If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Pawpurr]

Since we don't have a Warcraft hero to base a Bard on, it's quite possible that they purposely placed Bard concepts into the Priest class.

Right, exactly no examples of bardic/music based characters at all.. Music and sound not important to Blizzard or Warcraft. Right?

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Elite_Tauren_Chieftain
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blight_Boar
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=135538/russel-the-bard
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Schweitzer

We've even been collecting ancient spiritual instruments in the Shadowlands:
https://www.wowhead.com/item=180062/heavenly-drum
https://www.wowhead.com/item=180064/ascended-flute
https://www.wowhead.com/item=179977/benevolent-gong
https://www.wowhead.com/item=179982/kyrian-bell
https://www.wowhead.com/item=180063/unearthly-chime


There has always been this element in WoW, but it's always been relegated to sidequests and memes.

[Teriz]

Right, exactly no examples of bardic/music based characters at all.. Music and sound not important to Blizzard or Warcraft. Right?

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Elite_Tauren_Chieftain
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blight_Boar
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=135538/russel-the-bard
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Schweitzer

Those are all spoof characters. None are legitimate Warcraft heroes. If you disagree, point out a time any of those characters went on adventures with our characters.

We've even been collecting ancient spiritual instruments in the Shadowlands:
https://www.wowhead.com/item=180062/heavenly-drum
https://www.wowhead.com/item=180064/ascended-flute
https://www.wowhead.com/item=179977/benevolent-gong
https://www.wowhead.com/item=179982/kyrian-bell
https://www.wowhead.com/item=180063/unearthly-chime


There has always been this element in WoW, but it's always been relegated to sidequests and memes.

Cool, but nothing particularly noteworthy or new. You could craft musical instruments within professions since Vanilla. You should equip it to your Priest in order to become even more of a Bard.

[Triceron]

I know demon hunters were in demand, but... was the monk class ever in demand?

Monk is the _reason_ why I am considering popularity to be a factor at all.

I consider the class a failed experiment. It was designed with no auto-attacks, originally designed to be a 'Combo Fighter' ala Street Fighter within WoW. The idea couldn't get past alpha stage and the concept was dropped, while the rest of Monk design was already fully featured, announced and too late to drop entirely.

There are certain classes that would FAIL a Modern Design approach, and I believe Monk would be one of them. It's commonly the least-played class in the game. The addition of B-tier classes like a No-Support Role Bard or Goblin/Gnome-only Tinker would only end up taking that position as least-played class. There's very little appeal behind these, and that's why we ended up seeing a fan-favoured pick like Demon Hunter take up the 12 spot as a Leather-wearing Dual Wield DPS (As if we really needed more?) instead of a completely new gameplay oriented class like a Tinker or a Bard.

The only alternative I see to this is if it were added as a Class Skin, because the new themed Class Skin contributes to boosting use of *existing classes* rather than simply inserting a new class that would need its own set of loot, its own gameplay balance, its own roles in a Raid, etc etc.

It doesn't. The bard fantasy is a traveling minstrel, jack-of-all-trades spellcaster who can affect allies and foes alike with the magic of their songs.

So make them a Profession instead. I mentioned this pages back, that the concept and theme actually fits BETTER as a profession if we really wanted to push the fantasy. By all means, Travelling Minstersls play music *to make money*, and what better way than it be a profession?

It could even have combat-use abilities like how Leatherworking had War Drum buffs or Alchemy and Engineering has combat-use ability. It could be a profession that contains every buff that classes have (Mark of the WIld, Fortitude, etc) so that any class can bring the utility where needed by playing music for the group/raid. I think there's plenty of potential here for it, because it runs parallel to Modern Class design.

A Profession and (Priest) Class Skins idea would not affect Gameplay balance, does not bloat the game with extra specs, does not need any PVP consideration, and would not have to be limited to any particular Race. These are what I consider sensible to the game design, and a completely marketable feature. It all fits within the expectations of what a Bard would be within the limits of WoW's game design.

