Are you pleased with Mage in raids right now?

[Eace]

I mean, define horrible. Is it bad? Yes. Is it the worst?

Yes.

Can a good Frost player be better than most other players?

No.

A good Frost player can be better than below average players. However, no matter how great you are at playing Frost, you are not going to be "better than most". Frost is very undertuned at the moment.

Also, keep in mind that this thread is about Frost Mage in Raids. Frost has statistically the worst single target dps. Even the "redeeming quality" of Glacial Fragments does not justify them having a Raid spot over Fire or even Arcane.

2. Players who care about performance play fire rather that frost, meaning Frost's logs are lower on average. A good Frost player (90th percentile) still outperforms 50 or 60 percentile players of other classes.

This is just not true. 90th percentile as Frost does not put you above any other spec even when they're at 50 or 60. Except maybe Destro or Fury, which are not in a good place at the moment either. You can parse 99 as Frost and still be below specs that actually are fine currently.

Bottom line is, Frost is not great but not horrible

Frost is horrible. There is no going around it.

And yes, 3 average specs are better than 1 good, 1 below average, and 1 that is literally the worst.

[LordVargK]

You shouldn't have to parse 90 to beat someone parsing 50 or 60 that's the problem. And it doesn't matter how good you are at the spec if just being frost gets you declined invites from everything. I don't care that frost is last but it shouldn't be 25% worse than 1st.

That I don't really understand. Frost still has super utility. I play mainly WL and am pretty used to getting declined in m+, but Frost has so much going on that makes up for missing damage. Food, slows, lust, AI, freezes... Also how do groups know you will play Frost?

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This is just not true. 90th percentile as Frost does not put you above any other spec even when they're at 50 or 60. Except maybe Destro or Fury, which are not in a good place at the moment either. You can parse 99 as Frost and still be below specs that actually are fine currently.

The 90 percentile Frost is above the 50 percentile of many other classes. Not by much, but it is.

And yes, 3 average specs are better than 1 good, 1 below average, and 1 that is literally the worst.

Well, then we must agree to disagree, since I rather play a class with one strong spec, even one I don't particullary like, than a class that is totally average. Might be a matter of taste.

[Specialka]

Yes.



No.

A good Frost player can be better than below average players. However, no matter how great you are at playing Frost, you are not going to be "better than most". Frost is very undertuned at the moment.

Also, keep in mind that this thread is about Frost Mage in Raids. Frost has statistically the worst single target dps. Even the "redeeming quality" of Glacial Fragments does not justify them having a Raid spot over Fire or even Arcane.



This is just not true. 90th percentile as Frost does not put you above any other spec even when they're at 50 or 60. Except maybe Destro or Fury, which are not in a good place at the moment either. You can parse 99 as Frost and still be below specs that actually are fine currently.



Frost is horrible. There is no going around it.

And yes, 3 average specs are better than 1 good, 1 below average, and 1 that is literally the worst.

This thread is about the Mage Class, not frost only.

And as a side note, It is easy to be a good Frost players, just push the shiny buttons. Though Fire is not better in this regard.

[D3athsting]

This thread is about the Mage Class, not frost only.

And as a side note, It is easy to be a good Frost players, just push the shiny buttons. Though Fire is not better in this regard.

With SL pre-patch i was planning to go frost, but was concerned by how braindead it plays especially without pet and GS, went arcane and switched to fire after first raid

[Specialka]

With SL pre-patch i was planning to go frost, but was concerned by how braindead it plays especially without pet and GS, went arcane and switched to fire after first raid

Granted that Arcane is not for everyone, you have a lot to take into account during a fight and you have to properly manage your cd, your mana, time everything and deal with movement phases. Something frost and fire do not care about.

[Kumorii]

Granted that Arcane is not for everyone, you have a lot to take into account during a fight and you have to properly manage your cd, your mana, time everything and deal with movement phases. Something frost and fire do not care about.

? Fire absolutely have to manage cds and deal with movement phases... What? If you don't you will be last at the dps meters since you don't do much outside of combust.

[Specialka]

? Fire absolutely have to manage cds and deal with movement phases... What? If you don't you will be last at the dps meters since you don't do much outside of combust.

You can move while you are bursting. RoP is actually bigger than it shows. And your burn phase come back every what ? Minute now ? Or 1 minute 15 ?

Fire is actually very mobile, can dps while moving and has quite a simple rotation on top of all that nad also has no ressource to manage and no cd to time or stack (just need to bank FB and PF before combust).

[Cerilis]

Yes. They provide me with water, after all.

[Kumorii]

You can move while you are bursting. RoP is actually bigger than it shows. And your burn phase come back every what ? Minute now ? Or 1 minute 15 ?

Fire is actually very mobile, can dps while moving and has quite a simple rotation on top of all that nad also has no ressource to manage and no cd to time or stack (just need to bank FB and PF before combust).

