If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Syegfryed]

So do we suggest that future classes follow this example? That we should have a Tinker or Bard that's a 3-button class instead?

I don't think that's a good idea either.

neither do i, but its easy and overpowered, its a non brainer class, anyone can pick DH and wreck everything, shaman in other hand are weak, pathetic, not always fun to play, hard and not unique.

not just that, tDH have exclusive class customizations, only druids have something similar with the druid forms, but DH got horns, tattoos, spikes and things like that, they got exclusive and fucking useful mechanics like seeing invisibility, double jump and glide, they are blizzard favorite child with so many cool tricks and easy to play, you can't win against that.

The next classes would end up in the same line of work, because is whatpeople like, they do just 2 specs, cause its easy to create and balance, make it overpowered and non-brainer and pump with useful stuff/tricks.

Thats why i think dragonsworm is a good candidate, give races draconic features, like demon hunter have demon features, glide with dragon wings, and hell, you could even assume a flying stance like you are mounting

Same with tinkers, your mecha can fly like a mount, you could customize it and customize your weapons/claws, like putting paint, logos, patterns, you could get some engineering stuff in the class to get useful tricks.

I just don't see bard being a thing with at least 3 better and more established options(necromancer/tinker/dragon class)

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To be fair, Demon Hunters are an awesome class aesthetic wise;.

they are the edgiest of the edgy, of course they will be popular because of that, but any race would look "edgy-dope" in those skins, its not rly an elf thing, thats why im saying "having elves" isn't rly the reason why they are heavily playable, just like putting elves to shamans would not make much difference.

Yeah the gameplay is lacking and they are OP

in short, easy, strong and edgy, its the 3 points of a playable class to be popular, if you get at least 2 you are good.

[Teriz]

neither do i, but its easy and overpowered, its a non brainer class, anyone can pick DH and wreck everything, shaman in other hand are weak, pathetic, not always fun to play, hard and not unique.

not just that, tDH have exclusive class customizations, only druids have something similar with the druid forms, but DH got horns, tattoos, spikes and things like that, they got exclusive and fucking useful mechanics like seeing invisibility, double jump and glide, they are blizzard favorite child with so many cool tricks and easy to play, you can't win against that.

The next classes would end up in the same line of work, because is whatpeople like, they do just 2 specs, cause its easy to create and balance, make it overpowered and non-brainer and pump with useful stuff/tricks.

Thats why i think dragonsworm is a good candidate, give races draconic features, like demon hunter have demon features, glide with dragon wings, and hell, you could even assume a flying stance like you are mounting

Same with tinkers, your mecha can fly like a mount, you could customize it and customize your weapons/claws, like putting paint, logos, patterns, you could get some engineering stuff in the class to get useful tricks.

I just don't see bard being a thing with at least 3 better and more established options(necromancer/tinker/dragon class)

You may have a point there. The most popular classes in the game do tend to have a lot of unique features other classes don't offer.

they are the edgiest of the edgy, of course they will be popular because of that, but any race would look "edgy-dope" in those skins, its not rly an elf thing, thats why im saying "having elves" isn't rly the reason why they are heavily playable, just like putting elves to shamans would not make much difference.

Yeah the gameplay is lacking and they are OP

in short, easy, strong and edgy, its the 3 points of a playable class to be popular, if you get at least 2 you are good.

That's true.

[Triceron]

Actually Shaman and Paladin could heal in vanilla as well. They were also more viable because they could rez and Druid's only rez had a 30 minute cool down.

True, but not a reason to be picked as a class. Ressing out of combat was just a job, not a major feature to pick any class. Most people gravitated to what they felt was cool or iconic at the time. Many casual players pick a race that they felt comfortable with first, and picking a class that went with said race, or vice versa. It's why options like Gnomes are so low on the board; they're usually not people's first picks for any given class and not anyone's first pick as a race in general.

Again, see the Druid situation; Worst race options around, still the most popular class in WoW.

Nope, not worst Race options. That would be the Shaman right now. Druid has Night Elf, the 3rd most popular race in the game which is what is boosting the Druid class numbers so high. Look at the number break downs of each class and by race. The Night Elf race being available is what is propping Druid class high. Shamans can't say the same, they don't have any outstanding races propping their numbers up in comparison; Druids Shamans and Paladins would probably all be around the same numbers if players didn't have a bias towards certain Racial picks. I mean, we could even go as far as saying Horde and Alliance races would be fairly balanced if it weren't for an obvious bias for most casual players picking easy-to-look-at Human and Night Elf options. Reality shows that it's a fact that Elf and Human options are picked more overall across the board, and that makes Druid and Paladin more popular as a result.

