View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #27041
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The problem is UK musicians, think The Beatles, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones etc etc ought to easily qualify for visa free touring. However what the UK receives back from the EU is not of equal value...

    There has been an increase in the use of animals in street performances by buskers of EU origin

    https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-...-dogs-15484632

    Clearly the UK when comparing the two would reject EU proposals, a benefit of Brexit is this disparity is now resolved.
    Could not name anything more modern and actually playing? Seriously? I asked you for a proof about fake musicians, not some absolutely bogus bullshit answer about dogs used in street performances or groups from sixties. You provided nothing as usual in this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  2. #27042
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Could not name anything more modern and actually playing? Seriously? I asked you for a proof about fake musicians, not some absolutely bogus bullshit answer about dogs used in street performances or groups from sixties. You provided nothing as usual in this thread.
    Both Genesis and Rolling Stones are still playing live, but that whole COVID thing got in the way of them going on their planned tours last year.

    But yeah, being a Brexiteer now seems to include being a gatekeepeer on music taste too, apparently. If these pesky EU artists could do successful tours in the UK before, there must clearly be some Brits that do want to listen to them live.

  3. #27043
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Could not name anything more modern and actually playing? Seriously? I asked you for a proof about fake musicians, not some absolutely bogus bullshit answer about dogs used in street performances or groups from sixties. You provided nothing as usual in this thread.
    Um little thing called Covid you missed it? Not many stadium being filled right now.

    More modern you ask, how about the year 2019 just pre Covid with Ed Sheeran's divide tour, the highest grossing world concert tour of all time then is that good enough?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._concert_tours

    Until currently low EU standards, as evidenced by that wiki, are on par the UK will thanks to Brexit set the rules on artistry visas Europe wide and the EU will have no say in it. I would say the EU needs UK performers more than the UK needs EU ones, bit like in every sphere of life as Brexiteers have been saying for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Both Genesis and Rolling Stones are still playing live, but that whole COVID thing got in the way of them going on their planned tours last year.

    But yeah, being a Brexiteer now seems to include being a gatekeepeer on music taste too, apparently. If these pesky EU artists could do successful tours in the UK before, there must clearly be some Brits that do want to listen to them live.
    Seriously which artists? ABBA and their warblings maybe, who else?
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  4. #27044
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Both Genesis and Rolling Stones are still playing live, but that whole COVID thing got in the way of them going on their planned tours last year.
    I'm also sure that Genesis and the Rolling Stones have managers that can deal with the Visa issues for any country they plan to tour.

    What I find more confusing is that the uk as the smaller part wanting a shorter time. Musicians on tour will likely already spend fewer days in the uk than in the EU; so why would the rule be needed?

    And it seems the non-EU buskers with dogs would not be allowed to work as artists in most EU-countries, as you normally need a more formal arrangement (tour-plan etc); which wouldn't stop Genesis or the Rolling Stones.

    However, the simple reason is that the EU has three kinds of visa: A for airport transit, C up to 90 days, D for longer stays; and don't see a need to invent a new category for no good reason.

  5. #27045
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Um little thing called Covid you missed it? Not many stadium being filled right now.

    More modern you ask, how about the year 2019 just pre Covid with Ed Sheeran's divide tour, the highest grossing world concert tour of all time then is that good enough?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._concert_tours

    Until currently low EU standards, as evidenced by that wiki, are on par the UK will thanks to Brexit set the rules on artistry visas Europe wide and the EU will have no say in it. I would say the EU needs UK performers more than the UK needs EU ones, bit like in every sphere of life as Brexiteers have been saying for years.



    Seriously which artists? ABBA and their warblings maybe, who else?
    Ah, so UK does not listen to rest of European music? Bold statement, Cotton. I am sure no one listens to Rammstein or Daft Punk
    But I guess to you only the biggest sales count? Fascinating view of music.
    Also, would be strange if Beattles were filling stadiums now.

    Looks like you also want to argue about taste - which is just plain dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Both Genesis and Rolling Stones are still playing live, but that whole COVID thing got in the way of them going on their planned tours last year.

    But yeah, being a Brexiteer now seems to include being a gatekeepeer on music taste too, apparently. If these pesky EU artists could do successful tours in the UK before, there must clearly be some Brits that do want to listen to them live.
    I would say that Genesis is doing the classical nothing for a decade then "coming back together" tour, RS are the only ones from his list which are truly active.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  6. #27046
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Reading the linked article (and others) it appears that visa exemption for musicians was something that both sides wanted but failed to agree on the details. Obviously neither side wants to be held responsible by their respective voters so are, predictably, pointing fingers. I suspect that by the time musicians are able to tour again that the details will be ironed out and agreements in place and this will turn out be a non-issue.
    The EU offered a standard deal, and the UK turned it down because they "didn't want EU musicians coming over here". Trust you to try and "both sides" something that is pretty clearly a xenophobic failure on the UK side. For someone that supposedly voted leave and paints himself as an honest man in the middle, you do love contorting yourself into knots defending the Brexit crew.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  7. #27047
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    What I find more confusing is that the uk as the smaller part wanting a shorter time. Musicians on tour will likely already spend fewer days in the uk than in the EU; so why would the rule be needed?
    Priti Patel was apparently involved, so what else do you expect...

