Unholy in Arena

[JessicaJones]

Is no one going to talk about how abysmal Unholy is in Arena?

Frost too - at least it's good in 3v3 (off the back of other specs).

Not being able to kill a 1400 prot pala as a 2.6+ UH dk is just laughable. Are the devs on crack or what?

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I've also noticed that Protection Paladins are doing unholy amounts of healing.


(pun intended)

[Rinaul]

So you're saying the fact that prot paladins are dumb broken in arenas is strictly an unholy issue? Heh, wait til you get enhancement shamans.

[JessicaJones]

So you're saying the fact that prot paladins are dumb broken in arenas is strictly an unholy issue? Heh, wait til you get enhancement shamans.

not at all. It was given as context to show how poor UH is. Compare it to any other spec in the game if you want, ENH is also in the same boat - its whataboutism where we wanna see who is the worse, there's a huge disconnect between what is good and what is really bad.

[Rinaul]

not at all. It was given as context to show how poor UH is. Compare it to any other spec in the game if you want, ENH is also in the same boat - its whataboutism where we wanna see who is the worse, there's a huge disconnect between what is good and what is really bad.

So elaborate please. I'd like to be enlightened as I'm only aware of the pretty OP classes/Covenant combos and that's about it. Only thing I'm aware of as far as unholy is that we're not one of those broken classes

[JessicaJones]

So elaborate please. I'd like to be enlightened as I'm only aware of the pretty OP classes/Covenant combos and that's about it. Only thing I'm aware of as far as unholy is that we're not one of those broken classes

All damage being loaded into a pet that dies in 2 seconds if focused, to keep the pet alive you have to sacrifice a significant amount of damage. No necrotic strike, so your damage can be outhealed by a riptide. Abomination that still has the AI of a 20 y/o PS1 game. Deathstrike healing less than ignore pain - again at a huge sacrifice to damage.

I don't really know what to say - go try and do some 2v2 as a UH dk and see for yourself. I'm not claiming to be the best player in the world, but I have plently of cutting edges and parse 90+. I've played at 2.5+mmr every season in arena and almost 3k in a few RBG seasons as well as achieving relatively high M+/rio scores - but I'm literally hardstuck 1.6 partly because I'm not playing optimal comps or with players as good as myself - but it's still a joke - if I was running into this brick wall at 2.1, fine whatever, a few changes and a bit of try harding and I'd say get over it, but it doesnt matter who or what I face, it's always an uphill battle except v disc/rog which is refreshing I guess.

Increasing pet health by 50% or reducing the damage it takes by 50% would be a great start - making necrotic strike absorb more than 1250 healing per rune would also be a great start.

Granted DKs are better in 3s because of the other classes you play with - WW/RET/Warr/SP, but even then its because of them not because of you that you win. But you literally have to run the whole game in 2v2 and hope that the other players fuck up if you want to win.

[deenman]

2lazy2edit

[KOUNTERPARTS]

One of Unholy's biggest problems in PvP, specifically Arena, is how many GCD's you go through in the opening and any time you want to burst after the start.


Anybody playing Unholy in Arenas knows this feeling.


Sure it is not the case 100% of the time. A giant obstacle nonetheless. Our damage certainly is there, but being pigeon-holed by back 2 back 2 back GCD's just to get your damage going will always feel bad.

[chilblains]

2lazy2edit

telling DK players to get gud when class gets called a 2nd ww pet

a 184 ilvl ww/ret/arms/boomkin does more dmg than 215 ilvl uh/frost dk in arenas, have more cc and have more utility

wog heals for 25k while death strike heals for 2k max?

also OP clarified his issues yet your only answer is:

"git gud"

i thought 3 dks in top 100 for 3v3 and 1 fucking dk in top 100 for 2v2 would tell everything but mmo-c being mmo-c some of forum users (like you) still suffer from extreme mental retardation

i think you should git gud about using your brain

[msdos]

In no universe do I consider Frost or Unholy smooth or desirable to play, that's probably why their representation is abysmal.

Frost's offense feels good when cooldowns are up, then after that, you don't do anything but apply slows to people. Your defensives are extremely clunky and bad. You also have to make sure you use Death Pact last in the survival rotation, otherwise you mortal strike yourself; if you're Kyrian, you have like 5 GCDs you press before you're done using survival buttons, one out of six of them work when you're actually stunned.

