People leaving groups after certain bosses

[Sevyvia]

Nothing can force players to do something they don't want to. Life is about choices. If I choose to leave a dungeon after the boss I'm hunting, I am free to do so. This is not a selfish move. There is no contract that binds me to completing the dungeon.

You're correct in saying that you can choose to leave a dungeon at any time. You are completely wrong that it isn't a selfish move. It's as selfish as you can be, actually. It makes you a bad person, but judging by this, I strongly suspect you give just about zero fucks about being a bad person. Which, in itself, helps make you one. Funny how all that works out.

[Nynax]

Nothing can force players to do something they don't want to. Life is about choices. If I choose to leave a dungeon after the boss I'm hunting, I am free to do so. This is not a selfish move. There is no contract that binds me to completing the dungeon.

"I'm doing this for me, because it's all I needed, regardless of the impact to others" is the very definition of a selfish move. You have the right to make that choice but own up to it, don't try to justify it to make yourself feel better.

[blankfaced]

Nothing can force players to do something they don't want to. Life is about choices. If I choose to leave a dungeon after the boss I'm hunting, I am free to do so. This is not a selfish move. There is no contract that binds me to completing the dungeon.

Actually queuing for a dungeon in LFD you're agreeing to one of those silent social contracts that's assumed. Just like how we don't shit in the middle of bars when we're too drunk. Well it's convenient for the drunk person right, not so for everyone else. You don't sign a contract explicitly stating all the things you won't do when you get drunk at that particular bar now do you? But there's a set of social norms and guidelines most decent people stick to right?

Also everything you do is a social contract you just don't realize it. In the end that's all laws really are, now aren't they? Unsigned nonverbal contracts. You don't enter every store and sign a contract stating you won't steal right? You don't go to a park and sign a contract stating you won't kidnap right?

[Sunnydee]

It's as selfish as you can be, actually. It makes you a bad person, but judging by this, I strongly suspect you give just about zero fucks about being a bad person. Which, in itself, helps make you one. Funny how all that works out.

If you want to be technical, it's a nice move, since you are allowing a bigger playerbase to enter for rest of the bosses which you don't need loot from, and allowing them to get upgrades you prob would of vendored.

Idc really. but just seeing it from 1 side is kinda biased.

[Resheph]

If you want to be technical, it's a nice move, since you are allowing a bigger playerbase to enter for rest of the bosses which you don't need ...

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
This is the worst justification imaginable dude, phrasing abandoning the group as an altruistic act is disingenuous.

Also, even though I should not even try to find merit in your words, even if you really thought that way it's false, as tanks and healers on get their bonus satchels after a full run, they get nothing for beating a partial dungeon. So you actually f over more people than just your group.

[Bloodyleech]

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
This is the worst justification imaginable dude, phrasing abandoning the group as an altruistic act is disingenuous.

Also, even though I should not even try to find merit in your words, even if you really thought that way it's false, as tanks and healers on get their bonus satchels after a full run, they get nothing for beating a partial dungeon. So you actually f over more people than just your group.

They get their satchel if they join a run that's already going. Killing the last boss gives it, even if you do not join at the start.

[Jonnusthegreat]

I think for most people, mainly old time players of the game, the idea of leaving a dungeon before the end is not well accepted because of how the game used to work. Before LFR, joining a group to do a dungeon kind of created a moral contract, where people acted well with each other and did their best to complete the dungeon to the end. Leaving a group in the middle of the run often caused the group to disband because it was difficult to make someone join for only half a dungeon, it ment losing so much time to go back to the city to find someone, etc. For a lot of people, there is still a moral contract between player joining a dungeon, even through LFR, where all of the players are expected to complete the dungeon together. All of this may be naive in 2021, but a lot of people expect that of social interactions, even in a video game.

This is true, you can have expectations of others, but that does not make those expectations "correct." Each individual has their own interpretation of morality and fairness; implying yours is the correct one is simply narcissism. You can believe them to be rude, but that's just an opinion. That's all I was trying to say.

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You're correct in saying that you can choose to leave a dungeon at any time. You are completely wrong that it isn't a selfish move. It's as selfish as you can be, actually. It makes you a bad person, but judging by this, I strongly suspect you give just about zero fucks about being a bad person. Which, in itself, helps make you one. Funny how all that works out.

Is you mandating that others do what you want them to do against their wishes not selfish?

Everyone acts selfishly. Selfishness depends on who you are talking to. I think forcing others into game slavery is selfish, but you seem to think that wanting to be free is selfish. To each his own. Everyone has his own perspective. None of them are right, none of them are wrong.

If you say I am a bad person, then I am. To you. If I say you are a bad person, then you are. To me. There is no universal definition. That's the point.

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"I'm doing this for me, because it's all I needed, regardless of the impact to others" is the very definition of a selfish move. You have the right to make that choice but own up to it, don't try to justify it to make yourself feel better.

How would you justify forcing someone to do something they don't want to do because it is in your best interests?

