Masterloot should return

[rogoth]

There's a difference between playing a game where gear feels like a shopping list and one in which random rewards actually feel... rewarding. The deterministic gear systems of days gone by all but destroyed the latter feeling. Saying that they're afraid to bring them because they're "padding MAUs" or whatever is ridiculous because this argument can be used to support pretty much anything Blizzard does or doesn't do. (ie, "No fair, I didn't get my BiS weapon from the raid boss. Now I have to kill it again next week...fucking MAUs!!!!111") It's of course personal preference and obviously there are a lot of fans of deterministic gear systems; I generally don't have a problem with people having different opinions than I do, but I see a lot of people making arguments which completely ignore the downsides of these systems so they can come to the very unique conclusion that the only reason it isn't like that any more is because Blizzard is a (insert Jim Sterling here) TrIpLe-A gAmE dEvLoPeR.

your first bracketed response is both a very acute hypothetical situation that only a moron would argue, not only that but it's not even close to the point i was making, perhaps that's my fault for not explaining it better and expecting some degree of understanding to read between lines, let me make it perfectly clear:

the game as it is now is a shell of what it used to be, the number of people playing the game has diminished to the point that as a best guess estimate, there's only around 2-3 million players worldwide, blizzard no longer has the luxury of designing features and gameplay loops that can be 'finished' without significant time investment from players unlike years past when they had content that was very much 'oh you're done? ok come back for the new stuff later' because the playerbase was not only substantially bigger across all regions, the game was well known and big enough to attract new players at the same rate that people were leaving after 'finishing' the content and taking a break, every single design decision since legion development has likely been made with maximum player retention and 'forcing' players to stay logged in through monotonous 'insert expansion themed grind here' for player power with randomised rewards to the point you could run the same dungeon looking for that one specific trinket/weapon/whatever 10,000 times and never get it at the level you need it to be for the content you're running, this is not 'fun' nor is it 'engaging', it's why so many hated the titanforging system despite it working for a large number of people in a positive way.

deterministic loot is one of those things that blizzard has gone out of its way to remove from the game since WoD, and is extremely against adding back if it all possible using the, in my opinion at least, pathetic arguement of 'we want players to feel happy to earn their rewards when they are dropped randomly', i never bothered with pvp in TBC, i started with it wrath, and i can tell you i felt like i damn well earned the tokens needed to buy the gear i would use for pvp, and every time i got an upgrade it made me feel like going for that next piece to make myself just that little bit stronger until i was fully geared and i went in knowing that assuming skill parity i would more often than not come out a winner because of my effort and time investment and i felt rewarded for that, compared to modern times i can easily imagine the extreme levels of frustration because of hoping for that one key item you need and never seeing it drop because blizz thought in their infinite wisdom that was more 'fun' than being able to exchange your time for the exact piece of gear you wanted.

loot is now at the point where they have basically reverted back to the 'classic wow' style where everything is a static version of an item, and the quantity is non existent and this is just the most obvious recent change intended to drive player retention, i might just be cynical at this point but honestly there has been little to disprove the theory that the content is designed to keep players logged in and logging in over being fun and engaging like it used to be.

- - - Updated - - -

simple and no

- - - Updated - - -

lootfiesta with rng > masterloot with EVEN less loot

- - - Updated - - -

only big guilds want masterloot and their reign over randoms

this is both a fallacy and is also wrong, i pity you and the others like you that have this warped mindset because of a potentially bad experience at some point in time with a pug group and you lost out on some loot because of an egomaniac raid leader who had master looter enabled, let me say that is without a doubt one of the most rare things to happen with loot under the master looter ruleset and happened very infrequently but when ti did occur it was blown up out of all proportion to the point where the hivemind now believes it wholeheartedly.

- - - Updated - - -

In what kind of environment are you people playing that you do not want masterloot? Seriously..Personal loot is a horrible, insane Idea that only is here because people want purple pixels way to much. Progress is more important as loot. Loot is a means for progress.
If you play for loot, stop playing WoW and get a high paying job, then you can het IRL loot, whay actually marters.
Loot whores are only here for my entertainment, and like minded people as me.

to use a term, the people who are against this ruleset and who vehemently back personal loot are the ones that belong to the cesspool guilds, and/or have had a negative experience in a pug group with a raid leader who thought it was a good idea to ninja loot a contested item and screw those who want it over.