No. No, it's not. Because putting a class concept as just a single extra spec for an already existing class completely nullifies the idea of the fantasy. Using your example, warlocks are not a dual-wielding melee class and night elves can't be warlocks. On top of that, all NPCs lines and quest texts that address you by your class would call you "warlock" instead of "demon hunter", further nullifying the fantasy.

It is the same as this Holy Trinity Bard basically being a Music themed Priest. Look at your concept, look at Unbelievable's concept. They're practically the same, pointing at gameplay that already exists in the Priest class and simply themed with music. The only difference is you're pointing at 2 DPS specs and 1 Heal instead of 2 Heal specs and 1 DPS; is this really what people want out of a Bard class?

Instead of *coming up* with ways to fit Bards into WoW, focus on what people *want* from the Bard class. What is the number one thing people want out of a Bard Class? It's to play as a Support Role. Not for the music theme, not for the use of Sound, not for a Music Class that fits in the Holy Trinity. People want to play as an archetypical RPG Bard that is heavily based on a Support Role.

WoW right now is simply not designed for support. Blizzard would need add a Support Role into the Holy Trinity in order for *a New Bard Class* to fit. There are no exceptions to this for a New Bard class, designed from the ground up. Anything less should simply apply its theme as a Class Skin or a Profession. There is no one who actually *wants* a Bard that simply plays like a Priest but with a musical theme; even if you guys are making arguments for it I doubt you actually understand what you actually *want* out of this class.

It's just as bad as the idea of a Gnome-and-Goblin only Tinker, it's just as bad as the idea of making Demon Hunters a Warlock Spec. The idea of making this happen actually HURTS the class concept and makes it LESS marketable. Just because someone is completely happy with a bad idea does not make that idea good.

[Teriz]

Like I said earlier, there are certain classes that would FAIL a Modern Design approach, and I believe Monk would be one of them. It's commonly the least-played class in the game. The addition of B-tier classes like a Bard or Goblin/Gnome-only Tinker would only end up taking that position as least-played class.

Actually according to this, the least played class is Demon Hunter;

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ters-by-class/

And according to this, the least played class is Shaman;



As for the Tinker, if Blizzard institutes it properly (mech-based in all specs, ranged DPS, healing spec, travel forms, etc.), there's no way it would be least played class, regardless of race restrictions.

[Triceron]

Actually according to this, the least played class is Demon Hunter;

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ters-by-class/

2019 stats? Thats pretty old data.

And according to this, the least played class is Shaman;

Yes, these are more recent 2020 stats and DH is well beyond least-played class in the game. Monk is edged up right against Shamans as the least played.

Also, generally these data stats are not indicative of max level/mains or tallying all classes at all levels.

DH would be lower at all levels because it's a Hero class, whereas many players would have alts left at whatever level. I'm not a Monk player and I even have a Monk in around level 40's (Prior to level crunch) and never touched it since. I don't feel compelled to delete it or anything either, I just have zero interest in playing the class.

And it has nothing to do with the theme of Monks; I main a Monk in Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 1. The archetype is best when applied to more fast-paced action and comboing abilities. Monk DPS in WoW isn't thrilling; the pace of combat overall is too slow and it's the same auto-attack, generator/spender combat system that every other Melee class uses. Monks lack the satisfying burst/combo system that Rogues and Feral have.

[Teriz]

Yes, these are more recent 2020 stats and DH is well beyond least-played class in the game.

Fair enough. However, that chart makes it fair to say that class population tends to be generated by corresponding lore with available races. For example, the most popular classes among the Night Elves are Demon Hunters, Druids, and Hunters. Corresponding with popular Night Elf characters like Illidan, Tyrande, and Malfurion, along with the general thematic of Night Elves being tied to archery and nature.