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Actually queuing for a dungeon in LFD you're agreeing to one of those silent social contracts that's assumed. Just like how we don't shit in the middle of bars when we're too drunk. Well it's convenient for the drunk person right, not so for everyone else. You don't sign a contract explicitly stating all the things you won't do when you get drunk at that particular bar now do you? But there's a set of social norms and guidelines most decent people stick to right?

Also everything you do is a social contract you just don't realize it. In the end that's all laws really are, now aren't they? Unsigned nonverbal contracts. You don't enter every store and sign a contract stating you won't steal right? You don't go to a park and sign a contract stating you won't kidnap right?

The entire problem is your assumption is flawed. There is no social contract. It is your personal playstyle. Not everyone's. Shitting in the middle of bars is not a social contract, it's literally a law. You are comparing doing something that is allowed to breaking the law. Horrible analogy.

Laws can be broken - you face the consequences of breaking them. Just like this scenario. If you leave a dungeon after killing a boss - you face the consequence. What is the consequence? Literally nothing. It is literally hard-coded into the game to REMOVE all penalties for leaving once a boss is killed.

[SirBeef]

Actually queuing for a dungeon in LFD you're agreeing to one of those silent social contracts that's assumed. Just like how we don't shit in the middle of bars when we're too drunk. Well it's convenient for the drunk person right, not so for everyone else. You don't sign a contract explicitly stating all the things you won't do when you get drunk at that particular bar now do you? But there's a set of social norms and guidelines most decent people stick to right?

Also everything you do is a social contract you just don't realize it. In the end that's all laws really are, now aren't they? Unsigned nonverbal contracts. You don't enter every store and sign a contract stating you won't steal right? You don't go to a park and sign a contract stating you won't kidnap right?

Unwritten rules are not rules or agreements. If I'm looking for a piece of gear a d it drops on the first boss and I don't have a quest for it I'll bounce unless I'm with a guildie. I am under no obligation to finish a run if Ingot what I need. Most of the time I do because I enjoy tanking and they go by quick. But I don't have to.

[Lolites]

"I'm doing this for me, because it's all I needed, regardless of the impact to others" is the very definition of a selfish move. You have the right to make that choice but own up to it, don't try to justify it to make yourself feel better.

isnt everyone in dungeon bs they need something from there? tbh him leaving after boss that drops what he wants is not more selfish than you wanting him to stay bcs what you want drops from last boss...
and if him leaving doesnt stop you from trying to get it (like if its M+), you just need another player its not realy much of an issue...
its not like we are in vanila where you would have to go to city to find another person and then get him back to instance you just have to click few times and wait, and you can actualy port out and do whatever you need in meantime so its not realy even waste of time

[SirBeef]

"I'm doing this for me, because it's all I needed, regardless of the impact to others" is the very definition of a selfish move. You have the right to make that choice but own up to it, don't try to justify it to make yourself feel better.

The whole reason dungeon finder/LFD/LFG was to help quickly solve issues like these, more so to find a group quickly, but if said group fell apart prior to, it could take even longer to find a replacement. You requeue and a replacement is found rather quickly.

[Lolites]

Actually queuing for a dungeon in LFD you're agreeing to one of those silent social contracts that's assumed.

sure, and that social contract is "im helping you kill stuff in dungeon untill i decide otherwise"... just like you dont need to remain if the group is horrible you dont need to remain if its just waste of time for you...
its different in M+ bcs there someone leaving actualy stops others from achieving why they are in, in random dungeon its not realy issue, just minor inconvenience

[haiyken]

This is true, you can have expectations of others, but that does not make those expectations "correct." Each individual has their own interpretation of morality and fairness; implying yours is the correct one is simply narcissism. You can believe them to be rude, but that's just an opinion. That's all I was trying to say.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just stating facts. As I said, it's an evolution of how the game was played before so it's to be expected that long time players are attached to this kind of behavior.

I do think it's not wrong to expect people that you help (to get to the point of the dungeon that interest you) to help you in return (to finish the dungeon). I don't think it's selfish at all to think this way, I think it's respectful. If someone help you climb a wall by boosting you up, won't you give them you hand to help them climb too ? This may be considered a selfish behavior for a lot of people.

I don't think you'll change you mind on all of this but I honestly think you value yourself above all other people. And there is nothing wrong with that. I'm not personnally like that, so I disagree with you, but I don't think either of us is right or wrong.

That said, there will always be two sides to this "people leaving dungeons" issue who disagree and there is probably no way to reconciliate the two.

