Capitol Insurrection / rebellion thread

[Acidbaron]

But what you are proposing do not go against their 1A about free speech ? That you can say whatever you want, even the most heinous things ? And that is why you have people wearing shirts with nazi symbol on it ? Where you would go straight in jail in EU ?

If you incite hate speech in Europe, if you were to say things like "jews control the media" and a mob would act on it you would be held accountable for said words.
Glorification of the nazi regime is also punishable by law and for good reason, but banning alone does not work that's why parallel to the ban we also get educated by it in school and we visit prison camps from said regime which are all over Europe.

And this brings another painful issue to the surface in the US, your education system is such a mess. Local politicians should never be allowed without federal approval from a dedicated education board about what the school programming is. You can force this change by making a federal fund for this, what would also in the long run deal with the issue of public schools being underfunded.

The freedom to do just about anything without any consequences is an non-workable concept. You already have hate speech laws in the US.

Also the whole amendment is grossly outdated and missing dozens of revisions. What is another root issue in American politics and believes as it's based of notions that are 200 years old. It was never intended to be treated as a bible and even the bible has had many revisions over the time it was out.

In short the more you think about this the more issues you run into, not so much about the "freedoms" which are used as a carrot in front of people to accept all short of shit that's not good for them. But a long spree of deregulation and complicated bureaucratic systems that are inefficient and no longer serve the people.

To come back to education, elsewhere in the Western world the notion that your public schools are not good enough if not flat out bad for the education of your children would simply not be tolerated, let alone be accepted.

[Specialka]

Thats not entirely true.. you can walk around with swastikas in the EU.. In some countries in the EU it is [probably] illegal, in others it is not, pick a country where it is not and you can do that.

I was mostly refering to France and Germany. I don't know the law of all others countries, but I do know that you can that sort of shit in some Eastern Eu countries for sure.

[jonnysensible]

It's illegal in Germany at least along with most other markers of the Third Reich.

its why the use the confederate flag at rallys as a replacement

[Acidbaron]

Thats not entirely true.. you can walk around with swastikas in the EU.. In some countries in the EU it is [probably] illegal, in others it is not, pick a country where it is not and you can do that.

When combined with promoting hate speech or racially motivated it's forbidden in a whole lot of places. Some nations context matters in others it's a blanket ban.

That being said i am not sure where context would justify it. However i am glad Germany moved away from banning it in games.

[Specialka]

If you incite hate speech in Europe, if you were to say things like "jews control the media" and a mob would act on it you would be held accountable for said words.
Glorification of the nazi regime is also punishable by law and for good reason, but banning alone does not work that's why parallel to the ban we also get educated by it in school and we visit prison camps from said regime which are all over Europe.

And this brings another painful issue to the surface in the US, your education system is such a mess. Local politicians should never be allowed without federal approval from a dedicated education board about what the school programming is. You can force this change by making a federal fund for this, what would also in the long run deal with the issue of public schools being underfunded.

The freedom to do just about anything without any consequences is an non-workable concept. You already have hate speech laws in the US.

Also the whole amendment is grossly outdated and missing dozens of revisions. What is another root issue in American politics and believes as it's based of notions that are 200 years old. It was never intended to be treated as a bible and even the bible has had many revisions over the time it was out.

In short the more you think about this the more issues you run into, not so much about the "freedoms" which are used as a carrot in front of people to accept all short of shit that's not good for them. But a long spree of deregulation and complicated bureaucratic systems that are inefficient and no longer serve the people.

To come back to education, elsewhere in the Western world the notion that your public schools are not good enough if not flat out bad for the education of your children would simply not be tolerated, let alone be accepted.

Just for the record, I am not from the US. I am from France. And I do agree with you. The question is: is the US ready for all those reforms ? And while you are it, it is time to also enact gun restriction laws. Guns are quite a big part of a high number of issues in the US.

[Nastard]

I wonder if Skroe still reads these forums, and what his opinions are during all of this. Would he find it all amusing Trump is leaving in disgrace as he always hoped/predicted? Or is he too saddened by how far we've fallen to take any joy from how horrible the rest of Trump's life will be.

For me, nothing Trump can possibly endure in the remainder of his short miserable life could ever offset even a FRACTION of the damage he's done. The thousands of people that are gone forever because of him are something we can never get back. So, I can't take any personal joy in how this big fat orange turd is getting flushed... Being able to say "I told you so" happened far too late. We've already lost too much.