Blood Elves are in a similar position. They have prominent DH, Paladin, Hunter (Ranger), and Mage characters. Further their faction leader is a Warrior. So it's no surprise that the most popular classes in that race are those classes.

Humans? Yeah, they speak for themselves.

Look at Goblins, Mechagnomes, and Gnomes though.... It's pretty much white across the spectrum.

It would be interesting to see the population growth if you place a class that fits their racial themes.

[Triceron]

Fair enough. However, that chart makes it fair to say that class population tends to be generated by corresponding lore with available races.

Nope. I pointed this out back then and you can see on that chart that Blood Elf Monk is picked much more than Pandaren Monk. You can't tell me that Blood Elf Monk corresponds to lore more than Pandarens.

Pandaren are one of the least picked races for Monk overall. Even Human and Void Elf is picked more as a Monk. So no, it's not just about corresponding lore; race popularity seems to have a massive influence as well.

Also look at DK. Blood Elf tops the list. The more lore-savvy combination would be Forsaken DK.

You can just look at the total race picked Bars on the right side and you'd know how skewed this system is in favour of Popular Races over any other statistic you could apply it to. The popularity of Elves and Humans is practically untouchable by any other race; hell races combined.

I'd like to see what an updated version of this graph would look like too, since they recently added a whole bunch of new customization options for races that would likely boost some race pick numbers. High Elf options for Void Elf are a HUGE addition.


Also, I believe that graph indicates percentage of Races playing X Class. That means anything with 1 Race choice will have full color on it whereas a class with many race options would be spread much lighter. So yeah, a Goblin/Gnome only Tinker would be full blue/red on that graph because that's all the races would be available for it; but the overall number of Tinker players would probably never reach the Monk/Shaman numbers because of the limited Race options as well.

[Teriz]

Nope. I pointed this out back then and you can see on that chart that Blood Elf Monk is picked much more than Pandaren Monk. You can't tell me that Blood Elf Monk corresponds to lore more than Pandarens.

Pandaren are one of the least picked races for Monk overall. Even Human and Void Elf is picked more as a Monk. So no, it's not just about corresponding lore; race popularity seems to have a massive influence as well.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200812...php?class=Monk

This is from August 2020, and the Pandaren are clearly the most picked Monk race.

- - - Updated - - -

Also look at DK. Blood Elf tops the list. The more lore-savvy combination would be Forsaken DK.

You are correct about Blood Elf DKs;

https://web.archive.org/web/20200812...Death%20Knight

However, that can be explained by the fact that there is a major Blood Elf DK character, and zero Forsaken Death Knight characters;

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Koltira_Deathweaver

However, I will admit that it doesn't explain the domination of Blood Elf DKs over Human DKs.

[Triceron]

https://web.archive.org/web/20200812...php?class=Monk

This is from August 2020, and the Pandaren are clearly the most picked Monk race.

Yes, if you are 1: Adding both Horde and Alliance Pandarens and 2: considering the Level 20-120 range of those stats.

If you were able to change the stats to Max Level, the Pandaren numbers for monk drops significantly. It shows that most people who play Pandaren Monks don't actually take them to max level; it seems that those numbers are boosted by people who just wanted to try the class combo out and left the alt idling for the rest of time. I'll admit - I'm one of these people.

[Teriz]

Yes, if you are 1: Adding both Horde and Alliance Pandarens and 2: considering the Level 20-120 range of those stats.

If you were able to change the stats to Max Level, the Pandaren numbers for monk drops significantly. It shows that most people who play Pandaren Monks don't actually take them to max level; it seems that those numbers are boosted by people who just wanted to try the class combo out and left the alt idling for the rest of time. I'll admit - I'm one of these people.

So let's say Blizzard instituted a Goblin/Gnome only Tinker class that implemented mechs;



+Offered a new physical ranged DPS spec
+Offered a healing spec that used science instead of magic
+Offered unique travel forms similar to the Druid class (i.e. your mech transforms into flight mode or sea mode)
+Offered mech gameplay where the Gnome/Goblin can remain in mech mode permanently

You really think they would be the least played class in the game? Considering that the mech removes pretty much all aesthetic issues people have with Goblins and Gnomes, I don't see how that would be the case.