That's why a Goblin/Gnome only class would be a bad idea. I'm not even talking about a Tinker here, I'm literally outlining why any Gnome/Goblin only class would be bad; be it a true Battle Medic class or Bombadier class or even Steam Knight class. It's just an overall bad idea.

However with that said, a class that utilizes vehicles/mechs for combat would be considered cool by a section of the user base as well. As cool as Demob Hunters? Of course not, but we’d be fooling ourselves if we didn’t acknowledge that there’s an audience for a class that pilots mechs and offers gameplay not offered by existing classes.

Just addressing this earlier note. I think the video FossilFree posted below shows that it could be really cool. But at the same time.... we already have that in the video below and I don't see the concept being that much 'cooler' than what we already have seen. Sure, now you can have it permanent as a class - but is this really the mechanic people are craving for at the sake of playing Gnomes and Goblins only? I'd be pretty miffed knowing that you could be any race and play in a mech in Legion but now that Blizzard makes a class they only limit to races most people wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole.

[FossilFree]

The cool thing for tinker fans is that they don't have to wait to enjoy their fantasy, they can do it right at this moment:



https://www.wowhead.com/item=132531/...ed-combat-mode

[Triceron]

Thats why i think dragonsworm is a good candidate, give races draconic features, like demon hunter have demon features, glide with dragon wings, and hell, you could even assume a flying stance like you are mounting

Same with tinkers, your mecha can fly like a mount, you could customize it and customize your weapons/claws, like putting paint, logos, patterns, you could get some engineering stuff in the class to get useful tricks.

I just don't see bard being a thing with at least 3 better and more established options(necromancer/tinker/dragon class)

Id fully agree with this. This is why I am not using the same Bard arguments against Tinker or Dragonsworn; even if these concepts are not completely solid within WoW they have far more potential as a featured class than any Bard would. It's easy to imagine how it could be designed with mass-market appeal. Bard, not much so, because all of its hooks are tied to gameplay concepts that don't exist in WoW.

And the alternative of making X new class completely easy to play and completely overpowered is only a fad. It rarely lasts the test of time.

[Teriz]

The cool thing for tinker fans is that they don't have to wait to enjoy their fantasy, they can do it right at this moment:



https://www.wowhead.com/item=132531/...ed-combat-mode

My fantasy is to be Goblin Tinker leading a raid (or even a dungeon) as a tank inside my mech. A lesser fantasy would be for me to quest through Stormsong Valley and/or Drustvar inside my mech, dusting off witches, old god worshippers, and other creeps with my Tinker weaponry.

Reeves doesn't fulfill either fantasy in any sense whatsoever. It's also a nightmare to build to the point where it isn't worth your time.

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True, but not a reason to be picked as a class. Ressing out of combat was just a job, not a major feature to pick any class. Most people gravitated to what they felt was cool or iconic at the time. Many casual players pick a race that they felt comfortable with first, and picking a class that went with said race, or vice versa. It's why options like Gnomes are so low on the board; they're usually not people's first picks for any given class and not anyone's first pick as a race in general.

In vanilla if you were entering a dungeon and needed a healer, a Druid was frankly a subpar option. If you died in a fight, the Druid couldn't rez you, so you had to run back to your corpse for respawn. In dungeons like Blackrock Depths or Dire Maul, that was an absolute nightmare. So yeah, I'm not seeing how you could argue that Druids were picked because they were a healing class.

No, the reason Druids got picked is because they offered a pretty wide variety of play styles. If you were an altoholic, you could play pretty much every class style under one hood.

Nope, not worst Race options. That would be the Shaman right now. Druid has Night Elf, the 3rd most popular race in the game which is what is boosting the Druid class numbers so high. Look at the number break downs of each class and by race. The Night Elf race being available is what is propping Druid class high. Shamans can't say the same, they don't have any outstanding races propping their numbers up in comparison; Druids Shamans and Paladins would probably all be around the same numbers if racial options were treated equally across the board. It's the fact that Elf and Human options are picked more overall across the board that makes Druid and Paladin picked so much more often.

Regardless of racial popularity, here is racial options between the two (not including allied races);

Druids: Night Elf, Tauren, Troll, Worgen
Shaman: Orc, Tauren, Troll, Goblin, Pandaren, Draenei, Dwarf

You're vastly overstating Night Elf appeal if you think just because you can roll an elf the Druid racial options are better.