[jonnysensible]

i wonder if skroe still reads these forums, and what his opinions are during all of this. Would he find it all amusing trump is leaving in disgrace as he always hoped/predicted? Or is he too saddened by how far we've fallen to take any joy from how horrible the rest of trump's life will be.

the mueller thread : Trumps going to jail now im sure of it this time for sure part 26 : The russians did it

[Acidbaron]

Just for the record, I am not from the US. I am from France. And I do agree with you. The question is: is the US ready for all those reforms ? And while you are it, it is time to also enact gun restriction laws. Guns are quite a big part of a high number of issues in the US.

Gun issues would be less if you give people a social security net to fall back on and their kids an education for free they can live comfortable lives with from one job.

[Xarkan]

When combined with promoting hate speech or racially motivated it's forbidden in a whole lot of places. Some nations context matters in others it's a blanket ban.

That being said i am not sure where context would justify it. However i am glad Germany moved away from banning it in games.

I am hardly in favour of people wearing such symbols [though until a group wearing symbols use the symbols in a manner against my countrys constitution i kinda think let them so others can see what trash they are.] I am more against propaganda about what the EU is or does

[Muxtar]

The freedom to do just about anything without any consequences is an non-workable concept. You already have hate speech laws in the US.

Also the whole amendment is grossly outdated and missing dozens of revisions. What is another root issue in American politics and believes as it's based of notions that are 200 years old. It was never intended to be treated as a bible and even the bible has had many revisions over the time it was out.

In short the more you think about this the more issues you run into, not so much about the "freedoms" which are used as a carrot in front of people to accept all short of shit that's not good for them. But a long spree of deregulation and complicated bureaucratic systems that are inefficient and no longer serve the people.

To come back to education, elsewhere in the Western world the notion that your public schools are not good enough if not flat out bad for the education of your children would simply not be tolerated, let alone be accepted.

Things you say, although how good their intentions are, will most surely lead to more and more censorship, where only one point of view is allowed (all hail LGBT/feminism/afro-americans), and any other opinion is criminal as it is. We already see this in Oscars 'reform' as good example. And as 'other opinion' I don't necessarily mean hateful/racist speeches towards these groups, just 'not worshipping' will do as well. You can remember all the hate that one woman from some NFL team received when she refused to bend the knee during BLM hysteria. And that was during the presidency of Trump - I can inly imagine what will happen to such people now that democrats have all the lawful power in their hands, and what laws will be made soon enough to enforce this.

Never in human history forceful shutting up of another opinion led to anything good. You can look to Nazi/USSR experience to know that.

Just to be clear: I strongly condemn all that circus show that happened at Capitol, it was lawless and savage (and all who broken into Capitol should be punished), but shutting people's mouth when they disagree with your agenda will only lead to more and more such cases, and they will become more and more bloody.
Because Trump (as cretin as he is), was elected in 2016 for a reason, there was huge demand for the man outside corrupt and hypocrite system that rules this country for many many years, and it so happened that only freak from TV was bold enough to understand that and make it happen.

[zealo]

I wonder if Skroe still reads these forums, and what his opinions are during all of this. Would he find it all amusing Trump is leaving in disgrace as he always hoped/predicted? Or is he too saddened by how far we've fallen to take any joy from how horrible the rest of Trump's life will be.

For me, nothing Trump can possibly endure in the remainder of his short miserable life could ever offset even a FRACTION of the damage he's done. The thousands of people that are gone forever because of him are something we can never get back. So, I can't take any personal joy in how this big fat orange turd is getting flushed... Being able to say "I told you so" happened far too late. We've already lost too much.

Skroe still visits this forum on occasion, while his account is banned it still shows the most recent activity on his profile, which at the time of writing was yesterday.

[szechuan]

lmao

[Very Tired]

But what you are proposing do not go against their 1A about free speech ? That you can say whatever you want, even the most heinous things ? And that is why you have people wearing shirts with nazi symbol on it ? Where you would go straight in jail in EU ?

Just a note, the first amendment and all the other amendments for that matter, only serve as a list of rules of what the government can and can't do to the people. Private businesses not part of the government, like the owners of all social media platforms, have no obligation to provide 'free speech' and can remove your account for any reason they feel like.

And the founding fathers implemented free speech for a much more noble purpose than what people are trying to use it for. Freedom of speech stops when it leads to problems like yelling 'fire' in a crowded movie theater, or when it causes a crapfest like what happened in the capitol.

[postman1782]

lmao

Not really surprising. She was basically caucusing with them while wearing a D next to her name in the election.

[Acidbaron]

Things you say, although how good their intentions are, will most surely lead to more and more censorship, where only one point of view is allowed (all hail LGBT/feminism/afro-americans), and any other opinion is criminal as it is. We already see this in Oscars 'reform' as good example. And as 'other opinion' I don't necessarily mean hateful/racist speeches towards these groups, just 'not worshipping' will do as well. You can remember all the hate that one woman from some NFL team received when she refused to bend the knee during BLM hysteria. And that was during the presidency of Trump - I can inly imagine what will happen to such people now that democrats have all the lawful power in their hands, and what laws will be made soon enough to enforce this.