- - - Updated - - -

You're sound like a religious fanatic. I kill mythic bosses, therefore I'm mythic raider, that's about it. I don't need "right mindset", "have fun" or "be one piece of a greater whole" to kill mythic bosses. I just press buttons and get loot.

i'll give you a wow themed version of this well known phrase:

'not every hunter is an idiot, but every idiot plays a hunter'

when you understand the meaning of that quote apply it to yourself and understand that from the posts you have made and the mentality/mindset displayed within it's very much apparent you belong to the latter than the former, your response pretty much says it.

[Azerate]

Master looter only improves the experience for 0,001% of the players, and potentially badly affects like 80%+ of the playerbase, potentially including some people within those high end guilds who only say they enjoy sharing loot because that's expected of them, but in reality they want more stuff for themselves. I think it's obvious whether it should return or not.

Here's the thing: if people unanimously want something, Blizzard gives it to them. One great recent example would be covenant abilities in legacy content. Blizzard briefly intended for them not to work outside SL, but there was massive backlash and they changed their mind. People DO NOT want master looter. Even in mythic guilds people want their loot to be theirs, and the "I can't trade it QQ" is a very handy excuse to mask that you just don't want to give people your stuff.

Give up

In what kind of environment are you people playing that you do not want masterloot? Seriously..Personal loot is a horrible, insane Idea that only is here because people want purple pixels way to much. Progress is more important as loot. Loot is a means for progress.
If you play for loot, stop playing WoW and get a high paying job, then you can het IRL loot, whay actually marters.
Loot whores are only here for my entertainment, and like minded people as me.

In every kind.

The same people that tell you "sure mate, I'd love to give this item that just dropped for me to you but I can't... F BLIZZARD MAN" are actually delighted there is no master loot and no one is taking their items from them. Don't be silly.

And the stories that high end raiders aren't loot whores / dps whores belong between other fairy tales.

[Makabreska]

I remember when it was announced that ML would be gone, everyone lost their minds and few said it was good for the game.
Now it's the complete opposite and the majority says it's fine and only few want ML back. How the tables have turned. (Or all the players who preferred ML have quit)

This is vert often the case with many changes, like for example AoE cap in SL. Peeps even got used to that damn BfA GCD (granted, restriction was loosened for several spells).

[Relapses]

loot is now at the point where they have basically reverted back to the 'classic wow' style where everything is a static version of an item, and the quantity is non existent and this is just the most obvious recent change intended to drive player retention, i might just be cynical at this point but honestly there has been little to disprove the theory that the content is designed to keep players logged in and logging in over being fun and engaging like it used to be.

So a.) this kind of cynicism is as bland and pointless as it's ever been; and b.) has it crossed your mind that your idea of "fun and engaging" is different than somebody else's? When you've already become disengaged to the point where you have to justify all the bad things that happen in the game with something as boring and non-descript as "padding player metrics" then there's little point in having this discussion with you. Just fucking quit the game already. Jesus.

[rogoth]

So a.) this kind of cynicism is as bland and pointless as it's ever been; and b.) has it crossed your mind that your idea of "fun and engaging" is different than somebody else's? When you've already become disengaged to the point where you have to justify all the bad things that happen in the game with something as boring and non-descript as "padding player metrics" then there's little point in having this discussion with you. Just fucking quit the game already. Jesus.

just so it's apparent, i haven't played in over a year, i quit midway through BDA mythic progression after the guild i was in at the time fell apart and i had no desire to go again on the merry go round that is hunting for a guild that is at the same level with people i can get along with and does things within my schedule.

[Amarys]

Oh hell no! I don't miss the ninjas and, corrupt officers and loot drama one bit.

[loras]

Heya. I havent played BFA i took a long break.
Now i have returned in shadowlands and also returned to competetive raiding.
Dam the amount of loot that is actually wasted with personal loot is beyong my imagination.
Why do people complain that much about masterloot in een Guild raid envoirment?
Like if ur in the guild u want to progress and giving certain classes their correct stats helps...
Now you are forced to keep the crappy Ring so you can trae the next ring you will get..

Power abuse is a thing, especially in guilds.
PL forces guilds to treat trials properly for one, and it prevents a lot of drama due to favouritism and guild politics.
For non guild situations it's even better obviously.

Additionally all of the downsides PL supposedly has are rarely convincing, to not say almost comically exaggerated.

I'd be happy to see ML stay dead.

