FFXIV the worst game I've tried in a while

[Rogalicus]

So.... you like to be able to sit back and press 4 buttons in a rotation instead of actually having to make choices on what you use when you use it? Seems to me you just want easy stuff.

FFXIV and "actually having to make choices" are actually antithetical.

[KrayZ33]

You are literally the most wrong you can be lol. WoW can have up to 100+ casts per minute while FF never goes above 50 and most jobs sit around 30-38. Casts per minute include the oGCDs you mentioned. Feel free to compare logs of each game and look at casts per minute and you will surely figure out why FF is considered slow.

- - - Updated - - -



Not even true for endgame. Even in endgame raids FF has a way slower CPM than the average WoW class does. The fastest job in FF comes close to the slowest class in WoW while other classes in WoW double or triple the CPM of FF jobs.

wtf, which class has ~90-120CPM outside of Torghast with 200% haste or something.

The slowest DPS class in FFXIV has around 30CPM (BLM - the next slowest is at 36 btw)
The slowest DPS class in WoW has around 32CPM (Destruction in M+ - the next slowest is at 32 too btw)
The slowest DPS class in WoW ST encounters is at 35 (Arcane - the next slowest is at 36 - Desturction)
The fastest DPS class in FFXIV has around 48 (NIN)
The fastest DPS class in WoW has around 62-65 (depending on what content Mythic/Single target etc. - Outlaw)

WoW DPS averages around ~52 or something
FFXIV DPS averages around ~41 or something.

Not really a great point when there are classes in WoW that double the CPM of other classes in the same game already..

The difference is much smaller than people would like to believe.
Or everyone just plays outlaw/brewmaster.

[Chonar]

Yes, that's one of the major issues with the game. Again, it's not even hard to do, you just put all your abilities on your bars and click them one after another. It's just unnecessary bloat.

The real issue is how clucnky and not fluid the combat feels. In the end it doesn't really matter if there's 4 buttons or 20. It's how it feels. And FF's combat just doesn't feel as good as WoW's.

That, and if you've never played any Final Fantasy games before it, the "good story" is mostly a boring generic fantasy story of interchangeable names and sameface bland characters (except a handful of standout ones). It seems to rely heavily on references to past titles to give Final Fantasy fans a sense of recognition and wonder (of course it does, this is a good thing) but if you aint that, then the story quickly falls flat.

[KrayZ33]

That, and if you've never played any Final Fantasy games before it, the "good story" is mostly a boring generic fantasy story of interchangeable names and sameface bland characters (except a handful of standout ones). It seems to rely heavily on references to past titles to give Final Fantasy fans a sense of recognition and wonder (of course it does, this is a good thing) but if you aint that, then the story quickly falls flat.

I disagree.
And I have no idea about the old FF titles. These references you are talking about are mostly for raids, which are "side stories". The rest are not important to the story itself, so they don't really "rely heavily" on it at all, because that makes it sound like you had to play these games to get something out of their respective stories. Can't really say that you need to know Vayne from FFXII to understand Zenos in FFXIV or anything like that.


When people say stuff like that I always wonder what they define as a "good" story.
It's easy to shit on things, I can do that all day too.
Buzzwords like "generic" and "bland" are so pointless without any examples.

For example, an evil empire looming around the border is "generic" - but at the same time, also a tool to create a story that is used by all the great writers you can think of that write stuff in a fantasy setting and are known for their world building.
So are all these stories generic and bland?
It obviously depends on how it's written and portrayed - what kind of backstory they are given, what kind of tools, what kind of powers, what kind of motivation, what kind of politics and motives they follow.
Garlemand is quite interessting in that regard.

They have their own look, their own history, their own music, their own combat style and weapons, their own way to name stuff, etc. etc.
So it's certainly not "bland" either.

And this goes all the way through all the important enemies/characters I can think off - at least post ARR 2.0.
Pretty sure there is a dud here and there but where isn't that the case.

[Rogalicus]

wtf, which class has ~90-120CPM outside of Torghast with 200% haste or something.