[Triceron]

You really think they would be the least played class in the game? Considering that the mech removes pretty much all aesthetic issues people have with Goblins and Gnomes, I don't see how that would be the case.

Yes.

Look at Shamans. They lack the Human and Elf option, and suffer greatly in statistics for it.

Shamans aren't low popularity because it's a bad class identity, and certainly not because the gameplay is lacking. It's just low because there are no Human and Elf options available. We see this exactly for Paladin, which was fairly niche-pick (not low, just niche) in Vanilla but *skyrocketted* in TBC with the addition of Blood Elf.

If for any reason one day Blizzard allows Shamans to be Elves and Humans, I would say the numbers would be much more equalized.

Monk simply has no excuse; it was a poor class design from the very start. Hurt by too many factors, and really has never reached its full potential.


And let's be very frank here - do we think Demon Hunter is picked so high because its gameplay is so unique, diverse and compelling? Because it's offering unique gameplay that no other class has? Hahahahaha! It's just because they LOOK cool and they make existing Popular Race picks look EVEN COOLER. It is popular because it GIVES players what they want.

Unfortunately for Goblin and Gnome only Tinker, it's too similar to the Pandaren Monk situation; even less so considering you're asking to not even allow them to be Humans and Elves. It's Monk situation with even lower standards.

[Ielenia]

Monk is the _reason_ why I am considering popularity to be a factor at all.

I consider the class a failed experiment. It was designed with no auto-attacks, originally designed to be a 'Combo Fighter' ala Street Fighter within WoW. The idea couldn't get past alpha stage and the concept was dropped, while the rest of Monk design was already fully featured, announced and too late to drop entirely.

There are certain classes that would FAIL a Modern Design approach, and I believe Monk would be one of them. It's commonly the least-played class in the game. The addition of B-tier classes like a No-Support Role Bard or Goblin/Gnome-only Tinker would only end up taking that position as least-played class. There's very little appeal behind these, and that's why we ended up seeing a fan-favoured pick like Demon Hunter take up the 12 spot as a Leather-wearing Dual Wield DPS (As if we really needed more?) instead of a completely new gameplay oriented class like a Tinker or a Bard.

The only alternative I see to this is if it were added as a Class Skin, because the new themed Class Skin contributes to boosting use of *existing classes* rather than simply inserting a new class that would need its own set of loot, its own gameplay balance, its own roles in a Raid, etc etc.

And the death knight was a class designed to be able to fill in a DPS role or a tank role with all of its three specs. Back in Wrath, blood was a good single-target tank, while frost was a beast for AoE tanking, being able to even out-threaten the paladin tank easily.

Also, as for the monk class being the least played class in the game, that's not exactly an indicative of "failed design". Remember that, until Shadowlands, the monk class was the only expansion class that would start at level one. DKs would start at fifty-five, and demon hunters at hundred and five.

So make them a Profession instead.

The bard concept does not fit a crafting profession. That's like saying being an athlete is a crafting profession. The bard doesn't craft anything.

It is the same as this Holy Trinity Bard basically being a Music themed Priest.

But it's not "basically a music-themed priest". That's like saying the warlock is a "demon-themed priest". Or that the paladin is a "holy-themed warrior". A bard class, if implemented into WoW, would not be "whatever-themed X class" any more than the present classes are to each other.

Instead of *coming up* with ways to fit Bards into WoW, focus on what people *want* from the Bard class. What is the number one thing people want out of a Bard Class? It's to play as a Support Role.

Source for that claim? Because, as far as I know, the majority of people that say "bard must be support" are those against the idea of the bard as a WoW class.

[Syegfryed]

Yes.

Look at Shamans. They lack the Human and Elf option, and suffer greatly in statistics for it.