[Swnem]

I understand concerns, but honestly i like the system we have. It has been refreshing to no longer have loot drama BS.
Also, really helps the pace of raids not having to sort out loot.

[Kumorii]

Did no one play vanilla and tbc etc etc? Loot ninjas were everywhere. Problem is you don't know that they are until the loot drops.

I agree on that they should loosen up the ilvl restrictions however. You can trade 3-6ilvl above your items since that often means stats are more important than ilvl.

[Kralljin]

Can we stop this myth that the Legion restrictions on ML had any impact on the main reason it was removed? (Because Trials hate not getting loot.)

Considering people are throwing around the claim that it got removed due to customer support ticks, i fail to see your point.

Here's the thing: if people unanimously want something, Blizzard gives it to them. One great recent example would be covenant abilities in legacy content. Blizzard briefly intended for them not to work outside SL, but there was massive backlash and they changed their mind. People DO NOT want master looter. Even in mythic guilds people want their loot to be theirs, and the "I can't trade it QQ" is a very handy excuse to mask that you just don't want to give people your stuff.

It took Blizzard 7(!) years to remove any varation of Warforging, so the claim "If people actually wanted this, Blizzard would do it" may be true if you're willing to wait quite a while.

[rrayy]

I can agree original master loot turned a bit toxic by the end (and im sure before that too). But there was nothing wrong with guild master loot, it just gives guilds an option if they want it or not. Nothing stopping them using personal if thats what they choose.

Did the removal of gml stop me playing? - No. But removal of options becasue of the vocal minority who had one bad experience once 10 years ago really kinda sucks for those who want to play the game in a way of their choosing.

Blizzard has the data. They never would have made the change if it was only a "vocal minority who had one bad experience 10 years ago". It was far more than that.

[Razion]

there was no loot drama among serious competitive guilds,we all knew the gearing process was for the better of progression,now if you have to get someone new or an alt to help with a boss,and they are dead weight,because its better than going in 19,and they end up getting someting they cant even trade...how is that not much worse?

btw i think personal loot is AWSOME,i just dont think forcing it is

Loot drama is an issue that can affect everybody. Guild leaders who are good today can turn sour overnight due to spilled milk and drama. Don't pretend this isn't something that can and has happened to guilds in the past. We've all heard the stories of GMs who give loot to their favorite people - gfs, only those within loot council, never to anyone on application, someone who is quitting the guild, or someone who just wants that BiS or legendary, and so on, and so on. The fact of the matter is that the loot master is the one with all the power at the end of the day even if a guild has established a fair distribution system internally. There's no actual systemic support for things like loot council or DKP or otherwise. Plus, it's to my understanding you need to establish loot rules at the start of a run in text so that you can have Blizzard support best help you if something goes south. Even when that does work out - does that sound like a working system to you? No. It can and should be better. People don't deserved to be subject to other people like this. Loot should be fair, for everyone, period.

The issue you're bringing up is that gear drops, it's a higher item level, but that doesn't necessarily constitute an upgrade so it's a shame you got that loot, and you want to trade it. This is an issue with itemization. Item level SHOULD be reflective of how much a piece of gear is actually going to be an upgrade for you and hell it either should be more dynamically calculated or the power of item level should be more absolute and relevant but either way it isn't. Item level SHOULD reflect upgrades and it has even been said before that it would going into certain expansions but right lately it hasn't. But everyone should have a chance at upgrades. Loot should be fair. Fixing itemization fixes a lot of the initial problem here but there's still one more thing that needs to be looked at: gear funneling.