The slowest DPS class in FFXIV has around 30CPM (BLM - the next slowest is at 36 btw)
The slowest DPS class in WoW has around 32CPM (Destruction in M+ - the next slowest is at 32 too btw)
The slowest DPS class in WoW ST encounters is at 35 (Arcane - the next slowest is at 36 - Desturction)
The fastest DPS class in FFXIV has around 48 (NIN)
The fastest DPS class in WoW has around 62-65 (depending on what content Mythic/Single target etc. - Outlaw)

WoW DPS averages around ~52 or something
FFXIV DPS averages around ~41 or something.

Not really a great point when there are classes in WoW that double the CPM of other classes in the same game already..

The difference is much smaller than people would like to believe.
Or everyone just plays outlaw/brewmaster.

You are comparing start of expansion in a game where classes scale with haste and other secondary stats (e.g. crit giving more procs) to end of expansion in a game with static rotations.

[KrayZ33]

You are comparing start of expansion in a game where classes scale with haste and other secondary stats (e.g. crit giving more procs) to end of expansion in a game with static rotations.

The average APM for 8.3 release was 53.
Feel free to add another 2-6 APM if you so wish. Doesn't really matter.
I think at the end of it with absolute crazy stats (which apparently won't return in SL if Blizz is to be believed) it's around 60 for DPS classes (September 2020 - 8.3 again).

The real lead WoW has over FFXIV when it comes to APM is with Tank and Healer classes.

[Katchii]

So.... you like to be able to sit back and press 4 buttons in a rotation instead of actually having to make choices on what you use when you use it? Seems to me you just want easy stuff.

To be fair though, there isn't really very much actual "choice" or decision points in FFXIV rotations. The multi-button combos don't have choices, you hit them in the correct order or you don't get the combo benefit. Even for the ones that have branching choices, the "choice" is based on whether you need to re-apply the buff or debuff the combo applies. And once everything is applied, the combo has a pretty rigid flow after that to keep everything up and maximize your DPS. Your oGCD skills are used on cooldown, no real "choice" there.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy FFXIV a little more than WoW in this regard simply because there ARE more buttons to press and therefore it feels more active, but WoW has more actual real decision points in each class rotation due to procs, but with significantly fewer buttons to press. With that said, FFXIV does have too many buttons, it needs to be pruned, just not nearly as pruned as what they did in WoW. Many of my classes have almost 3 full hotbars of abilities with the vast majority of those being used regularly....so, 30-36 abilities? There's no need for that.

[Rogalicus]

The average APM for 8.3 release was 53.
Feel free to add another 2-6 APM if you so wish. Doesn't really matter.
I think at the end of it with absolute crazy stats (which apparently won't return in SL if Blizz is to be believed) it's around 60 for DPS classes (September 2020 - 8.3 again).

The real lead WoW has over FFXIV when it comes to APM is with Tank and Healer classes.

Sorry, I don't know where you get the data.
Simcraft for T25 (8.3 raid) places average APM at 60. Only four spec are slower than fastest class in FFXIV out of 30.
Simcraft for T26 places average APM at 55. Four spec are slower than NIN, three are at the same speed.

The only CPM for FFXIV I've found is this

average is around 39 if we exclude healers. So WoW specs are at least 40% faster than FFXIV even if we compare start of expansion to geared classes. If this isn't significant difference, what is?

[KrayZ33]

Sorry, I don't know where you get the data.
Simcraft for T25 (8.3 raid) places average APM at 60. Only four spec are slower than fastest class in FFXIV out of 30.
Simcraft for T26 places average APM at 55. Four spec are slower than NIN, three are at the same speed.

The only CPM for FFXIV I've found is this

average is around 39 if we exclude healers. So WoW specs are at least 40% faster than FFXIV even if we compare start of expansion to geared classes. If this isn't significant difference, what is?

I used the same data as you, except for Shadowlands, I used Bloodmallet there.
And I only included DPS, as I mentioned already..

FFXIV 408 / 10 = 40,8 = 41 APM

T25 = end of BFA - 60 APM I said so as well
If I use your chart for SL I get 53,5 APM for DPS counting/using every DPSspec's fastest choice.