Shamans aren't low popularity because it's a bad class identity, and certainly not because the gameplay is lacking. It's just low because there are no Human and Elf options available. We see this exactly for Paladin, which was fairly niche-pick (not low, just niche) in Vanilla but *skyrocketted* in TBC with the addition of Blood Elf.

If for any reason one day Blizzard allows Shamans to be Elves and Humans, I would say the numbers would be much more equalized.

Monk simply has no excuse; it was a poor class design from the very start. Hurt by too many factors, and really has never reached its full potential.

shamans are lacking because most of the time the class is dogshit/nerved to oblivion, and other classes can do it better, hell, they even lost bloodlust to fucking mages, it have nothing to do with not having elves and humans

DH in contrast, are popular because they are a 3 button class not rly because "it have elves"

[Teriz]

Yes.

Look at Shamans. They lack the Human and Elf option, and suffer greatly in statistics for it.

Shamans aren't low popularity because it's a bad class identity, and certainly not because the gameplay is lacking. It's just low because there are no Human and Elf options available. We see this exactly for Paladin, which was fairly niche-pick (not low, just niche) in Vanilla but *skyrocketted* in TBC with the addition of Blood Elf.

Okay, but look at Druids, they’re the most popular class in the game and they only have Night Elves. In every race where Druids are available, it’s the most popular class within that race by far. It beats out the Hunter and Mage classes which allow every race of elf in the game, and Humans. So clearly it isn’t just about the race, it’s about what the class is offering as well.

And let's be very frank here - do we think Demon Hunter is picked so high because its gameplay is so unique, diverse and compelling? Because it's offering unique gameplay that no other class has? Hahahahaha! It's just because they LOOK cool and they make existing Popular Race picks look EVEN COOLER. It is popular because it GIVES players what they want.

Unfortunately for Goblin and Gnome only Tinker, it's too similar to the Pandaren Monk situation; even less so considering you're asking to not even allow them to be Humans and Elves. It's Monk situation with even lower standards.

I will fully admit that the Demon Hunter is perhaps one of Blizzard’s best character designs. It’s simply hard to top a blind Night Elf warrior with a warglaive. Yes, the Demon Hunter oozes cool, and you simply can’t deny that.

However with that said, a class that utilizes vehicles/mechs for combat would be considered cool by a section of the user base as well. As cool as Demob Hunters? Of course not, but we’d be fooling ourselves if we didn’t acknowledge that there’s an audience for a class that pilots mechs and offers gameplay not offered by existing classes.

[Triceron]

And the death knight was a class designed to be able to fill in a DPS role or a tank role with all of its three specs. Back in Wrath, blood was a good single-target tank, while frost was a beast for AoE tanking, being able to even out-threaten the paladin tank easily.

Sure, and this was WoW circa 2010 when we were still using the old Talent Tree system. If we added a Bard anywhere during this time when Hybrids were still being designed to have a Support features, then I'm all for it. But DK was not introduced now, it was introduced 10 years ago.

Also, as for the monk class being the least played class in the game, that's not exactly an indicative of "failed design". Remember that, until Shadowlands, the monk class was the only expansion class that would start at level one. DKs would start at fifty-five, and demon hunters at hundred and five.

And are you suggesting Bard be a hero class then?

The bard concept does not fit a crafting profession. That's like saying being an athlete is a crafting profession. The bard doesn't craft anything.

They Compose songs and play them. Much like an Engineer makes things only Engineers can use, so would Bards compose Songs that only Bards could play.

[Unbelievable]

A cohesive class identity that properly represents a Bard class, which none of these disconnected ideas satisfy.

Consider that I could list out a dozen ways that Warlocks can become Demon Hunters through a 4th spec, and it would not properly represent a Demon Hunter. That is what I see for a Bard. The issue here is that the modern class design that WoW is based on doesn't lend itself to a Bard much more than simply being a 'Musical themed Priest'.

