Limit's WF kill is almost the same ilevel as guilds downing it 2 resets after

[Relapses]

Wow has no stat related items that require cash to obtain, so no.

For the average player, sure. But for large organizations pushing the RWF, it absolutely is. These organizations have the liquidity and the ability to conduct sales runs for gold and remain above the board on paper but only a fool would believe that all gold in WoW is generated from non-RMT sources.

- - - Updated - - -

The race would be much more exciting if BoEs didn't exist.

Blizzard doesn't seem to care too much because the race is dictated entirely by the community. The only way I could see BoEs going away were if Blizzard officially sanctioned the RWF but that simply doesn't seem to be an option for the foreseeable future (regardless of how much top guilds competing in the RWF beg for it).

[Mendzia]

... that is why raid BoEs should no longer be a thing imho.
Race would be much more interesting without it.

[Narzok]

So does this mean WoW is officially P2W now?

this depends on a few things:

-how do you define "pay"?
the original P2W implies real money for ingame advantages that would take massively more in-game investment or are straight up locked behind real money purchases.
gold can be farmed with in-game options better than the token could.
if you consider using in-game currency for in-game gains as P2W, then almost every game with gear would be P2W.

-what does "win" mean to you?
in the context of the WF race, "win" is easy to define.
but in general, many people have different opinions on how they enjoy the game and thus "win".
boosting your char to high ilvl and skipping part of what raiding means to some, i.e. overcoming a challenge by steadily getting better, would be the opposite of "winning".
compare it to cheats in GTA: a mechanic that is part of the game, fun for some, boring for others.

for me, winning at WoW means having fun with my guild getting as far as we can. we just cleared normal castle yesterday, and we were happy despite being dogshit at the game.

[Jazzhands]

For the average player, sure. But for large organizations pushing the RWF, it absolutely is. These organizations have the liquidity and the ability to conduct sales runs for gold and remain above the board on paper but only a fool would believe that all gold in WoW is generated from non-RMT sources.

RMT has nothing to do with a game being P2W. Where the gold comes from means nothing, it all has to do with stat items being locked behind cash and only cash, such games is where the term literally came from and people just conflate it to shit on WoW. P2W games are games where someone has to use real money at some point for items, end game guilds are not forced in any way to spend real cash and if they do I hope they axe the guild

All the BoEs that <Random Guild> paid tons for had to drop regularly, they weren't purchased (and aren't exclusively purchasable) on a shop, even if <Random Guild> had paid cash for them that still doesn't make WoW P2W.

[Mirishka]

BOEs, AH, whatever. Doesn't change the fact that these are some of the best WoW players in the world, and anyone who thinks the difference between their casual heroic raid and Limit is buying BOEs with gold is high on bleach fumes.

And I say that as someone who doesn't give a flying fuck about the world first race.

[Relapses]

RMT has nothing to do with a game being P2W. Where the gold comes from means nothing, it all has to do with stat items being locked behind cash and only cash, such games is where the term literally came from and people just conflate it to shit on WoW. P2W games are games where someone has to use real money at some point for items, end game guilds are not forced in any way to spend real cash and if they do I hope they axe the guild

All the BoEs that <Random Guild> paid tons for had to drop regularly, they weren't purchased (and aren't exclusively purchasable) on a shop, even if <Random Guild> had paid cash for them that still doesn't make WoW P2W.

It makes the RWF P2W which is exactly what I said. Jesus fuck dude.

[Your Mommy]

the original P2W implies real money for ingame advantages that would take massively more in-game investment

That's literally what's happening here. You can get the gear by working for it or just straight up buy it with money. Those WF guilds didn't want to put (or waste) the time of getting those mythic BoEs so they bought it instead.

[melzas]

This was always the case in WoW for ilevel differences? Don't think so.

Yeah and it is now. So??

[dacoolist]

After months and months and months of play: everyone will be able to obtain full 226 gear from the m+14 weekly vault. Just like its been for the last 2-3 years.. you dont have to do anything but sub to the game and work your way up from m0 to m2/3/4/5... eventually everyone will be able to run 14/15’s with ease.

Saying its pay to win sounds like someones mad that their are some boe’s that have decent stats that are going to just somehow carry you to 2.1k / or 14s right now... not to mention world first sire mythic.. or gladiator/r1... it’s just not the case.

Sure you can get full 226 , but world first guilds need a little edge to be able to tackle the content unerfed etc

[Jazzhands]

It makes the RWF P2W which is exactly what I said. Jesus fuck dude.

Nothing about the RWF changes how items are obtained within the game so... No? There are no P2W aspects in WoW no matter how you try to frame it.

[VinceVega]

Serisously. Wow is not pay2win for the normal player.

You can't clear anything by spending RL money. To get a high iLvL you would have to spend hundreds of dollars/euros and the loot has got to be available in the auction house.

WF Guilds are financing it with subsequent sell runs in mythic.

So yes. Technically you could raise your iLvl a bit via buying tokens and in turn buying Mythic Loot from the AH.
But:
1. there is not loot for every slot
2. limited number of loot
3. Even with all 226 loot it will not suddenly make you be able to clear mythic. A good player with 200 loot will still be more usefull for the guild than a movementidiot with 226.