  8. #27048
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Reading the linked article (and others) it appears that visa exemption for musicians was something that both sides wanted but failed to agree on the details. Obviously neither side wants to be held responsible by their respective voters so are, predictably, pointing fingers. I suspect that by the time musicians are able to tour again that the details will be ironed out and agreements in place and this will turn out be a non-issue.
    What the fuck do you think musicians, conductors, sound engineers, roadies, tour managers, hauliers, all the support staff etc. are doing at the moment, huh? Putting their feet up and enjoying the long break?

    They are desperate. They are leaving the industry.

    You suspect “by the time musicians are able to tour again that the details will be ironed out and agreements in place and this will turn out be a non-issue”, well, I know that the industry has been irrevocably damaged by Covid. Any further self-inflicted, Brexit-related damage is unthinkable. It's that straight forward. Your response to this, is what? I suspect and non-issue. This is offensive and incomprehensible.
    Last edited by LeGin Tufnel; 2021-01-10 at 09:35 PM.

  9. #27049
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    On a separate note, why has Dribbles not been infracted for, yet again, repeating the £350m bus lie? I’m willing to tolerate a bit of wind-up from Dribbles, but this is blatant trolling and should be treated as such.
    And it's not the only clear lie - there was also the blatant lie about more paid vacation days in the uk; or claiming that leave still had the same support as during the election - using one specific opinion poll that had a hefty margin for remain-supporters but in some way got a very small margin for leave (others show remain in lead).

    However, as we all know people spreading blatant lies for trolling or political gains is completely harmless; and no-one cares whether you use social media for that.
    /s

  10. #27050
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    And it's not the only clear lie - there was also the blatant lie about more paid vacation days in the uk; or claiming that leave still had the same support as during the election - using one specific opinion poll that had a hefty margin for remain-supporters but in some way got a very small margin for leave (others show remain in lead).

    However, as we all know people spreading blatant lies for trolling or political gains is completely harmless; and no-one cares whether you use social media for that.
    /s
    Remainers tried to say it was a lie when it travelled the nation on the side of a bug red bus. They failed to refute the figure decisively then and still do to this day and they lost the debate. If it was incorrect the electoral commission would have stopped that bus apronto, yet they didn't.

    Even today on the UK.gov website they quote a gross EU contribution in theoretical liability in excess of £350 million (actually £384 bn a week or £20bn ayear if u want to know exactly) a week for 2018. Are the UK government trolling? Who knows how much it would have been today if we hadn't voted to leave, thank heavens for the big red Boris bus.

    In 2018 the UK’s gross contribution to the EU amounted to £20.0 billion

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gover...get/2017-10-31

    Who'd have thunk it. Conservatives being conservative with the fiscal figures.

    (cue remainers blah blah blah nonsense about how the UK gets much of it back, it doesn't matter, the UK lost control of all that money and were directed to spend it as the EU saw fit often in futile attempts at breaking up and dividing the UK. Not any more thanks to the nation coming together and taking back control behind brexit.)

    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  11. #27051
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    In 2018 the UK’s gross contribution to the EU amounted to £20.0 billion
    The bus was not touring the UK in 2018. The numbers for 2018 are irrelevant.

    in 2015, the UK's gross contributions were 17.779B pounds, which works out at 341.9M per week if you divide that by 52. However, the UK received 9.306B pounds back from the EU. The total load on the UK's budget for the year of 2015 (the UK would have had to spend that money anyway) was therefore 8.473B pounds, or 162.9M per calendar week.

    Even if you refuse to acknowledge the actual amount of money that was not returned to the UK (and the net contribution does not take trade boosting the economy into account), the 350M number is at least 8 million pounds too high.

    source: https://assets.publishing.service.go...b_09122015.pdf
    Last edited by Butler to Baby Sloths; 2021-01-10 at 11:43 PM.

  12. #27052
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Not any more thanks to the nation coming together
    Ha, you think the nation is coming together? Scotland want out right now, Wales isn't far off having a full on independance movement and you guys have pretty much given NI away already...

  13. #27053
    Quote Originally Posted by Attackrabbit View Post
    Ha, you think the nation is coming together? Scotland want out right now, Wales isn't far off having a full on independance movement and you guys have pretty much given NI away already...
    I wouldn't be surprised if the people of London if given a choice to abandon the UK wouldn't also vote out too.

  14. #27054
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The problem is UK musicians, think The Beatles, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones etc etc ought to easily qualify for visa free touring. However what the UK receives back from the EU is not of equal value...
    Funny you bring them up because they had their breakthrough in Germany... under your new super cool Brexit policies, we never would have had The Beatles most likely. Well done, Brexit! You would have prevented one of the greatest (maybe the greatest) bands of all time!


    Edit: I am actually not sure how the visa situation was before the UK joined the EU, but I think they had that figured out in some post war contracts. But this could easily be wrong and misremembered by me and I am too lazy to search for it now, because it's too late...
    Last edited by Inuyaki; 2021-01-11 at 01:54 AM.