Also Paladins and Druids are picked more because they can do all of the Class roles, and are consistently good at PvP. Shaman cannot and haven't been.

Just addressing this earlier note. I think the video FossilFree posted below shows that it could be really cool. But at the same time.... we already have that in the video below and I don't see the concept being that much 'cooler' than what we already have seen. Sure, now you can have it permanent as a class - but is this really the mechanic people are craving for at the sake of playing Gnomes and Goblins only? I'd be pretty miffed knowing that you could be any race and play in a mech in Legion but now that Blizzard makes a class they only limit to races most people wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole.

Well the concept would be far "cooler" by allowing you to use a make in ALL of the game's content, not just one area of Broken Isles. It would also be more cool by not forcing you to look through some sort of view screen. It would also be a lot more cool if it allowed you to use it in dungeons and instances. It would also be far more cool if it let you loot the items from the enemies you killed. And finally it would be a lot more cool if you didn't have to go through a personal hell to get the mats to build it.

I think the fact that so many people went through that nightmare to actually get the mats to build Reeves CU shows just how much people would love a mech-based class.

[Triceron]

In vanilla if you were entering a dungeon and needed a healer, a Druid was frankly a subpar option. If you died in a fight, the Druid couldn't rez you, so you had to run back to your corpse for respawn. In dungeons like Blackrock Depths or Dire Maul, that was an absolute nightmare. So yeah, I'm not seeing how you could argue that Druids were picked because they were a healing class.

No one picked classes to do raids and dungeons back in 2004. It was all about playing a class you liked and questing with it. You're applying modern standards and modern expectations to a game that revolutionized what people regarded Warcraft and MMORPGs as. No one knew that Orcs and Trolls would be considered low-picked races compared to Humans and Night Elves; much of this had to do with the huge influx of female players that never really existed in any Warcraft game before. That was also a huge factor in people picking Druids.

Most girls I knew who played WoW back in 2004-7 played as Healer classes, whether they could heal or not. A casual-WoW playing coworker played as a female Tauren Druid; Druid because it was a Healer and Tauren because it was the only option on Horde which her BF at the time played as. That was the circumstance for a lot of players back then.

No, the reason Druids got picked is because they offered a pretty wide variety of play styles.

Sure, you could say this, but it only shows why a Druid would be more popular than say a Pure class like Warlocks and Rogues. All hybrids offer a wide variety of play, but they all have varying levels of popularity and play.

You're vastly overstating Night Elf appeal if you think just because you can roll an elf the Druid racial options are better.

There is also the fact that of all classes, the top played for Worgen and Tauren are Druid. That all contributes to Druid popularity above all else.

I wouldn't attribute this to Corresponding Lore considering there are almost no major Worgen or Tauren Druid characters in the game. Hamuul is still fairly B-tier, and major characters like Baine, Genn and Tessa have done little to popularize the Warrior or Rogue class options for these races. Curious, isn't it?

Also Paladins and Druids are picked more because they can do all of the Class roles, and are consistently good at PvP. Shaman cannot and haven't been.

https://wowleaderboards.net/statistics/popular/specs

All Tank specs are least picked for any Tank class. Trying to promote tanking is what Blizzard has been trying to do by giving the option; 3 Tanking specs on DK, Tanking on Monk, Tanking on DH; and each time Tanking is still the lest played role in the game.

Tanking wouldn't help the Shaman; most players don't even want to choose to tank when given the option. Also, it doesn't explain why Pure classes like Mages Warlocks and Rogues are more popular than Shaman.

[Ielenia]

Sure, and this was WoW circa 2010 when we were still using the old Talent Tree system. If we added a Bard anywhere during this time when Hybrids were still being designed to have a Support features, then I'm all for it. But DK was not introduced now, it was introduced 10 years ago.

You are moving the goalposts, here. You called the monk a "failed design" because it went through massive changes. I simply pointed out that a famous class today, the death knight, also went through such big changes.

And are you suggesting Bard be a hero class then?

... Are you trying to misrepresent what I wrote? Not even the most charitable interpretation of what I wrote even comes close to what you're asking. I simply pointed out that one possible reason for the monk's low representation is the fact that it is the only expansion class added into the game that started at level one, while the other two expansion classes started at a later level.

On top of that, those other expansion classes, death knight and demon hunters, had exclusive starting experiences, while the monk did not. Those two classes also came with unique mounts, too.

They Compose songs and play them. Much like an Engineer makes things only Engineers can use, so would Bards compose Songs that only Bards could play.

