Years ago, Blizzard misidentified the problem

[Stickiler]

Sylvanas knew about all this BS HOW???????????????????? Nice story line......

Uhh, cos the Jailer pulled her into the maw and made a deal with her when she threw herself from Icecrown? L2Lore.

[msdos]

Uhh, cos the Jailer pulled her into the maw and made a deal with her when she threw herself from Icecrown? L2Lore.

Is that in game? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

It's not in the game, who cares, you made it up for all I know.

[haiyken]

The alternative is that they don't timegate anything, people finish everything in a week and then whine for months that they have nothing to do.

Neither extreme works, but there really isn't a middle ground to be had beyond making the 'repeatable' content rewarding/compelling.

My solution would be to add tons upon tons of things to collect: toys, cosmetics mounts etc from basically every source in the game. But piling that stuff on creates its own set of potential issues so that's easier said than done.

I agree with you, but we can see that with Shadowlands launch, people where already forming groups and collecting all mounts or special items as soon as possible. Blizzard can't produce that much content quickly enough to satisfy this type of gameplay habits. Players have became more organized than ever and it's difficult to design a game around that. When I say "players", I'm talking here about the same players that complain about content drought here on the forums. Players rushing through content as soon as possible. Blizzard can't be designing the game around them only. As you said, total freedom make the content obsolete in a matter of days and building timegating barriers create frustration. The only solution for the devs is to make something that feels right for them as the game they want to offer, and players have to adapt to it eventually, or move on.

[Accendor]

It has literally the same payment model.

Compare the shops

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Huh? It's the same one as WoW.

Not even close, compare the shops

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It's the same payment model as WoW, except it costs less per month but doesn't have a token feature. Also, logging in everyday is only cool if It's on a mobile game.

Mobile games are trash in general, also check out the ff14 shop

[Wilfire]

Compare the shops

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Not even close, compare the shops

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Mobile games are trash in general, also check out the ff14 shop

WoW effectively has buyable BiS gear since you can convert tokens into boosts. After coming out of an unrewarding keystone and seeing the trade chat, you can't help but wonder if it's intentional. Struggling to gear up? Make use of our boosters for the low price of 51 pounds!

[czarek]

Another QQ story. Just leave it or play it if enjoy or not. What a problems

[Mysterymask]

WoW effectively has buyable BiS gear since you can convert tokens into boosts. After coming out of an unrewarding keystone and seeing the trade chat, you can't help but wonder if it's intentional. Struggling to gear up? Make use of our boosters for the low price of 51 pounds!

And you can farm the gold yourself and buy those same boosts..wows in game economy wouldnt exist without the lazy

[WowIsDead64]

The problem that Blizzard identified were content droughts. People, especially towards the latter half of SoO and HFC were quitting because they had completed the game. Blizzard thought that this was a problem and time-gating, extreme RNG and padded out infinite content like M+ were born. It was a losing fight anyway.

No game, will ever, no matter how great it is, be able to occupy people's attention every day for years upon years. There is an activity that does that: it's called real life. A game with "infinite" content would have to be a virtual copy of the real world.

People play video games to escape the real world. By padding out WoW, great experiences like pushing rankings, ratings and tackling new bosses are diluted in an endless swamp of extracurricular currencies, reputations, weekly and daily activities and vanity rewards.

Like the director of FF14 said, after you beat a game you quit until the next content update. The solution to content droughts was a different pricing model instead of the archaic subscription model.

Instead of recognizing that WoW has huge spikes during expansion and content patch releases, Blizzard decided to fight a losing battle and retain customers all year round. This is a fight they'll never win but they'll dilute the game to the nth degree to try so.

I agree, because for me so called "exceeding content" = quitting. For me the best thing - is replayable content. Content, that is finite, but if I want more of it - I replay it on alt. It's me, who decide, when and how much content I need. Not Blizzard. And overall for me it's very bad, when content, that I want to play and replay, is gated behinde some other content, I don't like, that is "one time" for players, who do it only once, that it isn't problem for them, but it's big problem for me. And I also don't like so called "mixed" content, i.e. when Blizzard assume, that every players should like all content in their game, so they make it all mandatory, but it doesn't work this way for me.