  15. #27055
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the people of London if given a choice to abandon the UK wouldn't also vote out too.
    The people of Brighton would leave in a heartbeat as well.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  16. #27056
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    In 2018 the UK’s gross contribution to the EU amounted to £20.0 billion
    That gross is misleading and outright lying when compared to the claim.

    The bus didn't say "We gross contribute £350 million per week to the EU, let's gross contribute that to NHS", did it?

    States that the actual contribution after abatement ("rebate") was £15.5 billion, which arguable is what was sent - but there's more!

    But this only accounts for the money that the UK pays to the EU – some of this £15.5 billion is credited back to the UK public sector, of which a proportion is then paid to the private sector...
    Given these figures, the ONS reports that the UK government's net contribution to the EU – that is, the difference between the money it paid to the EU and the money it received – was £11.0 billion in 2018 compared with the £20.0 billion theoretical liability.
    ...
    This calculation considers the abatement, the money the EU sends to the UK government, and the money the EU sends directly to the UK private sector.

    This is arguably a more complete picture of the money that flows between the UK and the EU and in 2018 the net flow was £8.6 billion.
    So, the uk didn't send £20 billion to the EU, but about £8.6 billion.

    So, you are misleading/lying and your own source shows that.

    Same as when you lied about the uk having more paid vacation than in the EU, when the uk has the EU-minimum of 28 days; it's just that the uk employers tried to cheat by counting 5-day weeks - that's why the uk has more "weeks", but the minimum amount of days.

  17. #27057
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    The people of Brighton would leave in a heartbeat as well.
    Fuck it, I say end the uk and bring back the old Anglo saxon kingdoms as well as reunited Ireland and independent Scotland and Wales

  18. #27058
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Um little thing called Covid you missed it? Not many stadium being filled right now.

    More modern you ask, how about the year 2019 just pre Covid with Ed Sheeran's divide tour, the highest grossing world concert tour of all time then is that good enough?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._concert_tours

    Until currently low EU standards, as evidenced by that wiki, are on par the UK will thanks to Brexit set the rules on artistry visas Europe wide and the EU will have no say in it. I would say the EU needs UK performers more than the UK needs EU ones, bit like in every sphere of life as Brexiteers have been saying for years.



    Seriously which artists? ABBA and their warblings maybe, who else?
    It's pretty silly to think that your taste or lack thereof, in music, should be the deciding factor in what your countrymen can listen to and vice versa.

    What's wth the communist approach to letting govt. decide for the people?

    Also bands can still play overseas, it's just that a visa is needed. And no they wont get rejected because the old fart issuing the visa, shares your taste in music.

  19. #27059
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    That gross is misleading and outright lying when compared to the claim.

    The bus didn't say "We gross contribute £350 million per week to the EU, let's gross contribute that to NHS", did it?


    States that the actual contribution after abatement ("rebate") was £15.5 billion, which arguable is what was sent - but there's more!


    So, the uk didn't send £20 billion to the EU, but about £8.6 billion.

    So, you are misleading/lying and your own source shows that.

    Same as when you lied about the uk having more paid vacation than in the EU, when the uk has the EU-minimum of 28 days; it's just that the uk employers tried to cheat by counting 5-day weeks - that's why the uk has more "weeks", but the minimum amount of days.
    Gross figures are commonplace and the accepted easily understood normal used in these and many other cases in the UK. From job adverts quoting a salary of £100k Gross, no one expects to net £2k a week but the gross figure is still used and yet not stated as such. When the UK builds a new aircraft carrier at a published gross cost of £4bn you don't start saying yeah but all the shipworkers ate cheese rolls at Mavis's gaff for two years so the country got a rebate and the carrier didn't cost £4bn really.

    Only remainers have a problem with the UK government reporting the EU used to cost us in excess of £350 million a week gross, or 4 or 5 aircraft carriers a year. Luckily most of the electorate, in their tens of millions, agreed with me on the clarity of those figures at the time of the referendum and voted for Brexit on that basis.

    It was not incorrect, misleading or a lie on the Brexit side to run that add on that bus.
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  20. #27060
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Gross figures are commonplace and the accepted easily understood normal used in these and many other cases in the UK. From job adverts quoting a salary of £100k Gross, no one expects to net £2k a week but the gross figure is still used and yet not stated as such. When the UK builds a new aircraft carrier at a published gross cost of £4bn you don't start saying yeah but all the shipworkers ate cheese rolls at Mavis's gaff for two years so the country got a rebate and the carrier didn't cost £4bn really.

    Only remainers have a problem with the UK government reporting the EU used to cost us in excess of £350 million a week gross, or 4 or 5 aircraft carriers a year. Luckily most of the electorate, in their tens of millions, agreed with me on the clarity of those figures at the time of the referendum and voted for Brexit on that basis.

    It was not incorrect, misleading or a lie on the Brexit side to run that add on that bus.
    "It wasn't a COMPLETE lie, so it was the truth!"
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

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