Just like paladins could just write in blessings into magical scroll and use them, so paladins should be a profession? Warlocks could write in summoning spells into magical scroll and use them, therefore warlocks should be a profession?

[Teriz]

No one picked classes to do raids and dungeons back in 2004. It was all about playing a class you liked and questing with it. You're applying modern standards and modern expectations to a game that revolutionized what people regarded Warcraft and MMORPGs as. No one knew that Orcs and Trolls would be considered low-picked races compared to Humans and Night Elves; much of this had to do with the huge influx of female players that never really existed in any Warcraft game before. That was also a huge factor in people picking Druids.

Most girls I knew who played WoW back in 2004-7 played as Healer classes, whether they could heal or not. A casual-WoW playing coworker played as a female Tauren Druid; Druid because it was a Healer and Tauren because it was the only option on Horde which her BF at the time played as. That was the circumstance for a lot of players back then.

Uh, we did dungeons back in 2004-2005. When we did dungeons you looked for healers outside of Druids because they couldn't rez as good as other healing specs.

I don't know why you're attempting to deflect from that main point that YOU initially brought up.

Sure, you could say this, but it only shows why a Druid would be more popular than say a Pure class like Warlocks and Rogues. All hybrids offer a wide variety of play, but they all have varying levels of popularity and play.

Monks are hybrids, but they're not nearly as popular. Probably because unlike Druids, Paladins, and Hunters they don't have very many racial perks or customizable options. Hunters can choose from a huge variety of pet types, Paladins have unique mounts for each race, and Druids have unique forms. Monks are fairly generic overall.

Another issue with Monks now is that they've removed the ability to attack with equipped weapons. So you can get this big beautiful staff as a Brewmaster, but your only attacks are punches and kicks. So yeah, expect the Monk class to sink even further over the course of Shadowlands.

There is also the fact that of all classes, the top played for Worgen and Tauren are Druid. That all contributes to Druid popularity above all else.

And the Druid is the most popular class in every race that is allowed to be one. So again, the question is how and why is the Druid the most popular class in every race it is available in? No other class has accomplished this feat, so clearly there's something about the Druid class that makes it so appealing, and its not the fact that it has a Night elf option.

https://wowleaderboards.net/statistics/popular/specs

All Tank specs are least picked for any Tank class. Trying to promote tanking is what Blizzard has been trying to do by giving the option; 3 Tanking specs on DK, Tanking on Monk, Tanking on DH; and each time Tanking is still the lest played role in the game.

Tanking wouldn't help the Shaman; most players don't even want to choose to tank when given the option. Also, it doesn't explain why Pure classes like Mages Warlocks and Rogues are more popular than Shaman. There are also vastly more PVE players than PVP, and those numbers wouldn't contribute to why Mages and Rogues are higher picks on PVE, especially if we consider that Rogues aren't usually considered 'Top DPS' classes.

Rogues, Warlocks, and Mages are more popular than Shaman because of PvP and Shaman's history of being mediocre to bad via DPS. Again, Shaman have traditionally been awful at PvP and I have yet to see any expansion where Shaman dominate DPS meters. Paladins on the other hand have traditionally been good at PvP, and can play any class role which make them ideal pickups for people seeking to raid.

[Triceron]

You are moving the goalposts, here. You called the monk a "failed design" because it went through massive changes. I simply pointed out that a famous class today, the death knight, also went through such big changes.

Yet you're not talking about the Monk. You're talking about the DK. You can't say that I'm moving the goal posts if you're talking about gameplay changes of another class that is affected by completely different factors. The DK's design changes did not affect the popularity of marketability of the class, it retained all of the flavour and fantasy of playing as a Death Knight. The whole package of a DK, the presentation, the starting zones, the customization options, the Hero class title, all contribute to being Marketable features for the DK.

The Monk however was supposed to feature 100% Resource-spender combat and no Auto Attacks. That is a BIG part of Monk gameplay fantasy; being an action-oriented combo-based class. Like I said, I main Monks in Diablo 3 and Guild Wars, and WoW's Monk is nothing like this at all. I didn't say it was a broken class, I said it was a failed design in terms of what it intended to aspire to and become. It doesn't have the appeal that a Monk class *SHOULD* have.

We need to acknowledge factors that drive class popularity. Race options are a big contributing factor. People also pick classes because of the fantasy, features and hooks. What Roles a class can be and how difficult the class is to pick up and learn are also big contributing factors.