Never in human history forceful shutting up of another opinion led to anything good. You can look to Nazi/USSR experience to know that.

Just to be clear: I strongly condemn all that circus show that happened at Capitol, it was lawless and savage (and all who broken into Capitol should be punished), but shutting people's mouth when they disagree with your agenda will only lead to more and more such cases, and they will become more and more bloody.
Because Trump (as cretin as he is), was elected in 2016 for a reason, there was huge demand for the man outside corrupt and hypocrite system that rules this country for many many years, and it so happened that only freak from TV was bold enough to understand that and make it happen.

You are throwing a lot of things together here in one big pot.

I want to start with saying enforcing hate speech laws is not censorship and passing it off as censorship is simply in my opinion fearmongering, that also goes for using a slippery slope argument that points to fascist regimes, because if one knows what can go wrong safe guards can be installed, hence the saying throwing away the baby with the bathwater.

Because it's like saying in a car crash an airbag may or may not cause harm, therefor we should remove all airbags from all cars. This is the sort of extreme thinking that makes no sense, this is not an all or nothing game. You don't go through life that way, you don't burn yourself on coffee once and then decide for the rest of your life all you'll ever drink is ice water.

I am not implying you are fear mongering but i do find that people have an irrational amount of fear that by suddenly dealing with harmful opinions in society you are going to end up with a regime to oppresses all opinions not condoned by the state. The amount of work that has to go into all that in a free society to achieve that is not something that will happen overnight or even in a decade. However when you do allow harmful opinions in a society to take root and allow them to fester without opposition you get what we saw on the 6th. People who openly are against freedoms of others trying to demand more control of others, feeling empowered to do so because their current government figurehead embodies it.

Now the anti-PC and PC movement is a discussion completely separate from all this, But if you want to use history as an example. People also said if blacks were allowed to go to the same schools society would crumble and those used to be the "political correct" people. Yes, the racists used to be the people who deemed themselves political correct. My point in short being as this is a discussion of a lot of dept and goes beyond a rather vocal minority of extreme progressives that these are often actions and reactions to one each other and they tend to balance out as financial interests are into play here, but this is separate from hate speech, what my point was about so throwing it all together is in my eyes an attempt muddy the waters, intentional or not.

Because if you think we are censored in Europe, you have never been to an European stand-up Comedian. I can name you one that is popular that you can compare to Bill hicks and they even go a step further.

[Specialka]

Just a note, the first amendment and all the other amendments for that matter, only serve as a list of rules of what the government can and can't do to the people. Private businesses not part of the government, like the owners of all social media platforms, have no obligation to provide 'free speech' and can remove your account for any reason they feel like.

And the founding fathers implemented free speech for a much more noble purpose than what people are trying to use it for. Freedom of speech stops when it leads to problems like yelling 'fire' in a crowded movie theater, or when it causes a crapfest like what happened in the capitol.

And that could lead to issue after this precedent. They can silence whoever they want (though I do understand why they silenced Trump, it could lead to a slippery slope) and why do they waited now to do it while he has been spouting nonsense for 4 years now.

[Dhrizzle]

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/0...on-ctn-vpx.cnn

WARNING THE VIDEO IN THE LINK IS PRETTY FUCKED UP

It's one of the Capitol cops actually doing his job almost getting crushed to death by the wannabe cop-killers in the insurrectionist crowd on Wednesday.

This is the legacy of Trump and the Trump supporters.

Are we allowed to call them deplorable yet or will the right throw another hissy-fit over calling cop-assaulting, America-hating fascists (or fascist-adjacents) mean names?

- - - Updated - - -

And that could lead to issue after this precedent. They can silence whoever they want (though I do understand why they silenced Trump, it could lead to a slippery slope) and why do they waited now to do it while he has been spouting nonsense for 4 years now.

Trump's Twitter account was considered a line of government communication and couldn't be cut off.

[Muxtar]

You are throwing a lot of things together here in one big pot.

I want to start with saying enforcing hate speech laws is not censorship and passing it off as censorship is simply in my opinion fearmongering, that also goes for using a slippery slope argument that points to fascist regimes, because if one knows what can go wrong safe guards can be installed, hence the saying throwing away the baby with the bathwater.

Because it's like saying in a car crash an airbag may or may not cause harm, therefor we should remove all airbags from all cars. This is the sort of extreme thinking that makes no sense, this is not an all or nothing game. You don't go through life that way, you don't burn yourself on coffee once and then decide for the rest of your life all you'll ever drink is ice water.