[Nynax]

How would you justify forcing someone to do something they don't want to do because it is in your best interests

I'm not suggesting "forcing" anyone to do anything. As I see it, an individual expecting one person to stay just for me would be selfish. However, as a team, one person abandoning the group is selfish. Yes LFG can make this point moot, but only if the leaver is a DPS and obviously it's worse abandoning a Mythic. The "social contract" is a 5 man team working together to finish a dungeon. One person saying "well I got what I need, peace" to the other 4, clearly only looking out for themselves, is acting objectively selfish. Whether or not that is immoral is up to your own conscience.

isnt everyone in dungeon bs they need something from there? tbh him leaving after boss that drops what he wants is not more selfish than you wanting him to stay bcs what you want drops from last boss...
and if him leaving doesnt stop you from trying to get it (like if its M+), you just need another player its not realy much of an issue...
its not like we are in vanila where you would have to go to city to find another person and then get him back to instance you just have to click few times and wait, and you can actualy port out and do whatever you need in meantime so its not realy even waste of time

Personally, I just think it's more considerate if everyone that joins a dungeon group stays for the full run. It's not just about me, it's about wanting players to help each other out. Clearly Blizz even agrees in part, because dungeon abandonment was such an issue with Legion world quests that they had to force the issue.

The whole reason dungeon finder/LFD/LFG was to help quickly solve issues like these, more so to find a group quickly, but if said group fell apart prior to, it could take even longer to find a replacement. You requeue and a replacement is found rather quickly.

Correct that LFG is a very useful tool that solves some of this issue for players. That doesn't suddenly mean it isn't selfish to abandon a group, it just means it's less inconvenient for the people left behind.

All I'm saying is that leaving a group because you got what you want is objectively selfish (lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.) Being selfish isn't always a horrible, terrible thing. We all need to be at least a little selfish in love, work, and parts of life...but I'd rather not shy away from being aware of the actions we take.

[SirBeef]

I'm not suggesting "forcing" anyone to do anything. As I see it, an individual expecting one person to stay just for me would be selfish. However, as a team, one person abandoning the group is selfish. Yes LFG can make this point moot, but only if the leaver is a DPS and obviously it's worse abandoning a Mythic. The "social contract" is a 5 man team working together to finish a dungeon. One person saying "well I got what I need, peace" to the other 4, clearly only looking out for themselves, is acting objectively selfish. Whether or not that is immoral is up to your own conscience.



Personally, I just think it's more considerate if everyone that joins a dungeon group stays for the full run. It's not just about me, it's about wanting players to help each other out. Clearly Blizz even agrees in part, because dungeon abandonment was such an issue with Legion world quests that they had to force the issue.



Correct that LFG is a very useful tool that solves some of this issue for players. That doesn't suddenly mean it isn't selfish to abandon a group, it just means it's less inconvenient for the people left behind.

All I'm saying is that leaving a group because you got what you want is objectively selfish (lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.) Being selfish isn't always a horrible, terrible thing. We all need to be at least a little selfish in love, work, and parts of life...but I'd rather not shy away from being aware of the actions we take.

Never claimed it wasn't selfish. But do not think doe one second I'm obligated to do something for you or anyone else, especially if I don't want to.

[Jonnusthegreat]

I'm not suggesting "forcing" anyone to do anything. As I see it, an individual expecting one person to stay just for me would be selfish. However, as a team, one person abandoning the group is selfish. Yes LFG can make this point moot, but only if the leaver is a DPS and obviously it's worse abandoning a Mythic. The "social contract" is a 5 man team working together to finish a dungeon. One person saying "well I got what I need, peace" to the other 4, clearly only looking out for themselves, is acting objectively selfish. Whether or not that is immoral is up to your own conscience.

So it seems that everyone is acting selfishly. Then there are two ways to proceed: sacrifice the few's wishes for the greater's good, or for those in control to assert there own will. Obviously, those in control are the ones in charge of determining the outcome of the group. Whether or not it's a good choice is up to interpretation.

[Ladey Gags]

The fact this thread thread has gone in this long is absolute testament to the selfishness and insanity of Western society. You people are fucking pathetic

[Stelio Kontos]

The simple way to try to mitigate assholes being assholes in this case would have been to make the legendaries drop from final bosses in dungeons. That or extend the deserter debuff to willfully leaving the dungeon at any point rather than the first few minutes/before the first boss.

[Stormwolf64]

You're correct in saying that you can choose to leave a dungeon at any time. You are completely wrong that it isn't a selfish move. It's as selfish as you can be, actually. It makes you a bad person, but judging by this, I strongly suspect you give just about zero fucks about being a bad person. Which, in itself, helps make you one. Funny how all that works out.

If you think this world and society rewards goodness then i have terrible news for you. Now i'm not saying people should be bad, but trying to be good and expecting it back in return is just asking for trouble.

[Logwyn]

There should be a chest that pops up at the end of a 5man. Then how many ever rolls you could get. Then you have to run the whole run. Simple solution

[Charge me Doctor]

Never claimed it wasn't selfish. But do not think doe one second I'm obligated to do something for you or anyone else, especially if I don't want to.

With logic like this, do you also run around dungeon meleeing things, instead of doing DPS? I mean, you are not obligated to *actually* do DPS, right? Or heal? It's not your problem that people keep dying from avoidable damage, right? If you're acting like an asshole, don't try to rationalize being an asshole. Leaving a dungeon as a tank will end up in a group falling apart and 30 minute queue for 3 of your DPS players, or it'll take 15 minutes to find a replacement (at least it used to be 4 weeks ago or so, maybe it's even worse now).