Capitol Insurrection / rebellion thread

[Monster Hunter]

To play devil's advocate on the issue, this is largely because of the civil response you're arguing for. It allows the fascists to foment dissent and unrest and recruit to their cause, and then the fascists choose when to initiate the violence, when they're ready for it, and can exploit the continued weakness of the State in response.

I'm not saying there needs to be pre-emptive State violence. But cracking down hard on the first iterations of Fascist terrorism is hardly without successful precedent. Because here's the thing; your "9/10 fascist revolts are successful" thing can't possibly include all the times some fascists started getting ideas and then the State arrested them for their first stupid-ass stunt and then the movement died, because it was never really a movement of any significance.

exaclty, because we never hear about it, they get quietly disposed of in what ever manner that nations desides, probly true for alot of radicals really.

we only see it when it devolves to the point where the state as an entity has essentialy collapsed, and its become a stright up fist fight between various factions, like the fall of persia after the sha left and the islamists and communists went at it to fill the power vaccume, the islamists won in the end.

the onyl time communism wins is when it adopts practises that arnt in line with communism, and the end result is dictatorships like under stalin, mao and the jong uns.

[Endus]

Wait, so communism is not a left wing movement ? Because you know, individuality ? Or reality is a bit more complex than your babbling ?

As a side note, if by "communism", you mean entities like Stalin or Mao's ideological systems, classifying them as "left-wing" is not simple. They're somewhat left-wing, ideologically, but members of the Party are still generally way better off, economically, than the proles. It's a new class system, not the lack of a class system. Outside of economics, they're pretty damned right-wing in approach.

Contrast that with Marxist utopian communism, a classless anarchic society with no State at all, and there's basically no resemblance. The Marxist ideal is far-left, no question, but failing to see the vast differences between that and Stalinist communism and the branches that sprang forth from it is . . . basically disinformation.

[Monster Hunter]

That kind of prosecution is the use of violence, dude. Arrests are not peaceful, they are explicitly done with the threat of imminent violence if you do not comply.

thats just spliting hairs on the definition of violance, its relative. getting arrested is a far cry from the horrors of a civil war.

[Specialka]

As a side note, if by "communism", you mean entities like Stalin or Mao's ideological systems, classifying them as "left-wing" is not simple. They're somewhat left-wing, ideologically, but members of the Party are still generally way better off, economically, than the proles. It's a new class system, not the lack of a class system. Outside of economics, they're pretty damned right-wing in approach.

Contrast that with Marxist utopian communism, a classless anarchic society with no State at all, and there's basically no resemblance. The Marxist ideal is far-left, no question, but failing to see the vast differences between that and Stalinist communism and the branches that sprang forth from it is . . . basically disinformation.

Reality is never simple, despite some people may claim.

And I do agree : communism (at least how Marx described it) =/= Stalinism =/= Maoism.

[Crispin]

communism is a left wing movment, but in most of the civil wars like in spain, italy, germany where communsts faced off directly against facist the facists won.

and in the areas where the communists did win, they adopted alot of facist principles in doing so, very strict heirachys, elevention of political power of the military, glorification of violance and military power, and dictatorships under pinned by personality cults, unless you really want to tell me how those glorious military parades of power north korea, china and the USSR used to do are part of communism, that glorifing mao, stalin, lennin like gods was communism, and that having generals and secret police weilding that much power is communism, because ive read marx and hes dosnt mention any of that, strangly hittler and musoline did though.

Just pointing out that fascism was beaten down by violence. It was wars that got rid of douchebags like Hitler and Mussolini, not sound arguments.

[JohnBrown1917]

thats just spliting hairs on the definition of violance, its relative. getting arrested is a far cry from the horrors of a civil war.

Using violence does not always lead to a civil war, rarely even.

[Monster Hunter]

As a side note, if by "communism", you mean entities like Stalin or Mao's ideological systems, classifying them as "left-wing" is not simple. They're somewhat left-wing, ideologically, but members of the Party are still generally way better off, economically, than the proles. It's a new class system, not the lack of a class system. Outside of economics, they're pretty damned right-wing in approach.

Contrast that with Marxist utopian communism, a classless anarchic society with no State at all, and there's basically no resemblance. The Marxist ideal is far-left, no question, but failing to see the vast differences between that and Stalinist communism and the branches that sprang forth from it is . . . basically disinformation.

yea thats my point, the communism that wins revolutions seemingly adopts structures, practises and principles from facism, yes they keep some of the trappings of the left wing and communism, especialy the iconography but that is used to stir a form of nationalism and patriotism. stalin and mao are classic examples.

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Using violence does not always lead to a civil war, rarely even.

tell that to my ancestors, america is unfortunatly independant because of it.

[Kaleredar]

You are mixing a lot of things in your ramblings.

I won't even go about that you think the left prize intelligence while the right does not, etc...

In the United States that’s certainly the case.

Which side denies climate change? Which side refuses to believe medical professionals about a deadly virus?

There’s a reason that the only demographic Trump lead in was non-college educated white men.