I am not implying you are fear mongering but i do find that people have an irrational amount of fear that by suddenly dealing with harmful opinions in society you are going to end up with a regime to oppresses all opinions not condoned by the state. The amount of work that has to go into all that in a free society to achieve that is not something that will happen overnight or even in a decade. However when you do allow harmful opinions in a society to take root and allow them to fester without opposition you get what we saw on the 6th. People who openly are against freedoms of others trying to demand more control of others, feeling empowered to do so because their current government figurehead embodies it.

Now the anti-PC and PC movement is a discussion completely separate from all this, But if you want to use history as an example. People also said if blacks were allowed to go to the same schools society would crumble and those used to be the "political correct" people. Yes, the racists used to be the people who deemed themselves political correct. My point in short being as this is a discussion of a lot of dept and goes beyond a rather vocal minority of extreme progressives that these are often actions and reactions to one each other and they tend to balance out as financial interests are into play here, but this is separate from hate speech, what my point was about so throwing it all together is in my eyes an attempt muddy the waters, intentional or not.

Because if you think we are censored in Europe, you have never been to an European stand-up Comedian. I can name you one that is popular that you can compare to Bill hicks and they even go a step further.

I see your point, it sure has some ratio in it. I don't call for leaving things as they are, they are surely fucked up a lot in US. And of course I don't praise that shit that happened on 6th, as well as all the robberies and lootings that were during BLM stuff (btw most of Democrats talking heads prefer ignore that fact). I understand that country is deeply divided for years because of growing social and economic inequality, race questions (local racism is sure still present in US, no doubt) and many more reasons. My guess is that division began long before Trump was elected in 2016 (if not so, he shouldn't have any chances to be elected at all), but those last 4 years of his presidency were like rapid downfall of that division, mostly because of his stupid actions.

So, I am in for fixing things, and I guess Biden wants to do it, but in so deeply divided nation (I guess it's the worst state of US since 1861), and having such radical far-left faction beside him (hi Kamala and Sanders) which are extreme intolerant for any other opinion, I really doubt he will manage a lot. So the pendulum might as well swing either in far-left censorship (that covers itself in tolerancy/equality/democracy), or in far-right censorship (that covers itself is protectionism/nationalism).

But given that fact that all the power now is in the hands of democrats, far-left swing seems more likely.

[Acidbaron]

I see your point, it sure has some ratio in it. I don't call for leaving things as they are, they are surely fucked up a lot in US. And of course I don't praise that shit that happened on 6th, as well as all the robberies and lootings that were during BLM stuff (btw most of Democrats talking heads prefer ignore that fact). I understand that country is deeply divided for years because of growing social and economic inequality, race questions (local racism is sure still present in US, no doubt) and many more reasons. My guess is that division began long before Trump was elected in 2016 (if not so, he shouldn't have any chances to be elected at all), but those last 4 years of his presidency were like rapid downfall of that division, mostly because of his stupid actions.

So, I am in for fixing things, and I guess Biden wants to do it, but in so deeply divided nation (I guess it's the worst state of US since 1861), and having such radical far-left faction beside him (hi Kamala and Sanders) which are extreme intolerant for any other opinion, I really doubt he will manage a lot. So the pendulum might as well swing either in far-left censorship (that covers itself in tolerancy/equality/democracy), or in far-right censorship (that covers itself is protectionism/nationalism).

But given that fact that all the power now is in the hands of democrats, far-left swing seems more likely.

What you describe simply is not the case, you are worried about the influence from the minority of the minority within the democratic party.
Progressives did not win the election, or else Bernie Sanders would have been the candidate. Biden appointing progressive cabinet members is also something that has been in the making for a while as the establishment is being challenged, this is a good thing for democracy but less so for the power of the party. The idea that all democrats will be simply on board with just about everything is something you rarely see and something you won't see now.

Also if Kamala is considered far left in your book you don't know her political background or don't correctly understand the political spectrum, the democratic party including her is centrum-right and it has been that for a long time, over Clinton and Obama it was the same.

Plenty of people have dived into why trump got elected not really feeling digging into that subject again but yes it has been a long time coming this frustration with politics, however the answer to anti-establishment was simply more and more corrupt establishment covered by misinformation and using the age old trick of creating enemies to justify just about any action even if it inflicts harm to one self.

[Timester]

But given that fact that all the power now is in the hands of democrats, far-left swing seems more likely.

There are no "far-left" Democrats, Bernie is the closest to the European concept of Socialism.

Democrats are right / center-right.