise people to try their best.

I thought of this the other day. What if they made it so that you got badges for clearing PvE content. You then could only use these badges to upgrade your m+ gear to a set level. At first I thought it could function so that you could only upgrade a peice of gear to match the highest key you have ever cleared. The only issue with that is m+ carries would get worse. Perhaps it could just be tied to renown and only be upgradeable to the gear level you suggested.

[kaminaris]

That's a great opinion you have there. It'd be a shame if somebody didn't agree with it, huh?

This is a fact, you can't target any specific item from a vault. And that makes it RNG.
And besides the original (semi)rng we got from the very beginning of the game (you know, loot tables are bound to bosses/dungeons, so at least you know which boss/dung you gotta farm) there is nothing to offset that.

master/group loot = semi deterministic (item still has to drop, can offset bad luck when in party)
bonus rolls = semi deterministic (item still has to drop, can offset bad luck even in solo play)
badges = fully deterministic
great vault = fully rng (amount of rolls doesn't guarantee anything)

This is also comes pretty clear from what dude in video said.

if GV didn't exist, overall loot system would be much better simply because there wouldn't be so much ilvl disparity (as it was in 8.2 and semi 8.3)

Yes you can like current system but you can't disagree with facts.

So the only options now we have is drop rng (from the begining of game) and vault rng = fact (pve, pvp got a vendor but then again, vendor cap is low)
it is not balanced because of disparity between content types and vault reward.
Heroic drop is 213, vault reward is 220 = 7ilvl
M+ 15 is 210, vault reward is 226 = 16ilvl

not balanced = fact.

[Relapses]

not balanced = fact.

Everything in a MMO doesn't have to be deterministic.

[kaminaris]

Everything in a MMO doesn't have to be deterministic.

Of course not, but we should have something, anything to offset bad luck. Like it was from the beginning of game.
And item level disparity is also a problem.

[D3athsting]

Heroic drop is 213, vault reward is 220 = 7ilvl

Hc raid GV rewards are still 213

[Doffen]

This is a fact, you can't target any specific item from a vault. And that makes it RNG.
And besides the original (semi)rng we got from the very beginning of the game (you know, loot tables are bound to bosses/dungeons, so at least you know which boss/dung you gotta farm) there is nothing to offset that.

master/group loot = semi deterministic (item still has to drop, can offset bad luck when in party)
bonus rolls = semi deterministic (item still has to drop, can offset bad luck even in solo play)
badges = fully deterministic
great vault = fully rng (amount of rolls doesn't guarantee anything)

This is also comes pretty clear from what dude in video said.

if GV didn't exist, overall loot system would be much better simply because there wouldn't be so much ilvl disparity (as it was in 8.2 and semi 8.3)

Yes you can like current system but you can't disagree with facts.

So the only options now we have is drop rng (from the begining of game) and vault rng = fact (pve, pvp got a vendor but then again, vendor cap is low)
it is not balanced because of disparity between content types and vault reward.
Heroic drop is 213, vault reward is 220 = 7ilvl
M+ 15 is 210, vault reward is 226 = 16ilvl

not balanced = fact.

People were tired of loot showering and it made it easier to get to do harder stuff. You are a great example of that. Now in SL you can hardly kill a mythic boss(or one at all) because your skill isn't even close. And since its harder to progress you don't get to buy CE so fast. Which is why you are on this crusade against less loot.

And TGV is 9 times better than the old weekly chest=fact. You could not target item in chest before. And no, SL do not have a AA equal(which only took 25 weeks to get what you targeted) so that is out if the comparison.

Heroic drop is still 213 in TGV. You don't even know how it works. And inb4 Stone Legion/Denathrius ilvl, well then you actually have done that high level and it's comparable to the content you did. So that would be 220=220.

[Kralljin]

That is not accurate TL;DW
Problem was that they listened too much of community and started adding badges to literally every content.

???

because they added them to virtually any content

Like seriously, do you just quote it so you can put your own spin it?

[kaminaris]

???


Like seriously, do you just quote it so you can put your own spin it?

Like seriously, you said something this guy never said and presented it as TL;DW. Which was not accurate, You just put your words in this guys mouth.

1. He never ever said badges were bad:
-Badges in TBC were bad because they added them to virtually any content and awarded way too powerful rewards from it, hence hardcore players farmed easy content (Karazhan) while other players could do the same to get items way above their actual reach

2. He never said badges in wotlk were too complex
-Wotlk badges was too complex (according to the guy) and made loot far too deterministic, especially Tier sets as from T9 and onwards, you had to buy them via badges first
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52929484
Refer to this QUOTE, from YT transcript. That was his main issue with wotlk badges

- - - Updated - - -

Hc raid GV rewards are still 213

Right, and thats even worse.

[Kralljin]

1. He never ever said badges were bad:

Okay. stopping right here, he just opened the topic about badges with the title "the time we broke loot in WoW".
I think from that, it's no huge leap of logic to say that Badges were in his mind "bad".

Not to mention that i outright said "BECAUSE THEY ADDED THEM TO VIRTUALLY ANY CONTENT" which is essentially what you've been saying as well.
Or do you now feel the urge to elaborate the difference between "virtually" and "literally" + "any" and "every"?

-Wotlk badges was too complex (according to the guy) and made loot far too deterministic, especially Tier sets as from T9 and onwards, you had to buy them via badges first

Again, you feel the urge to start an argument over such a trivial matter, when i even specified that it made loot too deterministic, which is the entire summary of your own "transcript".

Heck, he even called the whole thing a "complete trainwreck", so it's again, no huge leap in logic to say he's not a big fan of how they handled badges in Wotlk.

[kaminaris]

Okay. stopping right here, he just opened the topic about badges with the title "the time we broke loot in WoW".
I think from that, it's no huge leap of logic to say that Badges were in his mind "bad".

And this is a lie. You put your own thoughts as his words. There is no discussion here. He never said that and no, you can't think "he thought that".
You don't know what he thinks about it as whole. Especially when he mentioned:

initially this system that was meant as
an introductory for the more average
user into sort of a transition of the
harder levels of content

Not to mention that i outright said "BECAUSE THEY ADDED THEM TO VIRTUALLY ANY CONTENT" which is essentially what you've been saying as well.
Or do you now feel the urge to elaborate the difference between "virtually" and "literally" + "any" and "every"?

That is two completely different things. If you listened closely, initially badges were meant to be: quote above - literal quote.
But the moment they started adding this to any content, whole problem came to be.

Again, you feel the urge to start an argument over such a trivial matter, when i even specified that it made loot too deterministic, which is the entire summary of your own "transcript".

Heck, he even called the whole thing a "complete trainwreck", so it's again, no huge leap in logic to say he's not a big fan of how they handled badges in Wotlk.

[/QUOTE]
According to you. According to me, you just presented your thoughts as his words. Trying to sneak your point of view as some kind of authoritative answer from inside-guy.

So let me explain this once again why your doing is wrong:

If blizz creates a system that is meant for some specific purpose and it does what is intended. Then it's ok system. Even if it's not perfect.
When they start to transform it according to user feedback and it becomes something insane - then it wasn't a problem of original system, its the problem of new iteration.