Everything here is Priest gameplay with a music theme. Why not make it a Class Skin instead, which would be a much more fitting idea based on the very concepts you've listed here

Weird... because a Paladin can also do all that, and is, also, using the Holy Light.

If one class has several explosives and another has very few and instead has mainly arrow abilities, it's clear what the focus of those classes are.



You can do a reverse google search and find out.



Yeah, a Draenei with a claw pack (or a mech) would be larger than a tauren. Also you can't use mounts in enclosed places. A Tinker would need to be able to use the claw pack or the mech in an enclosed space.



So what's the difference between a Bard blowing a horn and buffing someone, and a Death Knight blowing a horn (Horn of Winter) and buffing someone?



That's the general direction we're going with though, because that's really the only way the class makes sense.



Words are common Bard abilities in D&D. Here you have a class loaded with Word spells a Hymn, and a Scream. To top it off, Priests are a support class. What's the problem?

Since we don't have a Warcraft hero to base a Bard on, it's quite possible that they purposely placed Bard concepts into the Priest class.

Still not relevant to the power relations discussion we had. You're just trying to change the subject. The thing is the amount of explosives changes from time to time. In vanilla, it was non existent, and in Legion it was much more prominent. So, the amount of explosives we have now is not indicative. Especially, if it will have more influence from the Sapper.

I'd prefer if you link it here, instead.

But you can use elixir of giant growth, though. And, let's not forget that Goblins used to be based on the Dwarven skeleton (a race that is listed as a Tinker but, you keep forgetting about).

You assume the Bard will blow a horn in the first place. What's the difference between a Paladin using the light to heal someone, and a priest doing it? The thing is, there's nothing stopping the overlap of abilities, just like the Tinker, Hunter, and Engineering explosives. You just point it out when it's inconvenient to you but, disregard the amount of times it occurs in game.

That's the general direction you're going with. Nothing says the class concept will play out the way you envision it. According to the lore we have, that's not the direction.

The problem is the Bard does not use the Holy Light, like the Priest or Paladin. It's weird that despite your claim of using words (which, i'd like a source to), they haven't implemented it into, neither E.T.C, nor Lucio.

Good one. They placed Bard concepts into the Priest class? i don't remember seeing priests using instruments...

Basically, everything you don't like was just, magically, integrated to other classes, except the Tinker and Dragonsworn. How convenient...

It is the same as this Holy Trinity Bard basically being a Music themed Priest. Look at your concept, look at Unbelievable's concept. They're practically the same, pointing at gameplay that already exists in the Priest class and simply themed with music. The only difference is you're pointing at 2 DPS specs and 1 Heal instead of 2 Heal specs and 1 DPS; is this really what people want out of a Bard class?

That little list wasn't a concept. These, probably, are:
https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/E.T.C.
https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Lúcio

That gives you a DPS and a Healer.

And, what's wrong with Overlapping? The Frost Mage and Frost Death Knight do not use slowing frost magic? The Rogue and the Feral Druid do not use energy, combo points and bleeds? Warriors and Guardian Druids do not use Rage and defensive cooldowns? The Beastmaster Hunter and the Demonology Warlock do not heavily rely upon pets to do the fighting for them? The Fire Mage and the Destruction Warlock do not rely upon critical strike fire spells? The Holy Paladin and the Holy/Discipline Priest do not heal, shield and buff using the holy light? The Protection/Retribution Paladin isn't similar to a Protection/Arms Warrior?

So let's say Blizzard instituted a Goblin/Gnome only Tinker class that implemented mechs;



+Offered a new physical ranged DPS spec
+Offered a healing spec that used science instead of magic
+Offered unique travel forms similar to the Druid class (i.e. your mech transforms into flight mode or sea mode)
+Offered mech gameplay where the Gnome/Goblin can remain in mech mode permanently

You really think they would be the least played class in the game? Considering that the mech removes pretty much all aesthetic issues people have with Goblins and Gnomes, I don't see how that would be the case.

