The Jailer: A completely ineffective villain

[Season2mask]

And discussions do not consist of people posting their opinions, but making arguments. You're not giving us a whole lot to discuss here.

I'd say he's not at all inefficient - so far everything seems to be going his way. He's inscrutable because we have next to no information on what he is even doing, why, or what his goals are.

Discuss if you agree?

Oh, you just did. That was easy, no?


Give me strength.


Edit: Making an argument is how one describes their opinion. You seem very confused about this.

[rogueMatthias]

They're trying too much to tease his backstory, but they should have just done it up front.

IF it was unjust that he was thrown to the maw, or IF he is infact half of the Arbiter torn apart, then these things would make him far more interesting.

Makes me feel that he really is just a pantomime villain - Wouldn't be the first time peoples fan theoruies have been far better than Blizzards actual story.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I am getting the feeling the Jailer is going to be puppet villain and the real "master" will be who we go after next expansion. Which is kind of how the expansions villains work now. Windrunner was last expansion, she now works for Jailer, she will get flopped/become good again/drink the kool aid and become more bad and then you go after the Jailer. Jailer will get thumped and the sky will darken and over the land we all hear "muwahahahaha fools I wanted him dead so I can escape" type of situation and boom you got the next big bad for the next expansion.

[Hellobolis]

Funny thing about the jailer: i've never actually seen him in jail. but apparently that's actually a major plotpoint. and it's not like quest voice over have mentioned it more than in passing either.

If i hadn't heard about the jailer prior to shadowlands, i honestly would think he was the officially appointed warden of the maw instead of an escaped prisoner.

also all those dark valkyr sure seem to be able to enter and leave the maw as they please, so what exactly is keeping the jailer from leaving?

[Selah]

I tend to agree. The LK was a bigger more threatening presence in Wrath than the Jailer. I think the reason is because they relied too much on Sylvanas and her "mysterious patron" versus tying a bunch of moving parts to his threat level. The one I thought would've been the bigger threat pre-SL was Mueh'zala and that was because he was this long standing shadowy figure throughout WoW's lore - I suspect if they had given the Jailer a different treatment things would've felt different coming into the SL.

[dcc626]

Glad you agree.

(Imagine bothering to write 'Ok' in a thread)

Imagine bothering to post on mmochamp thinking your opinion is worth talking about.

also:

ok.

[Season2mask]

Imagine bothering to post on mmochamp thinking your opinion is worth talking about.

also:

ok.

Why are you so angry?

Edit: Sit back and think about how someones opinion on The Jailer has enraged you so much you literally can't deal with a differing opinion to yours. Of course my opinion is worth talking about. So is yours.

[Garymorilix]

I put it to you that the Jailer is a completely ineffective villain. I really don't care about him because I don't find him threatening at all. He just seems like a generic, pantomime villain that I had never heard of before he was thrust at us. Who is he? Why should I care? Even now, several weeks into Shadowlands, we have no real backstory for him.

He just seems incompetenent because the first time we see him he's just monologuing generic lines while we escape his apparently inescapable Maw. Lorewise and gameplay wise we make a mockery of this mysterious villain walking in and out of his domain at will. What were Blizzard thinking?



ILLIDAN/KJ ->THE LICH KING -> Deathwing -> Garrosh -> Grommash-Archimonde (meh) -> Argus (meh, I guess) -> N'ZOTH

...The Jailer?

The issue with your statement is that you clearly think of the Jailer as a "character".

The Jailer is not a "character" (or at least not yet).
He is presented as a force of nature.

The reason for this is to keep his presence appropriate for his power level.
The Jailer is on par or even stronger than the Titans. Was he portrayed as an emotional figure with strengths/weaknesses he really wouldn't live up to being this "extreme force of death".
Deathwing, Argus and N'zoth are the same "forces of nature".

The more clear cut comparison to this would be Sauron from LotR movies.

You need to realize when it is appropriate to characterize your villains and when they just need to be there as an opposing force to be an obstacle.

Characterizing Thanos was appropriate because he was not innately overwhelmingly powerful by himself but adding the same character to, let's say, Galactus would not work.


Edit: The same goes for the Lich King.

The Lich King himself was just a force of nature. Arthas was a character.
But the Lich King is not the same entity as Arthas.

If you go back to the WotLK zones now and do the stories the Lich King is the same "big evil talk dude" that the Jailer is now.

[Minikin]

I put it to you that the Jailer is a completely ineffective villain. I really don't care about him because I don't find him threatening at all. He just seems like a generic, pantomime villain that I had never heard of before he was thrust at us. Who is he? Why should I care? Even now, several weeks into Shadowlands, we have no real backstory for him.

He just seems incompetenent because the first time we see him he's just monologuing generic lines while we escape his apparently inescapable Maw. Lorewise and gameplay wise we make a mockery of this mysterious villain walking in and out of his domain at will. What were Blizzard thinking?