These are some things that makes DK and DH vastly superior in concept to a Monk. This is why a relatively unknown concept like Dragonsworn would be much more awe-aspiring than a Bard. It's about a particular fantasy to play as, and for the Bard WoW simply doesn't support the Role that it's expected to fulfill. A Bard has no existing identity in WoW; no Races to represent them and no gameplay to identify with. Bards are known for a Support role, and WoW isn't built to support that kind of gameplay. The only known Bards in WoW are ETC and the April Fools Bard concept. These are not things that are very appealing to the WoW audience at large.

The best alternative is a Class Skin, which fully supports Bards, Necromancers, Dark Rangers and more.

[Teriz]

The DK is still mostly the same despite all the changes they went through. They fulfill the fantasy very well. Same can't be said of the Monk class now.

I can agree with this. DK design has really reinforced the Necromancer feel of the class.

On the other hand, Monk changes have been pretty bad. You can no longer use equipped weapons in attacks. Brewmasters and Mistweavers no long use Chi. They took out brewing (except for a WW PvP talent), among other things.

The Monk class has really lost a lot of its swagger since MoP.

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People don't pick classes because of their gameplay; that's not my point. People pick classes because of the fantasy, features and hooks. This is what makes DK and DH vastly superior in concept to a Monk. This is why a relatively unknown concept like Dragonsworn would be much more awe-aspiring than a Bard. It's about a particular fantasy to play as, and for the Bard WoW simply doesn't support the Role that it's expected to fulfill.

The only reason people bring up the Bard is because its something different. It honestly isn't a viable class concept in WoW. Consider there's not even a Bard class in the old WoW tabletop RPGs, and they had every imaginable class concept in those books.

[Triceron]

Uh, we did dungeons back in 2004-2005. When we did dungeons you looked for healers outside of Druids because they couldn't rez as good as other healing specs.

Sure, that was your experience of the game. I'd say that's fair since I never healed a Dungeon and played as feral for 90% of my leveling, like most any Druid would. The other specs weren't very good for any leveling content.

I will say that the ressing wasn't a problem back then. People were absolutely used to running back after death in any dungeon runs; full party wipes happened all the time. We didn't have the conveniences of having Guild Perk mass ressurections available back then to bitch about corpse running; it was just another part of the game. Even corpse running was incentivized since you aren't all wasting the Priest's time and mana, forcing them to drink between Resses and before the next fight. You'd actually get yelled at for being lazy and not running back.

Monks are hybrids, but they're not nearly as popular. Probably because unlike Druids, Paladins, and Hunters they don't have very many racial perks or customizable options. Hunters can choose from a huge variety of pet types, Paladins have unique mounts for each race, and Druids have unique forms. Monks are fairly generic overall.

Monks are IMO a failed design. If they were able to achieve the Combat system they originally had in mind, I think it would be much more popular. We're far from having any gimmicks popularize these classes as they are now, I think it's too late for that.

Another issue with Monks now is that they've removed the ability to attack with equipped weapons. So you can get this big beautiful staff as a Brewmaster, but your only attacks are punches and kicks. So yeah, expect the Monk class to sink even further over the course of Shadowlands.

Again, failed design. I'm surprised people still play Monks at all, really.

And the Druid is the most popular class in every race that is allowed to be one. So again, the question is how and why is the Druid the most popular class in every race it is available in? No other class has accomplished this feat, so clearly there's something about the Druid class that makes it so appealing, and its not the fact that it has a Night elf option.

Would you still consider it because of 'Corresponding lore'? To be honest though, if you look at the numbers the truth is pretty simple. Night Elf Druid is still much higher in numbers than Worgen and Tauren; despite this being the top class those races played. Fact is, Night Elf population is higher than both Worgen and Tauren combined.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/races/druid

Using these end-game statistics, we can see the breakdown of max-level race picks.

Night Elf comprises 36% of Druids. Worgen is 6%, Tauren is 13%.

36% of Druids are Night Elf. That is more than a 1/3rd.

Rogues, Warlocks, and Mages are more popular than Shaman because of PvP

Not true. Statistics don't seem to support this argument at all.

[jellmoo]

Just a quick thought on Bards:

I'm by no means advocating the Bard as being the best class addition, but I do think there is room, mechanically, for a non-support oriented Bard. Examples do exist in other games. The current Bard in 5th edition D$D can absolutely be played in a number of ways that aren't support in focus. The Minstrel from LotRO is a primary healer and damage dealer.

Again, not saying that a Bard as a new class is the way to go, just that I don't think that support not being a role in WoW is a hard stop. There are examples of Bards being able to do other roles, with support only being a side piece of the kit.