[Specialka]

yea thats my point, the communism that wins revolutions seemingly adopts structures, practises and principles from facism, yes they keep some of the trappings of the left wing and communism, especialy the iconography but that is used to stir a form of nationalism and patriotism. stalin and mao are classic examples.

That does not make Stalin and Mao right winger, just not pure communist. And I am talking mainly how they structured their society.

You want to win war, you have to be disciplined. No secret in that.

[Monster Hunter]

Just pointing out that fascism was beaten down by violence. It was wars that got rid of douchebags like Hitler and Mussolini, not sound arguments.

wars persecuted by the British EMPIRE, the french EMPIRE, capitolist america, and stalinist russia (which as me and endus are discussing was complex in the labels you can describe that regime)

[Specialka]

In the United States that’s certainly the case.

Which side denies climate change? Which side refuses to believe medical professionals about a deadly virus?

There’s a reason that the only demographic Trump lead in was non-college educated white men.

Well, the funny thing is that Democrats would be considered right wing in EU, or at least, most of them.

[JohnBrown1917]

yea thats my point, the communism that wins revolutions seemingly adopts structures, practises and principles from facism, yes they keep some of the trappings of the left wing and communism, especialy the iconography but that is used to stir a form of nationalism and patriotism. stalin and mao are classic examples.

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tell that to my ancestors, america is unfortunatly independant because of it.

Do you not understand what I mean by 'rarely' or do we have to go over that before we continue?

[Monster Hunter]

That does not make Stalin and Mao right winger, just not pure communist. And I am talking mainly how they structured their society.

You want to win war, you have to be disciplined. No secret in that.

exactly the point im making, and in doing so the world they made after looked closer to facism than marx's dream.

[Crispin]

wars persecuted by the British EMPIRE, the french EMPIRE, capitolist america, and stalinist russia (which as me and endus are discussing was complex in the labels you can describe that regime)

Are you implying that GB and France was fascist countries during ww2..?

[JohnBrown1917]

wars persecuted by the British EMPIRE, the french EMPIRE, capitolist america, and stalinist russia (which as me and endus are discussing was complex in the labels you can describe that regime)

Mussolini was killed by Italian anarchists, not anybody from those countries.

[Monster Hunter]

Do you not understand what I mean by 'rarely' or do we have to go over that before we continue?

theres more to it than your likely willing to go into, and depnds what you mean by violance. if were talking areests then your right, only on a few occasions like nelson mandela can be made to show how it leads to escelation.

if were talking violance as in how i define it, the killing of protestors and civilians by a side, then from the peasant revolts 1381, corn wars, india uprisings, mao mao rebellion, irish independance..... yea britian has made that mistake alot, the number of civil wars that began when an officer of the state was to hasty on a trigger is a hell of alot.

[Endus]

Using violence does not always lead to a civil war, rarely even.

I'll repeat the example of Canada's October Crisis, back in 1970, when Pierre Trudeau was PM.

A bunch of Quebec separatists kidnapped a British diplomat, and then the Labour Minister of Quebec.
Quebec asked for military support to deal with the uprising.
Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act.
The body of the Minister was found in a car trunk at the airport.
Trudeau rolled fucking tanks into major cities and cracked way the fuck down on everything.
Nearly 500 people were arrested, more than 60 were eventually charged.
Some separatists were allowed to flee to Cuba.

While there were some oversteps in the government response, they caught the murderers, and it pretty much entirely ended the use of violence by Quebec separatists completely, ever since.

[Monster Hunter]

Mussolini was killed by Italian anarchists, not anybody from those countries.

after those countrys had marched half way up italy dismanteling what was left of italys army after its ships were desimated in the med and its army reduced to rubble in africa.

hittler technicaly killed hittler, but we still give the russians credit.

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I'll repeat the example of Canada's October Crisis, back in 1970, when Pierre Trudeau was PM.

A bunch of Quebec separatists kidnapped a British diplomat, and then the Labour Minister of Quebec.
Quebec asked for military support to deal with the uprising.
Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act.
The body of the Minister was found in a car trunk at the airport.
Trudeau rolled fucking tanks into major cities and cracked way the fuck down on everything.
Nearly 500 people were arrested, more than 60 were eventually charged.
Some separatists were allowed to flee to Cuba.

While there were some oversteps in the government response, they caught the murderers, and it pretty much entirely ended the use of violence by Quebec separatists completely, ever since.

then you have the Indian Rebellion of 1857 took a wee bit more effort and bodies.

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Are you implying that GB and France was fascist countries during ww2..?

imperialist.

[Magical Mudcrab]

then you have the Indian Rebellion of 1857 took a wee bit more effort and bodies.

You can't seriously be implying that you believe that suppression of domestic terrorists within the US within the US will be more like an uprising against the British East India Company almost 200 years ago in what was effectively a colonial state than the quelling of domestic terrorism in Canada 50 years ago.

[Monster Hunter]

Germany never had a civil war between communism and fascism, the liberals and conservatives put Hitler in power thinking they could controll him. You think the anarchists and communists would even stand a chance against the German military at the time?

As for Italy, the Anarchists ended up being the ones who got rid of Mussolini which led to Italy joining the allies.

guess you never lernt about The Spartacist vs the Putshists in the early days of the weirmar republic ?