ILLIDAN/KJ ->THE LICH KING -> Deathwing -> Garrosh -> Grommash-Archimonde (meh) -> Argus (meh, I guess) -> N'ZOTH

...The Jailer?

its a bit premature to call him ineffective OP.

let me paint a picture.
Void: Nzoth: IllyG: Mention that Death (in various different titles) is aiming to make a move and the light is complicit

Shadowlands: Revendreth: Spire of the Unseen Guest: the book there alludes to the mechanizations of death or related individuals along with the Nathreziem, hinting to maybe also that Lothraxion is involved either knowinly or unknowingly. This connects to an agent sitting meters away from a Prime Naaru (until Illidan blew it into smithereens).

Azeroth: Scourge: Arthas: We know he was using the power of the maw. We also know that the jailer made those armaments. We know the nathreziem "stole it" (ties into revendreth thing) and gave it to KJ, who used it on Nerzhul, which lead to Arthas, which lead to Sylvanas, who bashed Bolvar, and now is with the Jailer (redemption arc unknown).


Just to keep our example confined to those 3 points, we know:
One of the prime forces of the cosmos (void) is warning us against this threat and we have just learnt that his (Jailer's) involvement has been from the start. Like we arent talking last expansion when Sylvanas started leveling up and gained her last talent row. He has been involved from way back.

Put it this way. Nzoth is scary cuz you know that way back when, he turned Deathwing, who nearly broke the world. So in a game that we play NOW, Nzoth has been involved since BEFORE Classic. Similarly, the Jailer has been involved through KJ acquiring the Weapons of Domination, since BEFORE Classic. I mean we didnt really meet KJ until BC and didnt fully fight him until Legion, but we knew he was big bad cuz hes the Legion commander. Same with Nzoth. Didnt deal with him until BfA, but we know hes been mucking things up using the Emerald Nightmare, Naga and Twilight Cult.

The Jailer will make his move and we will deal with him. The nature of how effective he is will be revealed then, when he makes his move and how we deal with it. Obviously we are the PC, so its not like the universe will implode and WoW ends (subs make money, money buys food and cars). But its how that fight will play out. Was Arthas ineffective? I dont think so. He actually did kill us and nearly turned us, were it not for Tirion. Lets see what the Jailer does.

[mysticx]

Let's see what actually happens throughout the entire expansion, when we have the entire storyline available, before judging him one way or the other.

The problem is that right now we're supposed to be terribly impressed, which is the idea of an expansion's villain, somebody you really want to hate, to work towards defeating him the whole expansion, and what we get is... A bald dude with a chain-fetish, the overriding feeling is "Who is this guy? why do we care?"

As far as lore-interest goes, i'm pretty sure more people want to know what happens to Sylvanas in the end than the Jailer, we don't know this Jailer-dude from Adam, what has he done to us that makes us go "Oh yeah, the bastard needs to die"?

Mystery is a good thing, in moderation, Blizz overdid it though, Sylvanas' schemes on top of plans with a sprinkling of ploys has become meme-material, and the Jailer? He... dropped Baine off a cliff, and growled menacingly a bit, right before we walked out of the insecapable maw, i guess?

[Mamut]

Imagine bothering to post on mmochamp thinking your opinion is worth talking about.

also:

ok.

But he made quite good point. So far SL is lacking his presence. I hope with future patches he will get more focus because so far he does not look that interesting like I was thinking before release with all this hype about Jailer.

[LanToaster]

I put it to you that the Jailer is a completely ineffective villain.

I dont really agree, he is not so much of a "In your Face" villain like the Burning Legion, but there are Hints about that whatever he´s doing will fuck everything up.

I really don't care about him because I don't find him threatening at all.

I agree, he in person doesnt come as overly threatening. But I dont think we always need Villains who can Thanos Snap everything out of Existance.

He is a threat to the whole existance as we know it. If that is not a threat to you, I dont know what is. Not knowing the Specifics about someone can/should make him more of a threat.

Take Legion for Example, there was no real wonder. We basically knew from the beginning how its going to be. We kick a bit of Legion Ass, do a bit other stuff, and then kick completely kick the Legions asses.

He just seems like a generic, pantomime villain that I had never heard of before he was thrust at us. Who is he? Why should I care? Even now, several weeks into Shadowlands, we have no real backstory for him.

How are they supposed to introduce new Enemies/Characters into the Story, if you have no Interest in new Characters? We are in Act 1 of the Story. If you knew who exactly the Big bad Evil is, what he´s doing and how to stop him. There would be no story telling left.

There is nothing blizzard can do right. If they use Villains like Azshara who they hype up over several Expansions, people complain that they will be "Just killed of in a Raid".
If they dont hype up their Villains long before, you complain that you dont know anything.

He just seems incompetenent because the first time we see him he's just monologuing generic lines while we escape his apparently inescapable Maw. Lorewise and gameplay wise we make a mockery of this mysterious villain walking in and out of his domain at will. What were Blizzard thinking?