[Teriz]

Sure, that was your experience of the game. I'd say that's fair since I never healed a Dungeon and played as feral for 90% of my leveling, like most any Druid would. The other specs weren't very good for any leveling content.

I will say that the ressing wasn't a problem back then. People were absolutely used to running back after death in any dungeon runs; full party wipes happened all the time. We didn't have the conveniences of having Guild Perk mass ressurections available back then to bitch about corpse running; it was just another part of the game. Even corpse running was incentivized since you aren't all wasting the Priest's time and mana, forcing them to drink between Resses and before the next fight. You'd actually get yelled at for being lazy and not running back.

Well you didn't even have to wipe. Let's say you fought a boss in Dire maul and two people died. If you had a Priest or Shaman in the group, they could just res both of those people and we could continue the dungeon. If you had a druid, the Druid could res one person and then have to wait 30 minutes to raise the next person, so the group is stuck waiting until the other person runs back to the instance, and then runs back through the entire dungeon to meet back up with the group. Sometimes that person would go the wrong way and wind up aggroing a pack of mobs the group initially missed, and end up getting killed again. So now the group has to wait even longer.

So yeah, it was a problem back then. It was a massive inconvenience, and if you're doing dungeon runs you really didn't want a healer you wanted someone else.

Monks are IMO a failed design. If they were able to achieve the Combat system they originally had in mind, I think it would be much more popular. We're far from having any gimmicks popularize these classes as they are now, I think it's too late for that.

Well the combat system they had in MoP and WoD was actually solid. I don't know what prompted them to drop Jab. Jab allowed you to attack with your equipped weapon, and it really added a lot to the Monk mystique. Then suddenly in Legion they dropped Jab, made Windwalker fist only, and gave Brewmaster Blackout Strike, which only allowed them to attack with staffs. Now in Shadowlands they removed Blackout Strike and you can only attack with fists and kicks as a Brewmaster, pretty much undercutting the entire lore behind the Brewmaster in the first place.

Would you still consider it because of 'Corresponding lore'? To be honest though, if you look at the numbers the truth is pretty simple. Night Elf Druid is still much higher in numbers than Worgen and Tauren; despite this being the top class those races played. Fact is, Night Elf population is higher than both Worgen and Tauren combined.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/races/druid

Using these end-game statistics, we can see the breakdown of max-level race picks.

Night Elf comprises 36% of Druids. Worgen is 6%, Tauren is 13%.

36% of Druids are Night Elf. That is more than a 1/3rd.

I would say the REASON Night Elves are the most numerous Druids is because of lore. I think Druids are the most popular race in the game because of their gameplay, which has always remained highly competitive and entertaining. It's hard to compete with a class that offers the spells of a Mage, the sturdiness of a a Warrior, the agility and stealth of a Rogue, and the healing of a Priest all in one package. Over the years Blizzard has even blurred the lines between the specs to give aspects of one spec in another spec. The affinity talents in tier 30 being a prime example of this.

It also helps that Balance is currently overpowered, so Druid population is only going to grow for that.

Not true. Statistics don't seem to support this argument at all.

Maybe not in this expansion, but traditionally this has been the case. Rogues especially tend to do very well in PvP and have solid PvE performance.

[Ielenia]

Yet you're not talking about the Monk. You're talking about the DK. You can't say that I'm moving the goal posts if you're talking about gameplay changes of another class that is affected by completely different factors. The DK's design changes did not affect the popularity of marketability of the class, it retained all of the flavour and fantasy of playing as a Death Knight. The whole package of a DK, the presentation, the starting zones, the customization options, the Hero class title, all contribute to being Marketable features for the DK.

I used the death knight example because it counters your claim that the monk class has "failed design" because it changed so much, because the death knight also went through massive changes. Blood could no longer DPS, frost and unholy could no longer tank, and then later on, frost could no longer use two-handed weapons and blood and unholy could no longer dual-wield.

Those changes you mention about the monk's gameplay were changes that happened before the class went live. IIRC, that gameplay didn't even make it into the alpha version of MoP, so it's not like players had played with the class for a while as it was (no auto-attacks, 100% resource spender) to only get it removed and replaced in a following patch.

The point is: you claimed that the monk is an unpopular class because of those changes. You're stating it as if it's fact. And I'm saying you don't know it for sure, as there are several other factors that could influence their popularity, or lack thereof, like for the example the fact that the monk class was the only expansion class that started at level 1 instead of at later levels. Another factor could be because, of the three expansion classes, it's the only one that's whimsical, since the DK and DH are quite "dark and edgy".