Yes? Doesn't change the fact you have to manage CD's as well ass dealing with movement phases to maximise it... in fact almost every class and spec needs to do so. It's not exclusive to Arcane mage. Not all movement is possible near your RoP so missmanaging it is a dps loss...

[Specialka]

Yes? Doesn't change the fact you have to manage CD's as well ass dealing with movement phases to maximise it... in fact almost every class and spec needs to do so. It's not exclusive to Arcane mage. Not all movement is possible near your RoP so missmanaging it is a dps loss...

That does not mean that fire is hard to play.

Try to do CN as Arcane, then Fire and tell me which is harder to play in this setting (and honestly, even with no movement involved, Arcane is still harder than fire to play).

[Kumorii]

That does not mean that fire is hard to play.

Try to do CN as Arcane, then Fire and tell me which is harder to play in this setting (and honestly, even with no movement involved, Arcane is still harder than fire to play).

... now you are arguing something differently. You made it sound like arcane had to manage cd's and movement phases as if it was exclusive to them, which is false. I didn't say one was harder or easier than the other.

[Specialka]

... now you are arguing something differently. You made it sound like arcane had to manage cd's and movement phases as if it was exclusive to them, which is false. I didn't say one was harder or easier than the other.

So you were arguing a point that did not exist.

I said that they did not care to do that because it is easy for them to manage those compared to Arcane.

[Kumorii]

So you were arguing a point that did not exist.

I said that they did not care to do that because it is easy for them to manage those compared to Arcane.

Point doesn't exist yet you make a claim again which makes the point valid...Every class and spec need to care about managing cd's or movement otherwise they'd be dead last.

[Specialka]

Point doesn't exist yet you make a claim again which makes the point valid...Every class and spec need to care about managing cd's or movement otherwise they'd be dead last.

And yet most of those specs have it easy compared to Arcane.

[erifwodahs]

RoP is the best spell of mage and fits perfectly the theme of an arcane mage. It won't go anywhere.

It might fit the theme but I have to agree, RoP is the only crap why I hate arcane and why I did not play fire mage in 8.3. It feels very clunky and very unfun to play. Damage it provides is geat but I hate that rune so much. Im ok with AoE things like hunters covenant ability where tank can fuck you over, but being constrained around a point on the ground myself feels so much worse. I hate it. Did I mention how much I hate it?

[Qnubi]

I used to hate RoP a lot and even switched class because of it, but since SL I got used to it and now I absolutely love the burst it provides on trash/bosses. Stacking all kinda buffs like for example priest +20% haste, combustion, some trinket and Bloodlust/heroism is just really fun. It also helps that RoP is automatically cast when using combustion, great QoL change in that regard. I also like that Meteor isn't the go-to talent anymore. I hate that talent as much if not more than I hated RoP, because if it misses it feels really bad. Kindling + Night Fae is great fun as fire.

Once you know the fights RoP is not really a burden anymore, even movement heavy bosses have a window to apply RoP now and then. Clever use of blink can also help.

[Torian kel]

I used to hate RoP a lot and even switched class because of it, but since SL I got used to it and now I absolutely love the burst it provides on trash/bosses. Stacking all kinda buffs like for example priest +20% haste, combustion, some trinket and Bloodlust/heroism is just really fun. It also helps that RoP is automatically cast when using combustion, great QoL change in that regard. I also like that Meteor isn't the go-to talent anymore. I hate that talent as much if not more than I hated RoP, because if it misses it feels really bad. Kindling + Night Fae is great fun as fire.

Once you know the fights RoP is not really a burden anymore, even movement heavy bosses have a window to apply RoP now and then. Clever use of blink can also help.

I just wish we had a better use for ROP outside combustion. Out of combustion we don't do much and aren't really strong, and RoP doesn't help, we just stand there hardcasting fs or fb depending on context. I wish I had my legiondary bracers again to pair it with RoP

[D3athsting]

I just wish we had a better use for ROP outside combustion. Out of combustion we don't do much and aren't really strong, and RoP doesn't help, we just stand there hardcasting fs or fb depending on context. I wish I had my legiondary bracers again to pair it with RoP

Pyroclasm is just too weak compared to kindling

[Nite92]

It's fun to play, but damage is uncompetitive compared to other classes

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/26/ Maybe you are just bad. 2/3 specs are in the top half of specs, how is that uncompetitive?

[Qnubi]

I just wish we had a better use for ROP outside combustion. Out of combustion we don't do much and aren't really strong, and RoP doesn't help, we just stand there hardcasting fs or fb depending on context. I wish I had my legiondary bracers again to pair it with RoP

A part of me wants old fire back where you literally ONLY cared about crit rating. Nowadays fire is a CD based spec, our entire toolkit is based around CDs. pyroblast really hits like a wet noodle because we get it so frequently where in the past Blizz could allow pyro to hit like a truck because we had no sure way to get 100% crit. It was random but fun. In a way the old RNG based fire was closer to feeling like real fire, it was always unpredictable just like fire IRL. xD