T23 is start of BFA 8.3 (or fully geared 8.2 if you so wish) afaik and I got ~53 there... which would be the better breakpoint to pick your average APM because it's in the middle of an expansion before super-powers kick for the last 3-6 months. Would have loved to pick T24 but couldn't find it.
https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T23_Raid.html

And It doesn't matter which spec is faster or slower, I'm saying that the difference isn't as large as people think for DPS specs.
And that's what the average APM tells us there
And what's that part about geared characters in FFXIV?
Gear doesn't matter in the slightest for most / nearly all classes in terms of APM in FFXIV.
For example, the difference between a full skillspeed SAM and a no skillspeed SAM is like 2 APM.
And the *no*-skillspeed SAM is the "endgame" build throughout the whole expansion.

For the most part, you are looking at a 20-25% difference on average.

And I don't see a class with 90-120 CPM either, even on the most broken secondary stats raid-tier we've had in this game so far.
I was just toning down the exaggeration, it's not like I said that FFXIV classes are just as fast..


This is the APM of Shadowbringers 5.0 btw, before the first raid came out
https://i.imgur.com/jtau1fQ.png
Taken from actual fight data (with downtime), apparently.
Your/my FFXIV-chart is from actual fight data too, both E5S and E6S have downtime.

[Scathan]

Is the debate at this point, the mmo that hits buttons faster is more difficult?

Having enjoyed both games. I personally think ff jobs are more fun/rewarding in general than wow classes

[Daltin]

I play Outlaw/Subtlety/Prot Paladin/Warlock, and Summoner/Machinist/Samurai/Bard. Hall of Fame kills on WoW and Ultimates on FF. Both games scratch different itches. Both games are fun for very different reasons.

But, anyone arguing about GCD "being a problem/deterrent" to playing the game, simply hasn't played the game. Their opinion is strictly what they 'read', and it's obvious. In no way shape or form during the combat of XIV in an Ultimate am I thinking to myself, "Man, this combat is slow".

[Malix Farwin]

?

All I'm asking is how the SMN rotation gets fucked up after the add phase when there is a cutscene that basically resets *everyones* rotation back to point zero.
The whole purpose of that cutscene is in fact that you can do another opener and to reset cooldown timers and fix rotations.

I'm glad that it sounded like I didn't play SMN, because thats what I was actually saying in my post, so at least you can read I guess?
It's you who said this though



And you are contradicting yourself because they clearly are in a "bad state mechanically", when they can't make use of a 1minute long cutscene to reset their rotation.
Without even counting the additional time you could use because the DPS check of that add-phase is pretty low.

Unless of course you are just saying some bullshit to make it seem like you have a point - I don't know, but pick one.

It's either "fine" or it's not.
What you describe here is absolutely not fine at all.

Not contradicting anything you just are really terrible in determining what is bad and good. You reignite an old conversation which wasnt any of your business and this is the best you have to offer. quite sad actually. Second. Yes the cutscene resets everyone's cooldown but i am talking about the transition into the adds that splits the group in half, not the long Cutscene afterwards and if you do not transition correctly you will struggle killing the adds. Being forced to delay things or speed them up isnt bad mechanics and SMN isnt the only one who has to do it.

Finally what i described is the norms within the game if you have a problem with it you have to take it up with how classes are designed as a whole because this is not a SMN issue and between all jobs this is indeed fine.

So to recap, replies to a comment i made over 2 months ago with BS. Doesnt actually make a point but attacks mines. Tells me i am contradicting myself because he likes to use the word contradicting without actually knowing the mean. Then lastly doesnt even play said job to even make a comment on in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

You are correct.

The issue in most cases is that it's a pretty locked rotation within that 2 minute cycle, and unless you know your team's performance and the encounter timer's and mechanics really well it's unlikely that 2 minute cycle will align with the fight. But even in those situations, you'll need to delay the payoff of the 2-minute cycle (Demi Bahamut and Pheonix) until it makes sense to use them. Meaning in PuG's....good fuckin luck trying to optimize your performance.

Mechanically, the class works just fine, technically. That 2-minute cycle does work, and flows well....in a vacuum. IMO it feels terrible in practice and I feel much more stifled, at the mercy of the rest of the group, and completely at the mercy of the encounter to line up my abilities and cooldowns. Always worrying and mindful about when I can or should be using that big burst payoff at the end of my 2-minute cycle. The absolute worst feeling is thinking you have it lined up, you launch into your Demi-Bahamut phase and 3 seconds in there's a phase transition or something and waste that whole burtst window, or even more frustrating you die due to someone else screwing something up (like a target based AoE from the boss that someone else placed badly), and then have to start the whole thing over again.