Gear funneling. And yet, even when item level is sufficiently an upgrade. Competitive guilds try to run entire runs for one individual character just to gear them up. When it's new recruits and someone trying to catch up in gear, this is wholesome. When it's being abused to get each and every member of a raid team geared up faster than other people who are running raids normally throughout the week and don't have the luxury of having each and every member of their team given more loot than normal, there starts to be an imbalance in not only how fast these people are gearing but also in the nature of a fair and just competition. There is some RNG in loot as it is which already made competitions not as fair, especially historically with things like Titanforging and Corruption, but adding this much as well on top of it in addition to all the other BoE billions of gold throwing more of a wrench into things. I'd probably say, hey, Tournament Realms starting to look like a good idea right about now which maybe that solves the top-end competitive part of the problem. But it wouldn't solve the itemization speed issue and content being consumed too fast as a result, and also it wouldn't solve the issue of people trying to be optimal and doing everything they can to get ahead: the issue of people still doing these alt raids and funneling gear to one person is still unfair when Master Looter exists. Why bother with Master Looter when Personal Loot is more fair? This is why the item level restriction is there in the first place, to hit gear funneling. And maybe it doesn't stop all of it, if for example all these alt raids are just as geared as main raids that starts to become another problem. With Master Loot this would be a nightmare of only the highest of top percent guilds being so geared the content would either be trivialized or other guilds wouldn't have a decent shot at doing it at all. With Personal Loot it better solves the issue - raid loot is weekly, and Personal Loot is random and based on upgrades. With a system like Titanforging getting in the way it would even harder for these top-end guilds to funnel gear to specific mains on runs dedicated specifically to those characters. In this light, this kind of system is a positive against gear funneling and even acts as surprise catch-up for guilds who are otherwise behind.

[rrayy]

In what kind of environment are you people playing that you do not want masterloot? Seriously..Personal loot is a horrible, insane Idea that only is here because people want purple pixels way to much. Progress is more important as loot. Loot is a means for progress.
If you play for loot, stop playing WoW and get a high paying job, then you can het IRL loot, whay actually marters.
Loot whores are only here for my entertainment, and like minded people as me.

False. That is not why it is here at all. It is here because everyone wants a fair shot at loot. The only type of player that pl is insane to is those that used others to gear themselves and their buddies.

[T-34]

Blizzard has the data. They never would have made the change if it was only a "vocal minority who had one bad experience 10 years ago". It was far more than that.

The only reason why Blizzard removed Master Loot was to stop having to deal with the immense amount of loot drama tickets. A lot GM's could be fired because of that. That it made the majority of the player base happy is just icing on the cake.

[Biomega]

serious guilds still treat all pl loot as master loot,only in cases where it cant be traded ofc thats that,this forced plm change has only led to more drama and bad feelings,because now you are told to give something you got away

This applies to a TINY fraction of guilds, playing at a level where everyone understands why you do this and accepts it as a matter of course. It's far, far less widespread than use of ML was before.

[rogoth]

Power abuse is a thing, especially in guilds.
PL forces guilds to treat trials properly for one, and it prevents a lot of drama due to favouritism and guild politics.
For non guild situations it's even better obviously.

Additionally all of the downsides PL supposedly has are rarely convincing, to not say almost comically exaggerated.

I'd be happy to see ML stay dead.

this arguement is seen time and time again and while i'm not going to say it doesn't happen, it is a very very small minority of guilds, and it was fairly rare back in the day with pugs due to personal server reputation and being shunned by that community, i wish people would stop claiming this arguement is fact when it's all opinion based and nothing but 'my feelings say so therefore it is' and no real substance for the majority of players.

[Drusin]

Masterloot should return

[Aktec]

False. That is not why it is here at all. It is here because everyone wants a fair shot at loot. The only type of player that pl is insane to is those that used others to gear themselves and their buddies.

So when I have a 213 staff and cant trade a 200 offhand to my guilde who it would be a big upgrade for because of the shitty PL rules what do you call that? I'd call that insane.

[Relapses]

This applies to a TINY fraction of guilds, playing at a level where everyone understands why you do this and accepts it as a matter of course. It's far, far less widespread than use of ML was before.

I promise you there are quite a few guilds in the Top 1000 who still loot council tradeable loot.

[rrayy]

So when I have a 213 staff and cant trade a 200 offhand to my guilde who it would be a big upgrade for because of the shitty PL rules what do you call that? I'd call that insane.

I'd call that unlucky RNG. But I would rather have that over players getting exploited by scummy raid leaders or loot councils who are exploiting others to funnel gear to themselves and their buddies.

- - - Updated - - -

this arguement is seen time and time again and while i'm not going to say it doesn't happen, it is a very very small minority of guilds, and it was fairly rare back in the day with pugs due to personal server reputation and being shunned by that community, i wish people would stop claiming this arguement is fact when it's all opinion based and nothing but 'my feelings say so therefore it is' and no real substance for the majority of players.

Yet you are doing the same thing by claiming as fact it was only a very small minority of guilds. That is nothing but your opinion.

The real facts are that Blizzard has the data and they never would have made the change if things were what you claim. so, going by that it is obvious it was far more of a problem.