I don't think the mech will be permanent. I think it will be a cooldown, like Metamorphosis (due to its size and increase in power).

[Triceron]

Okay, but look at Druids, they’re the most popular class in the game and they only have Night Elves. In every race where Druids are available, it’s the most popular class within that race by far. It beats out the Hunter and Mage classes which allow every race of elf in the game, and Humans. So clearly it isn’t just about the race, it’s about what the class is offering as well.

Druid was also the only other Healer class aside from Priests.

The game back then was very different from the game now. Some classes were popular because of Lore or Race options, other because of necessity. Shamans were also not riding the bottom of the barrel throughout all of WoW. Their numbers dwindled in comparison to the addition of more classes that had Human and Elf options, and because of other classes that had more Race options opened to them in Cataclysm whereas the Shaman was generally stuck with 'B-tier' Race options throughout the history of WoW. Cata opened up Dwarf options; yay... BFA added in more Tauren, Draenei, Orc, Troll and Dwarf options... yay.... It never got opened up to *any* of the popular races.

Druid is also one of the original Vanilla classes, and built up a huge following along the way. If we're talking about Gnome and Goblin only Tinkers being added in Vanilla (say Classic Plus), I'd be ALL OVER that idea. But if we're talking about adding that to a Post Shadowlands WoW where everyone has laser-focused expectations on what a Class needs to be? No, I would not suggest it at all. It'd be a Diablo Immortal situation; a very good product being announced and marketted at the wrong place at the wrong time, only to be met with the ire of people already expecting a *better* full package concept.


I'm not talking about a Tinker class on the basis of it being a Tinker. I'm talking about any new Class having to fulfill the expectations of the fans.

Bards would *NEED* to be able to provide a compelling Support style of gameplay to meet Bard Class Archetype expectations.
Tinkers would *NEED* to have viable non-Goblin/Gnome options to equalize their niche and provide a Non-Whimsical choice.
Dragonsworn would *NEED* a Dragon Transformation ability and compelling Race/Spec options to substantiate their lack of Class Identity.

It's a matter of what is marketable in 2020+ more than anything now. We're not talking about Vanilla WoW where niches like Faction-only Classes and Support Roles would be absolutely viable.

[Sativ]

If history tells me anything it will be an Agility wearing Melee DPS

[Triceron]

Weird... because a Paladin can also do all that, and is, also, using the Holy Light.

Paladin would also likely fail to be added as a Modern Class in WoW. It's only reason for existence is based on legacy design terms. It's too late to remove any class that's already in the game to fit in more niches.

It's completely designed today to be a compelling Hybrid class, whereas in Vanilla it was absolutely added as a Support class for raids. That design wouldn't exist today. ALso, Paladin has a direct relation to WoW's pantheon and class identity; they existed since Warcraft 2 and I fully support the addition of Paladins in WoW (in Vanilla). Bard however has zero identity in WoW, and needs to be built from the ground up. It's not even a playable class in the Pen and Paper RPG; consider this.

That little list wasn't a concept. These, probably, are:
https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/E.T.C.
https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Lúcio

ETC is a Warrior with musical theme.
Lucio is a DJ on Skates, which has nothing to do with Bards.

Neither of these are Bard concepts.

Is anyone who wants an actual Bard class asking for ETC and Lucio gameplay in WoW? I'm even going as far as calling it out as being completely dishonest to the concept of a Bard class.

- - - Updated - - -

DH in contrast, are popular because they are a 3 button class not rly because "it have elves"

So do we suggest that future classes follow this example? That we should have a Tinker or Bard that's a 3-button class instead?

I don't think that's a good idea either.

[Teriz]

I don't think the mech will be permanent. I think it will be a cooldown, like Metamorphosis (due to its size and increase in power).

It was permanent in WC3, and in early HotS it was permanent as well. Further the NPCs piloting mechs also have it as a permanent form as well.