This is why I stopped playing SMN after maining it since ARR...it just feels terrible, especially with the removal of their pets being targettable. The class just doesn't feel good to play anymore, for me anyway, but I know I'm not the only one.

Thats the thing though, what you are pointing out are things that other jobs also have to deal with outside of maybe tanks and healers. Some jobs have it even worse, its the way FFXIV designs their jobs so if you ahve a problem with it the discussion should be address to the job designs as a whole, not to SMN specifically because its mechanically sound and compared to everything else technically sound as well.

Edit: i mean just to give you an example RDM to complete their Melee combo takes around 13 seconds. Yes Summoner window is about 20 seconds but RDM loses more from not completing theirs than Summoner does as well as the fact that their melee combo can come at awkward times. This is the same for Ninja burst Windows as well. Bard for example has it really bad too because you have to constantly be rotating through songs and what happens when your best song is up and a transition happens.

This is wha ti mean when i say SMN is fine because within the system of the game its working much like a lot of other jobs. If you want to complain about the system thats fine but complaining about SMN specifically is stupid because if summoner is "broken" then everything is..

[KrayZ33]

Not contradicting anything you just are really terrible in determining what is bad and good. You reignite an old conversation which wasnt any of your business and this is the best you have to offer. quite sad actually. Second. Yes the cutscene resets everyone's cooldown but i am talking about the transition into the adds that splits the group in half, not the long Cutscene afterwards and if you do not transition correctly you will struggle killing the adds. Being forced to delay things or speed them up isnt bad mechanics and SMN isnt the only one who has to do it.

Finally what i described is the norms within the game if you have a problem with it you have to take it up with how classes are designed as a whole because this is not a SMN issue and between all jobs this is indeed fine.

So to recap, replies to a comment i made over 2 months ago with BS. Doesnt actually make a point but attacks mines. Tells me i am contradicting myself because he likes to use the word contradicting without actually knowing the mean. Then lastly doesnt even play said job to even make a comment on in the first place.

stop being so full of shit.

First of all, you said "it ruins your pacing for the enitre fight" not just the add phase. Now you are moving goalposts.

And just because you said something two months ago doesn't change that you said it, what's your problem.

If you don't want others to jump in on your "baby raging" (oh the irony) use the private message function.
Just because you ignore my point doesn't mean I didn't make one.
The point I made is clear.
If you have to delay an ability or two and it messes up your whole fight afterwards, it's a mechanical problem. Just because you don't realize it doesn't mean it isn't true. It just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Mifuyne]

But, anyone arguing about GCD "being a problem/deterrent" to playing the game, simply hasn't played the game. Their opinion is strictly what they 'read', and it's obvious. In no way shape or form during the combat of XIV in an Ultimate am I thinking to myself, "Man, this combat is slow".

There's just many buttons just for the sake of ..well, nothing. It's all just bloat.
Combat still feels slow, because FFXIV netcode is utter crap and it's server>client based - doesn't matter how many buttons you have to smash.

I love FFXIV way more than WoW but the combat (pve/pvp) "feels" crap.
Would still tell people to play FFXIV, even if the combat is a bit icky instead of WoW.

So.... you like to be able to sit back and press 4 buttons in a rotation instead of actually having to make choices on what you use when you use it? Seems to me you just want easy stuff.

There's even less choice in FFXIV combat. Your entire rotation will be fucked over if you "choose" something else and you'll be wiggling alllll the way at the bottom of the dps. Most classes have some reset-rotation kind of ability but all your big CDs will be out of sync so you'll forever be weaksauce until you're able to sync up the skills again.

The choice is mostly at the start of a fight, maybe having to change the overall rotation slightly because there will be a phasechange/addphase/etc.

[Malix Farwin]

stop being so full of shit.

First of all, you said "it ruins your pacing for the enitre fight" not just the add phase. Now you are moving goalposts.

And just because you said something two months ago doesn't change that you said it, what's your problem.