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I can agree with this. DK design has really reinforced the Necromancer feel of the class.

That has zero to do with what is being discussed, but thank you for sharing your opinion.

[Triceron]

So yeah, it was a problem back then. It was a massive inconvenience, and if you doing dungeon runs you really didn't want a healer you wanted someone else.

Sure, it was a massive inconvenience. It has nothing to do with Druids being picked or not, as I said these were not considered problematic, just inconvenient.

Well the combat system they had in MoP and WoD was actually solid. I don't know what prompted them to drop Jab. Jab allowed you to attack with your equipped weapon, and it really added a lot to the Monk mystique. Then suddenly in Legion they dropped Jab, made Windwalker fist only, and gave Brewmaster Blackout Strike, which only allowed them to attack with staffs. Now in Shadowlands they removed Blackout Strike and you can only attack with fists and kicks as a Brewmaster, pretty much undercutting the entire lore behind the Brewmaster in the first place.

Yeah, the Monk class was definitely solid. Just sayying it didn't hit widespread appeal the way it could have if they had perfected the combat system as they intended.

I would say the REASON Night Elves are the most numerous Druids is because of lore.

I'd agree, lore definitely helped popularize Druids. We had an entire faction dedicated to the theme in WC3.

But Lore doesn't apply to all classes equally across the board. Scourge and Night Elf factions helped popularize DKs and Druids, and the DH had Illidan front and center to popularize the entire class.

Most of the class picks moving forward are dipping into B-tier concepts. Tinker and Mech Suits were not a heavy theme in WC3, and neither was Brewmasters and Monks. You can see why I'm skeptical of these themes becoming full features for an expansion; the Monk shows how merely having a connection to WC3 may not be enough.

Maybe not in this expansion, but traditionally this has been the case. Rogues especially tend to do very well in PvP and have solid PvE performance.

And Rogues have dipped into least played class just the same, in expansions where they excelled in PVP. It was more due to them suffering in PVE that led to people jumping ship and dropping population numbers nore than anything.

Like I said, the statistics don't support PVP contributing heavily to class population.

[Teriz]

Sure, it was a massive inconvenience. It has nothing to do with Druids being picked or not, as I said these were not considered problematic, just inconvenient.

You initially said they were chosen because they could heal. I'm pointing out to you why that belief was wrong.

Yeah, the Monk class was definitely solid. Just sayying it didn't hit widespread appeal the way it could have if they had perfected the combat system as they intended.

Frankly, the fact that they started at level 1 (no level boost in MoP, level cap 90) and weren't OP were a larger dent in their adoption rate.

I'd agree, lore definitely helped popularize Druids. We had an entire faction dedicated to the theme in WC3.

But Lore doesn't apply to all classes equally across the board. Scourge and Night Elf factions helped popularize DKs and Druids, and the DH had Illidan front and center to popularize the entire class.

Most of the class picks moving forward are dipping into B-tier concepts. Tinker and Mech Suits were not a heavy theme in WC3, and neither was Brewmasters and Monks. You can see why I'm skeptical of these themes becoming full features for an expansion; the Monk shows how merely having a connection to WC3 may not be enough.

Well you're comparing hero classes to standard classes. We also don't know if Blizzard considers Monks a failure.

And Rogues have dipped into least played class just the same, in expansions where they excelled in PVP. It was more due to them suffering in PVE that led to people jumping ship and dropping population numbers nore than anything.

Like I said, the statistics don't support PVP contributing heavily to class population.

Well in the case of Shaman its a combination of being bad in PvP AND PvE, and being in that state for multiple expansions.

[Triceron]

You initially said they were chosen because they could heal. I'm pointing out to you why that belief was wrong.

Except you didn't point it out being wrong?

I had two Druids I got to max level in Vanilla. My second Druid healed through dungeons perfectly fine, even without an out-of-combat res. I already explained that running back was simply an inconvenience, not a problem or an inability to heal through dungeons OR raids.

Like I said, not having a res was not a problem back in the day. You can even see that now in Classic WoW where there are plenty of Druid healers for dungeons and no one complains about the lack of a out-of-combat heal.

Healing dungeons doesn't require an Out of Combat heal, simple as that.

Well you're comparing hero classes to standard classes. We also don't know if Blizzard considers Monks a failure.

I didn't speak out on behalf of what Blizzard thinks, I'm pretty sure I was clear that I consider them a failure in terms of popularity and marketability; two standards which I believe Blizzard holds to high value. I mean, we did get a 2-spec, stolen/redundant-gameplay, overlapping themed leather-wearing, dual wielding Hero class chosen over a potential 3-role, diverse gameplay, unique themed class.