In short, all signs point to Mech form (robo-Goblin/Gnome) to be permanent.

- - - Updated - - -

Druid was also the only other Healer class aside from Priests.

The game back then was very different from the game now. Some classes were popular because of Lore or Race options, other because of necessity. Shamans were also not riding the bottom of the barrel throughout all of WoW. Their numbers dwindled in comparison to the addition of more classes that had Human and Elf options, and because of other classes that had more Race options opened to them in Cataclysm whereas the Shaman was generally stuck with 'B-tier' Race options throughout the history of WoW. Cata opened up Dwarf options; yay... BFA added in more Tauren, Draenei, Orc, Troll and Dwarf options... yay.... It never got opened up to *any* of the popular races.

Actually Shaman and Paladin could heal in vanilla as well. They were also more viable because they could rez and Druid's only rez had a 30 minute cool down.

Beyond all of that, we're talking about an ongoing situation, and the Druid class has ALWAYS been a popular WoW class despite not having human or Blood Elf options. In fact, the Druid class actually has the WORST racial options of any class, and it's the most popular class in the game.

And as a Shaman player since late vanilla, yes they were always bottom of the barrel population wise. Mainly because they were never a strong class balance wise, not because lack of race options.

Druid is also one of the original Vanilla classes, and built up a huge following along the way. If we're talking about Gnome and Goblin only Tinkers being added in Vanilla (say Classic Plus), I'd be ALL OVER that idea. But if we're talking about adding that to a Post Shadowlands WoW where everyone has laser-focused expectations on what a Class needs to be? No, I would not suggest it at all. It'd be a Diablo Immortal situation; a very good product being announced and marketted at the wrong place at the wrong time, only to be met with the ire of people already expecting a *better* full package concept.


I'm not talking about a Tinker class on the basis of it being a Tinker. I'm talking about any new Class having to fulfill the expectations of the fans.

Bards would *NEED* to be able to provide a compelling Support style of gameplay to meet Bard Class Archetype expectations.
Tinkers would *NEED* to have viable non-Goblin/Gnome options to equalize their niche and provide a Non-Whimsical choice.
Dragonsworn would *NEED* a Dragon Transformation ability and compelling Race/Spec options to substantiate their lack of Class Identity.

It's a matter of what is marketable in 2020+ more than anything now. We're not talking about Vanilla WoW where niches like Faction-only Classes and Support Roles would be absolutely viable.

LoL! What does this even mean? The expectations of fans revolves completely around the new class being mail-based, offering a ranged DPS, and offering gameplay that can't be offered by existing classes. When it comes to the Tinker, the main expectation is that it follow the technology thematic. I have yet to see anyone expecting the new class to offer Elf and Human options. In fact, outside of a few discussions on here, no one talks about race options at all. The only thing they don't want is another melee DPS class that steals abilities from existing classes. I've also seen some trepidation about the next class being another "shadow-based" class.

Again, see the Druid situation; Worst race options around, still the most popular class in WoW.

- - - Updated - - -

shamans are lacking because most of the time the class is dogshit/nerved to oblivion, and other classes can do it better, hell, they even lost bloodlust to fucking mages, it have nothing to do with not having elves and humans

DH in contrast, are popular because they are a 3 button class not rly because "it have elves"

To be fair, Demon Hunters are an awesome class aesthetic wise;



It's the perfect mix of Elves and shadow/demonic themes wrapped up in a single package. So yeah, their popularity has never surprised me.

Gameplay wise, I find the class rather lacking. It reminds me a LOT of the Rogue class (which I'm also not a fan of), lacking the pyrokinetics of Enhancement Shaman, and that REALLY surprised me when I first played it. For the entirety of both Legion and BFA, DHs were extremely OP, and that obviously helped their population numbers (another reason Monks never took off btw). However, they've been brought in line in Shadowlands, so we'll see how their population handles it.