Oh no, the Big bad Evil is not Literally god, and cant see beyond his or common Capabilities. You can clearly see he is Suprised that we can use the Relic of the First ones. (You know the People who shaped the Entirety of Shadowlands, and basically made all the Rules. [How dare they make a Backdoor])

Yea, we can go in and out of his domain, what does that prove? Nothing. Right now, with every interaction we have/see from the Jailer, its shown that he basically doesnt care about us. Everything we did up to this point, seemingly doesnt affect his plans.
(Its btw the same with the LichKing, we set up a base right in front of his home, and play games to decide who is allowed to kick his Ass, if that isnt Mockery, I dont know what is)

- - - Updated - - -

"Who is this guy? why do we care?"

The guy is someon who is activly trying to destroy the Existance as we know it. Why wouldn´t you care?

[Wysmark]

It does seem lame how we’re cruising around in the Maw and how we free Thrall, Baine etc. seemingly at Will.

Then again...

1. This is not the Jailer patch. Likely coming patches Will introduce dungeons, raids, content, covenant quests etc. that opens more info about him and what he is up to.

2. Are we sure us running around killing baddies and rescue poster-children isnt part of the plan?

3. There are lots of other unknowns. For example. Why did the Jailer even create the Lich King items?

[emil133]

Did you even listen to the main story? the leveling story is about the jailer want to escape and siphoning anima from the 4 zones (mainly ardenweld) so he can escape.. its quite a big plot point

[huth]

Edit: Making an argument is how one describes their opinion. You seem very confused about this.

No, that is quite a different thing. Making an argument is giving a reasoning for ones opinion, not a description of it. Preferably with some evidence for why you think so.

[Greengrim]

I put it to you that the Jailer is a completely ineffective villain. I really don't care about him because I don't find him threatening at all. He just seems like a generic, pantomime villain that I had never heard of before he was thrust at us. Who is he? Why should I care? Even now, several weeks into Shadowlands, we have no real backstory for him.

He just seems incompetenent because the first time we see him he's just monologuing generic lines while we escape his apparently inescapable Maw. Lorewise and gameplay wise we make a mockery of this mysterious villain walking in and out of his domain at will. What were Blizzard thinking?



ILLIDAN/KJ ->THE LICH KING -> Deathwing -> Garrosh -> Grommash-Archimonde (meh) -> Argus (meh, I guess) -> N'ZOTH

...The Jailer?

How about we wait for a bit more of the story to unfold before we jump into conclusions?

[Razorice]

Most Villains in WoW are ineffective if you think about it enough.

[LedZeppelin]

considering the number of threads that bitch about either the maw, torghast difficulty, or eye of the jailer, Id argue that he might be the most effective villain of all time

[LanToaster]

Literally every major WoW villain has wanted the death of everyone ever, it's not a unique trait unique to the jailer and not something that can make anyone give a damn because everyone like him has failed to a lesser or greater extent and he will too.

Its the answer to the Question why you should care about him.

With villains bound to be fucked up by the protagonists it's all about character, Blizzard nailed that with Denathrius, snarky, arrogant, posh as hell, he was someone you could love to hate.

The difference between the jailer and Denathrius is:
We are in act 1 of the Story where we meet and fuck up Denathrius. And the time you spent with Denathrius is not much longer than with the Jailer. And basically both have the same Disposition to the Heroes. "Dismissive"

They dont really care about us at all.

The only direct conflict we had with the Jailer was while we were trying to get our people back from the maw. And the Result was, we managed to get away due to luck. (Or like people want to call "PlotArmor", or "Deus Ex Machina"). Basically it suprised the Jailer, but ultimately he doesnt care.

The Jailer is just another tall dude with a deep voice and a few plans, pog fucking champ.

Because we didnt/dont interact with him at all.

But its quite funny that the "Only Interesting" villains are the Smug Arrogant assholes. I personally feel a Calm and Collected villain feels much better than the "Generic" Arrogant Assholes we had before. Unless there is more Interaction with the Jailer one cant really make an Informed decision about him.

- - - Updated - - -

The "let's wait" argument would work IMO if the Jailer was -already- interesting

I think it is already Interesting to see what he Actually wants, what is the Price, who is he? WHY is he the Banished one? There are so many Questions floating around.

[Coolascancer]

I agree with you.

Before SL I wasn't super excited about his premise and DBZ like origins but I was willing to give it a shot. His model is absolutely terrible because I find it cartoony and uninspired to the point of silliness. Why is he so giant? His fucking walking in the scenes is so slow and unnatural because if his size. I do not know if blizzard could make him that big and make it look like he's walking more normally but they should've if they could. Long pointy fingernails, his stupid might on a tauren helmet. just bad. And I know nothing of him. Perhaps that is my own fault in that there is info about him somewhere in WoW or ..."canon" lore.

At this point I would've rather had Sylvanas painted as the main bad guy (and maybe she is? both painted and the actual main bad guy).