Tinker would have been the easier pick and there were plenty of Tech themes in Legion, including the Reaver suit and the Lightforged Warframes we saw in that expansion. Much less marketable though, unfortunately.

- - - Updated - - -

I used the death knight example because it counters your claim that the monk class has "failed design" because it changed so much

The context of changing was done within Alpha testing to Release, and removed a primary combat system that was touted as the main and unique feature for Monks.

Your DK example isn't relevant because the combat system for Monks was its main selling feature while the DK had plenty of features that made it straight into release, and only changed after people had already invested years into playing the class.

Things would be different if the Monk had the combat system and then they removed it later on; more people would have had reason to try out this new Monk class and the popularity would have spiked up rather than remain a fair deal of neutral throughout the entirity of WoW. Anything given to the Monk after was too little too late. People already associated the Monk's gameplay to being more-of-the-same rather than something brand new and unique.

Kinda like how Diablo 3 came out and was terrible, and despite what Blizzard did to turn the game around with Reaper of Souls the damage was done and the player numbers for the game never got back up to what it originally had at release. First impressions make a big difference. Same kind of thing happened with Heroes of the Storm; it plays like a great game now but it's too little too late. It will never get the attention it deserves because it stepped off on the wrong foot.

The point is: Monks didn't have a major feature to distinguish this class and build hype around. Their Marketability was not strong.
For the Bard, what first impression is Blizzard giving off if we assume it to not have a Support role and simply be 2DPS 1Heal class with a Music theme? Not much of an impression considering there's very little familiarity between this class concept and Warcraft.

[Ielenia]

Your DK example isn't relevant because the combat system for Monks was its main selling feature while the DK had plenty of features that made it straight into release, and only changed after people had already invested years into playing the class.

Was it one of main selling features, though? Was it really? I think people were more interested in a martial arts/unarmed class than the combat system itself.

As for the death knight, one of its main selling features was "tank in any spec", which was removed later on.

Kinda like how Diablo 3 came out and was terrible, and despite what Blizzard did to turn the game around with Reaper of Souls the damage was done and the player numbers for the game never got back up to what it originally had at release. First impressions make a big difference. Same kind of thing happened with Heroes of the Storm; it plays like a great game now but it's too little too late. It will never get the attention it deserves because it stepped off on the wrong foot.

That's a rather erroneous statement to make. A game's player base almost never goes back to the numbers they had at release. A game will almost always sees its peak # of players during the time immediately after its release, which could be a period of a few weeks or months. After that, it's a near constant decline. I mean, a game would never constantly remain at a plateau of players, or have an always ever-increasing number of players. At some point, it'll start dwindling, regardless of the game's quality.

The point is: Monks didn't have a major feature to distinguish this class and build hype around. Their Marketability was not strong.
For the Bard, what first impression is Blizzard giving off if we assume it to not have a Support role and simply be 2DPS 1Heal class with a Music theme? Not much of an impression considering there's very little familiarity between this class concept and Warcraft.

Gameplay. Gameplay features. I've pointed out one possibility earlier in this thread, a spellcasting system that works just like the game Magicka: the bard has a set of 'chord' abilities that, by themselves, don't do anything, but casting a set of three or more chords in succession cause different spell effects, from healing to damage to shield, to single-target to AoE.

[Teriz]

Except you didn't point it out being wrong?

I had two Druids I got to max level in Vanilla. My second Druid healed through dungeons perfectly fine, even without an out-of-combat res. I already explained that running back was simply an inconvenience, not a problem or an inability to heal through dungeons OR raids.

So you're saying you weren't wrong about this;

Druid was also the only other Healer class aside from Priests.

When Paladins and Shaman were also healer classes?

I didn't speak out on behalf of what Blizzard thinks, I'm pretty sure I was clear that I consider them a failure in terms of popularity and marketability; two standards which I believe Blizzard holds to high value. I mean, we did get a 2-spec, stolen/redundant-gameplay, overlapping themed leather-wearing, dual wielding Hero class chosen over a potential 3-role, diverse gameplay, unique themed class.

Tinker would have been the easier pick and there were plenty of Tech themes in Legion, including the Reaver suit and the Lightforged Warframes we saw in that expansion. Much less marketable though, unfortunately.

Tinker would have been a better pick for a Legion-themed expansion over Demon Hunters? Stop, because you're clearly not being serious here.