If you don't want others to jump in on your "baby raging" (oh the irony) use the private message function.
Just because you ignore my point doesn't mean I didn't make one.
The point I made is clear.
If you have to delay an ability or two and it messes up your whole fight afterwards, it's a mechanical problem. Just because you don't realize it doesn't mean it isn't true. It just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

A. You are the one BSing

B. Yes its too months old and Yes you are late to the convo and Yes this convo has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

C. I am not baby raging, you are. you are nonsensical and when people spit facts to you, your retort is "you are bullshitting" because rather than actually play th eclass you rather come to the forums and argue about it. The best recommendation i can give you is play summoner and play it in content.

LEts reinterate what i said (2 months old so i had to reread everything and yup didnt take long to see where your BS is coming from).

Me "where as on 14 anything that causes you to stop dps can punish you and it takes a lot of practice to figure out when you should push and hold thing"

This translate to lesrning your job more indept this does not translate into your blanket statement of "hurr durr it ruins your pacing for the enitre fight". It means if you arent doing things correctly it can ruin the whole fight and this applies to ALL JOBS ON 14.

If you cannot understand that again you need to actually do content rather than comment on it because you COMPLETELY misunderstood what i said.

- - - Updated - - -

He literally said "I do not play it" and you proceed to make a theory that he doesn't play it based on everything else around that statement?

More to the point, what he said about Summoner isn't too far off. It sounds to me like he's taken in alot of criticism that actual Summoner mains have complained about. Summoner Rotation is notorious in the XIV community for being garbage, and almost every single one of them wants some form of rework. A good chunk of those people want Summoner divorced from Scholar.

Yoshi-P Even admits that they regret making Summoner (and Scholar) the way that they did, and adamantly refuse to do that again, because of what it's done to both jobs.

The "problem" with summoner is something all jobs have to deal with. adding the "summoner mains" in response to someone who has main's summoner since it released in 2.0 is the most pointless thing to even do. The people who are complaining about Summoner are actually non summoner mains actually. The only complaint Summoner had got addressed very early on and it was having to weave so many OGCDs.

second Yoshi-P never actually said any of the things you said and you are just taking what he said COMPLETELY out of context.

He regrets tying summoner and scholar to ACN, thats about it.

added note: They were actually very happy going into shadow bringers with Summoner initial changes and said that when they were previewing it.

[Katchii]

Thats the thing though, what you are pointing out are things that other jobs also have to deal with outside of maybe tanks and healers. Some jobs have it even worse, its the way FFXIV designs their jobs so if you ahve a problem with it the discussion should be address to the job designs as a whole, not to SMN specifically because its mechanically sound and compared to everything else technically sound as well.

Which jobs have it worse?

The job feels terrible to play, to many people. So whether it's technically sound or not is irrelevant at that point.

Edit: i mean just to give you an example RDM to complete their Melee combo takes around 13 seconds. Yes Summoner window is about 20 seconds but RDM loses more from not completing theirs than Summoner does as well as the fact that their melee combo can come at awkward times. This is the same for Ninja burst Windows as well. Bard for example has it really bad too because you have to constantly be rotating through songs and what happens when your best song is up and a transition happens.

While true, it doesn't take a full 2 minutes to build up to their melee rotation, that melee rotation doesn't make up nearly as much damage as the SMN burst window, and they aren't anywhere close to as crippled in their options as a Summoner is when they aren't there.

All of the other jobs still have other tools in their kit they can use that doesn't make them feel completely crippled in the meantime.

This is wha ti mean when i say SMN is fine because within the system of the game its working much like a lot of other jobs. If you want to complain about the system thats fine but complaining about SMN specifically is stupid because if summoner is "broken" then everything is..

Here's the thing though, I've played literally every other job in the game in almost all of it's content. No job feels as bad to play, except BLM for entirely different reasons (way too turret like in a game requiring movement), as Summoner. And you saying RDM has it just as bad is, IMO, completely false considering after I stopped maining a SMN I switch to maining RDM because it felt so much better to play.

Summoner is not "fine."

I do get what you're saying though about the design of other jobs, but SMN has it way worse than the others.