TLDR: I don't see this as a real problem for anyone else than the WF guilds. And as MMO-Champion is always telling me left and right: Mythic raiders are the woooooorst

[Karlz0rz]

Sounds an awful lot like "I could be an Olympic sprinter/weightlifter/thrower/whatever too if only I had the time and resources to train all day"

The difference between an olympian and me IS the fact that they have dedicated their time and resources into getting to that level :P. Sure, I might not have the natural talent to become the best, but I can get within some fraction of it.
And I agree with the one you are quoting - The race to world first would be A LOT better if they didn't show up to the raid with gear that averages maybe 2-5 ilvls less than what the raid difficulty drops :P.

[Relapses]

Nothing about the RWF changes how items are obtained within the game so... No? There are no P2W aspects in WoW no matter how you try to frame it.

I'll try to slow this down for you: For the specific intention of participating in the RWF organizations need to invest actual capital into the video game some of which is offset by the ridiculous amounts of gold spent on things like BoEs. If they don't, the other organization that does will have an advantage.

[Millyraynge]

On Preach's WF round table, both Echo and Limit admitted to spending upwards of 300 million gold on BoEs this race. It's amazing how far we've come since 2014 when WoWProgress added a rule that blacklisted Chinese guilds for abusing the BMAH:

Just remove difficulty based BoEs entirely and lock heroic cross server raiding for 1 or 2 weeks. This would be very healthy for the wf competition.

[kamuimac]

Limit
Killed Dec 23, 2020 21:58:33 GMT
Recorded Raid Item Level: 221.00

MNM
Killed Jan 6, 2021 19:52:21 GMT
Recorded Raid Item Level: 220.96

Right
Killed Jan 10, 2021 08:22:22 GMT
Recorded Raid Item Level: 222.11



Pretty ridiculous how much split runs and BoEs mean now to the WF race.

to be fair limit was complaining about boes too - and super strongly

they got basicly screwed by people this time around - this included people stealing their trash lockouts while they were asleep multiple times day after day and then extorting them for 6-7 mln gold for each boe they farmed in those stolen lockouts.

boes are desperate try from blizzard to make money on tokens this tier - with no loot droping anywhere else obvious solution is to buy gold and buy boes

be became pay to win in wow.

- - - Updated - - -

Just remove difficulty based BoEs entirely and lock heroic cross server raiding for 1 or 2 weeks. This would be very healthy for the wf competition.

why should they

WF is not even something acknowledged by blizzard

its a desperate try to make money on twitch by leaders of those guilds. not something which blizzard supports

[Xath]

I'll try to slow this down for you: For the specific intention of participating in the RWF organizations need to invest actual capital into the video game some of which is offset by the ridiculous amounts of gold spent on things like BoEs. If they don't, the other organization that does will have an advantage.

Limit at least isn't buying gold method apparently did but Limit just takes out gold loans and pays them back doing sells.

[kamuimac]

After months and months and months of play: everyone will be able to obtain full 226 gear from the m+14 weekly vault. Just like its been for the last 2-3 years.. you dont have to do anything but sub to the game and work your way up from m0 to m2/3/4/5... eventually everyone will be able to run 14/15’s with ease.

Saying its pay to win sounds like someones mad that their are some boe’s that have decent stats that are going to just somehow carry you to 2.1k / or 14s right now... not to mention world first sire mythic.. or gladiator/r1... it’s just not the case.

Sure you can get full 226 , but world first guilds need a little edge to be able to tackle the content unerfed etc

thats a stright lie. majority of playerbase will never run anothing higher then 7-8 even with 220 because they lack skills to do it.

i mean i have seen this week a 200+ itl mage doing like 3k aoe and maaaybe 2k ST with all cds burned on bosses. those people will never run high keys unless they wil lget boosted by others.

[shadowmatrix]

If gear was all it took to beat mythic then there should be a few hundred clears and about a thousand raids teams atleast 8 out of 10 by now.

[Jazzhands]

I'll try to slow this down for you: For the specific intention of participating in the RWF organizations need to invest actual capital into the video game some of which is offset by the ridiculous amounts of gold spent on things like BoEs. If they don't, the other organization that does will have an advantage.

That's still not P2W, I'm not sure what's hard to understand about this. P2W refers to a very specific cash shop practice that's often heavily utilized in "F2P" games, and said practice does not exist in WOW in any form. It's not a broad sweeping term that applies any time real money can be spent in an MMO.

[GnomeEU]

The ilvl is basically the requirement to even try some mythic bosses. I have still ilvl 210 so I'd absolutely hate it to be around 4/10 mythic already and always wipe to enrages.

Im pretty sure everyone will do +14 mythic one day.
It's pretty much expected to heal all the fails unless they're one shot.

If 3 melee stand in the cleave it's the healers fault.
If no one interrupts anything and dps is low its definitely the healers fault.
If the dps is low its the tanks fault for being too squishy.

I'm pretty sure sooner or later everyone with gear is getting some decent rating.