But there is several counter-agruments. Like "If Blizzard still do it, than may be this concept works?" or "It's MMO - it's about grind, RNG and time-gating".

[Swnem]

Compare the shops

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Not even close, compare the shops

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Mobile games are trash in general, also check out the ff14 shop

No, dude. The game model is the same. Subscription and xpac every 2 years.
Their shop has more stuff, but WoW's has the same. They just don't have decos cause there is no housing in WoW.
Both have mounts, cosmetic gear, boosts and transfers.

It's exactly the same and they are both the most sucessful mmo's in the market atm, so the model is the correct one.

[Biggles Worth]

Like the director of FF14 said, after you beat a game you quit until the next content update. The solution to content droughts was a different pricing model instead of the archaic subscription model.

If the content isn't good I don't even make it to the point of beating the game and quit before then, coming back usually after the 2nd major content update unless the first looked good. That being said when the content is actually good, I beat the game and the I DO NOT QUIT, I continue to play accomplishing achievements and play other classes. I enjoy a game that is fun over short term newness.

[Wilfire]

But there is several counter-agruments. Like "If Blizzard still do it, than may be this concept works?" or "It's MMO - it's about grind, RNG and time-gating".

1. Blizzard is notorious for continuing to push concepts that do not work - such as borrowed powers. Ion and his team and the lore team can all continue to believe that their design works but the fact is they have no idea what made WoW be such a strong game in the original trilogy. No matter how much people will kick and scream in the forums that the concept works, the fact is that they are in the minority. The vast majority of people that have ever played WoW have agreed that the concept does not work and accordingly quit WoW. There are people out there that enjoy being cut with knives. Just because there are a couple of people who enjoy a bad concept it does not mean that it works.

2. WoW became popular in the first place because it did away with the archaic MMO concepts of Everquest and its predecessors. 2004 concepts do not work in 2020. People have changed. The game has changed. People's approach to gaming has changed. The video game landscape has changed. Concepts such grinding and RNG in MMOs existed simply because they designers didn't have decades worth of experience. Now that they have, they should know better and actually design a game that people want to play instead of holding out a carrot on a stick.

Despite all that's been said, the core problem of WoW will persist until people grow the balls to address it head-on. In MMOs, the content are OTHER PEOPLE. No amount of grinding, RNG and time-gating will ever cover up the fact that WoW's community is absolutely vile and decidedly unfun to interact with. No amount of self-isolation in guilds and communities will change the fact that the moment you step outside of your little bubble, you will get trash talked by absolute pricks day in, day out. But instead of designing the game in a way that encourages people to bring each other up instead of tearing each other down, Blizzard continues to push elitist e-sports shit that only appeals to ego-trippers who are content to call everyone who's below them in r.io score or pvp rating "retards" all day long.

[Seliar]

Sorry, but that was the rationalization Blizz came up with.

In reality, Blizz developed less content with each expansion since Wrath. However, Blizz didn't want to admit to the obvious reality of that situation.

Vanilla had 20 dungeons and 4 raids. Raids were progressive (you largely needed to clear the first one before moving to the next).

BC added 16 dungeons, 11 zones, and 8 raids. Raids were progressive. New races, new start zones, new profession, and new flight.

Wrath added 16 dungeons, 11 zones, and 9 raids. Raids were mostly progressive. New class, new start zone, and new profession.

Cata added 12 dungeons, 2 revamped dungeons, 12 zones, and 6 raids. Raids were mostly progressive. New races, new start zones, revamped original zones, and new profession.

MoP added 9 dungeons, 9 zones, and 5 raids. Raids weren't really progressive. New race and class, new start zone, and pet battles.

WoD added 8 dungeons, 8 zones, and 3 raids. Raids weren't progressive. New table and "housing".

Legion added 10 dungeons, 3 revamped dungeons, 9 zones, and 5 raids. New class and new artifact tree that was largely abandoned in the last year.

BfA added 11 dungeons, 8 zones, and 5 raids. Nothing really new added (sorry, allied races are reskins, not new races).

SL added 8 dungeons, torghast, 4 1/2 zones (Maw = .5 zones), and likely 3-4 raids. Torghast is new, but not really substantive.