[Wrecktangle]

Except that he isn't wrong. Don't take this the wrong way, but do you play Final Fantasy XIV? What's your prog like? What job to do you play?
- SNIP-
If you want to see a truly insane rotation, look at an optimal Summoner rotation. Literally takes 2 minutes to get through it. WoW doesn't have such a rotation.

You spent an exorbitant amount of time explaining something that not only is inaccurate, but you could have pulled the data from both sites and reviewed it in half the time it took to type it I'd bet.

FYI - I play both games at very high levels. DRG main back ARR/HW and PLD main after.

Just because a rotation is long doesn't mean it's insane or challenging though, it's easily digestible in chunks.

FFXIV and "actually having to make choices" are actually antithetical.

This is accurate.

When people say stuff like that I always wonder what they define as a "good" story.

Speaking personally I enjoy the story. I don't necessarily think it's a "good" story though, but it's certainly enjoyable. I think they do a good job on certain plot concepts and characters especially. I also really find the way they utilize the echo as a storytelling medium to be quite genius. My major issues are the games complete failure to efficiently utilize linkpearls in a meaningful fashion as a storytelling/game medium and how long it would take a new player to catch up through the story.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy FFXIV a little more than WoW in this regard simply because there ARE more buttons to press and therefore it feels more active, but WoW has more actual real decision points in each class rotation due to procs, but with significantly fewer buttons to press. With that said, FFXIV does have too many buttons, it needs to be pruned, just not nearly as pruned as what they did in WoW. Many of my classes have almost 3 full hotbars of abilities with the vast majority of those being used regularly....so, 30-36 abilities? There's no need for that.

FF14 started to get stale again so I figured I'd give WoW a shot again since SL dropped and I liked the Ret changes. However, the other night I found myself with FF14 syndrome and I couldn't figure out why. I had run out of comfortable keybinds. A month in my Ret has 32 ability keybinds; Of those:

• 11 are for DPS
• 2 are offensive CDs
• 6 are defensive CDs
• 5 are healing buttons
• 2 are mobility buttons
• 6 are CC buttons

These aren't even counting consumable keybinds or things like summoning my steward or mount. So yeah it has less DPS buttons than say a DRG, but my DPS buttons have some decent depth or synergy instead of a just plain damage dealing rotation and my utility is actually both useful and impactful and commonly used in some types of content (i.e. M+).

I love FF14 for everything it does right (IMO), but I do wish their combat was more dynamic and jobs had more synergy and depth (in their own kits).

And It doesn't matter which spec is faster or slower, I'm saying that the difference isn't as large as people think for DPS specs.
And that's what the average APM tells us there
And what's that part about geared characters in FFXIV?
Gear doesn't matter in the slightest for most / nearly all classes in terms of APM in FFXIV.
For example, the difference between a full skillspeed SAM and a no skillspeed SAM is like 2 APM.
And the *no*-skillspeed SAM is the "endgame" build throughout the whole expansion.

For the most part, you are looking at a 20-25% difference on average.

And I don't see a class with 90-120 CPM either, even on the most broken secondary stats raid-tier we've had in this game so far.
I was just toning down the exaggeration, it's not like I said that FFXIV classes are just as fast..

25% is a meaningful difference in mechanical speed especially when you consider complexity, depth, synergy, and encounter design. I do agree that it's not as bad as some people say (DEPENDING on which job you play and which class you came from), but it's definitely noticeable, ESPECIALLY if you're coming from a DPS in WoW to a tank in FF14, which you've already successfully acknowledged.

I play Outlaw/Subtlety/Prot Paladin/Warlock, and Summoner/Machinist/Samurai/Bard. Hall of Fame kills on WoW and Ultimates on FF. Both games scratch different itches. Both games are fun for very different reasons.

But, anyone arguing about GCD "being a problem/deterrent" to playing the game, simply hasn't played the game. Their opinion is strictly what they 'read', and it's obvious. In no way shape or form during the combat of XIV in an Ultimate am I thinking to myself, "Man, this combat is slow".

I would argue that using Ultimate as an example of "they haven't simply played the game" is not only inappropriate, but WILDLY so.. While I agree that combat does NOT feel slow in Ultimates, it most certainly does to me in other forms of content, even EXs and Savage.