Now, go back and look at the numbers and new things added. That is the real degradation. Blizz has been trying to solve the problem of being lazy (i.e. not providing much content or anything really new) with randomization (M+ and Torghast)...which is just lazy. This is the true problem.

Why don't you compare the number of bosses (excluding reskinned ones) instead the number of raid instances?
Here are the numbers:

Vanilla - 44 + 16 from 20 man raids
BC - 30 + 21 bosses from 10 man raids
WotLK - 34
Cata - 28
MoP - 43
WoD - 30
Leigon - 40
BfA - 39

[Ragnarohk]

The CORE appeal of WoW was guilds competing with each other on the same server for progression goals

I doubt that was a "core" aspect, considering that most players don't raid.

[Zka]

OP is completely right except that m+ IS the kind of content that the game needs to keep people playing. It's a fucking MMO. We need GROUP CONTENT that is replayable, well rewarded and meaningful. M+ is a good direction.
Sadly M+ is neglected, ill-tuned and currently underrewarded. Instead of meaningful replayable group content we have all these mandatory or semi-mandatory timegated solo borefests (campaigns, wqs, torghast, etc) to keep people subbed. It's ridicolous. Absolutely wrong directon, it made me finally quit retail.

[kiramon]

Why don't you compare the number of bosses (excluding reskinned ones) instead the number of raid instances?
Here are the numbers:

Vanilla - 44 + 16 from 20 man raids
BC - 30 + 21 bosses from 10 man raids
WotLK - 34
Cata - 28
MoP - 43
WoD - 30
Leigon - 40
BfA - 39

It’s not really fair. Mechanically and graphically we’ve come a long way in the details. Just look at Molten core and SSC compared to castle nathria - a lot more time put into it


I do agree with blizzard that you don’t just need to anything to something... but with a nearly 20 year old game, you might want to keep adding races ans things to spice things up besides reusing old tier sets/borrowed powers in new ways... especially when you remove new tier sets in the process

[tikcol]

archaic

Yes, I agree.

[T-34]

But instead of designing the game in a way that encourages people to bring each other up instead of tearing each other down, Blizzard continues to push elitist e-sports shit that only appeals to ego-trippers who are content to call everyone who's below them in r.io score or pvp rating "retards" all day long.

AHAHAHHA. I should have recognized it at the beginning.
It just another thread lamenting the fact that others don't like to carry people and want to play with people on their same level.

Nobody should bring you up, it is your own responsibility to get better at the game. Of course if you want to get better and not just get carried.

[SirBeef]

Except the ff14 payment model is shit and logging in every day is cool

And Blizzard told players many years ago to unsub and comeback when content was dropped.

They will never create faster than players consume. Time gating controls that a bit, but how is it any different than only being able to get 7 badges a week or limited attempts on bosses? Things that were around when most here consider the best era in WoW. I'd rather have a controlled release than binge.

[Lodreh]

Years ago, Blizzard misidentified the problem
The problem that Blizzard identified were content droughts...

That is a viable problem... however their solution is what you seem to be criticizing. The solution to content droughts should have been more content... not time gating or heavy RNG. I feel that the Devs need to look at time management a bit better. I should be able to complete all weekly progression (outside of group instanced content Mythic+/Raids/PvP) within 1-2 hours tops. Daily gains should be doable in 30-60 mins. This leaves plenty of time to wrap up story quest, level alts, or go heavy into group content. My biggest issue with Shadowlands is by the time I do the chores I am either burned out or out of time to do anything else. The story may be great but only able to see one chapter a week is soul crushing. Let me knock it out over a weekend. To top all of this off I'm done with ground pounding. FFS who thought it would be fun to run the maw on foot? It's the most ridiculous thing so far... I can't even begin to understand the backwards thinking sometimes.

[WowIsDead64]

...

When I say "This concept works", I doesn't actually mean, that players like it. Sometimes players don't like something, but keep playing anyway. There are some other metrics, shareholders like, like MAUs and "player activity". If they're good, then Blizzard don't worry. Overall "Don't like it - don't play it" concept works here. It doesn't mean "If you don't like something - then just quit". It means "Companies do only what WE allow them to do". If players allow Blizzard to do it, then it's players' fault, that we have such game now.