[Soluna]

Just nitpicking here... but isn't SMNs rotation on a 2m cycle?

I don't play it, but how exactly would that fuck up the whole fight afterwards since there is like a 1minute cutscene you can't skip that resets basically all cooldowns and you start with a complete opener again. And the add phase itself lasts for like 1-2 minutes too (can't quite remember).
And there is no way that the damage buff was 10% btw and neither do you need any significant cooldowns for that add phase itself.

Aside from that, it actually *does* sound like SMN is mechanically broken when this is such an issue.
Other classes don't have these problems.
I could easily delay my cooldowns and use them on the 2nd opener against the boss later as DRG and SAM, most likely as NIN, MNK,BLM, MCH,BRD too - but I haven't played any of them in E8S

If Savage encounters in FFXIV showed me one thing, it's that classes are usually designed in such a way to have cooldowns up at very specific moments and that boss mechanics are usually designed in such a way so that all classes can make use of them, since they are pretty much all on the same cooldown anyway.

I think the main thing that sucks about SMN is the pet abilities 'ghosting'. The guy you replied to though is just complaining about being bad at SMN. Getting 8/8 wyrmwaves, and especially scarlet flames, is extremely strict on 2.48 second or 2.5 seconds gcd.

[KrayZ33]

Me "where as on 14 anything that causes you to stop dps can punish you and it takes a lot of practice to figure out when you should push and hold thing"

This translate to lesrning your job more indept this does not translate into your blanket statement of "hurr durr it ruins your pacing for the enitre fight". It means if you arent doing things correctly it can ruin the whole fight and this applies to ALL JOBS ON 14.

You are kinda weird and super angry.

I quoted you and the statment you made
I'll do it again

Want me to go into even more detail okay lets use E8S as an example. If you are more than a couple GCDS off on SMN or worse a death you will not have Demi Bahamut for the add phase and forced to use Phoenix instead which is much worse and just ruins your pacing for the entire fight

What is there to understand in this other than "Okay, here is this very specific scenario in E8S - if I miss a few GCDs before the add phase, the timings turn to shit for the rest of the fight"
It's *literally* what you said. Nice goalpost moving. Not sure what you smoked but it wasn't enough, you have to chill down some more.

There is nothing to misunderstand in your statment, it's just what you said - and I'm asking how something like that is possible while at the same time saying SMN is fine mechanically. I also asked how a 1 minute cutscene doesn't manage to realign cooldowns for you, again since you were saying that "SMN has never been in a bad state mechanically" in the same flipping post - and then you have the audacity to tell me I don't know what is "good" or "bad" while being all pissed and angry like some rage baby.
I named several classes who don't have these issues at all, 2 of them I played myself in E8S.
The others, I just know, don't face this problem at all to that degree, because I've played them at some point

But it's quite obvious that you are not capable of giving a statisfying answer, considering how hard you dodge this.

[Katchii]

FF14 started to get stale again so I figured I'd give WoW a shot again since SL dropped and I liked the Ret changes. However, the other night I found myself with FF14 syndrome and I couldn't figure out why. I had run out of comfortable keybinds. A month in my Ret has 32 ability keybinds; Of those:

• 11 are for DPS
• 2 are offensive CDs
• 6 are defensive CDs
• 5 are healing buttons
• 2 are mobility buttons
• 6 are CC buttons

These aren't even counting consumable keybinds or things like summoning my steward or mount. So yeah it has less DPS buttons than say a DRG, but my DPS buttons have some decent depth or synergy instead of a just plain damage dealing rotation and my utility is actually both useful and impactful and commonly used in some types of content (i.e. M+).

I love FF14 for everything it does right (IMO), but I do wish their combat was more dynamic and jobs had more synergy and depth (in their own kits).

I honestly hadn't noticed just how many buttons each class actually has because in most cases for me, half of them are flavor only, or so rarely used as to be forgotten. Some classes have more flavor abilities than others too.

Honest question, of those 32 buttons, how many do you regularly use, or use enough for them to actually warrant a keybind versus one off to the side that you just click when you need it or want it?

In FFXIV, the number of abilities I use regularly enough to need to be on an easy to access keybind far exceed that in WoW. That's not saying I don't use them, but not regularly enough to require easy access.