Unholy is just terrible in PVP. You have like 5 different damage sources between wounds bursting, disease, pet, auto attacks, special attacks, none of it does any damage on it's own, the disease gets dispelled, the wounds are pointless, the pet gets killed or kited, your special attacks do zero damage, you have like 5 cooldowns to manage, wounds, timers, the pet.

I tried BGs and arena as Unholy and noped so hard, went back Frost and never looked back. Frost also does zero dps, so it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

You'll have to wait for reworks for this class to be any good, it just doesn't feel mechanically good to play these specs, their kits were super nerfed, even if you get 99 parses and are rank 1 Mes DK.

[spdr]

telling DK players to get gud when class gets called a 2nd ww pet

a 184 ilvl ww/ret/arms/boomkin does more dmg than 215 ilvl uh/frost dk in arenas, have more cc and have more utility

wog heals for 25k while death strike heals for 2k max?

also OP clarified his issues yet your only answer is:

"git gud"

i thought 3 dks in top 100 for 3v3 and 1 fucking dk in top 100 for 2v2 would tell everything but mmo-c being mmo-c some of forum users (like you) still suffer from extreme mental retardation

i think you should git gud about using your brain

Unholy does great damage it's just extremely easy to shut down and takes 6 global's to get it all out.

[Rinaul]

All damage being loaded into a pet that dies in 2 seconds if focused, to keep the pet alive you have to sacrifice a significant amount of damage. No necrotic strike, so your damage can be outhealed by a riptide. Abomination that still has the AI of a 20 y/o PS1 game. Deathstrike healing less than ignore pain - again at a huge sacrifice to damage.

I don't really know what to say - go try and do some 2v2 as a UH dk and see for yourself. I'm not claiming to be the best player in the world, but I have plently of cutting edges and parse 90+. I've played at 2.5+mmr every season in arena and almost 3k in a few RBG seasons as well as achieving relatively high M+/rio scores - but I'm literally hardstuck 1.6 partly because I'm not playing optimal comps or with players as good as myself - but it's still a joke - if I was running into this brick wall at 2.1, fine whatever, a few changes and a bit of try harding and I'd say get over it, but it doesnt matter who or what I face, it's always an uphill battle except v disc/rog which is refreshing I guess.

Increasing pet health by 50% or reducing the damage it takes by 50% would be a great start - making necrotic strike absorb more than 1250 healing per rune would also be a great start.

Granted DKs are better in 3s because of the other classes you play with - WW/RET/Warr/SP, but even then its because of them not because of you that you win. But you literally have to run the whole game in 2v2 and hope that the other players fuck up if you want to win.

I mean I'm casual af so when I do arena I don't notice things other than the 1 shot classes and the enhance healing. /shrug Like I said casual so had no real investment in it. I'm more a pve player and haven't done much pvp since Legion WM

[Tojara]

Here's the biggest issue with unholy, and to a lesser extent frost. Unholy setup is very obvious takes multiple GCDs to perform and once you see one of the GCDs going out you can safely assume the other ones are coming out as well. One might say that you could just stagger CDs, but unholy CDs feed into one another and aren't really all that impactful on their own. Therefore one of your only options as unholy is to use all of these obvious drawn out GCDs, hoping that they can't get away. Unholy 'burst' is fine in arena, but again obvious. Frost by comparison has quicker goes, can burst higher (depends on comp) and the setup is favorable because nearly all of the frost cooldowns aren't on the GCD (empower and pillar) and teams only have a quick second to react as the range/healer is gripped into the melee mosh pit, only to be stunned and chill streaked soon after.

So the differences are obvious. Frost can setup on a whim and is just as, if not more burst oriented than unholy is.

The other issues with unholy are just the spec in general in arena. Damage is absurdly high right now and nearly every composition is either hyper cleave through melee, or just passive rot damage with range spells. Raise dead has a short cooldown for sure, but because of the damage output your pet is just going to die and that's pretty frustrating if your pet just randomly dies while transformed or when you're looking to leap interrupt or gnaw. Necrotic strike (which is what most people think about when they think about unholy) also just isn't really impactful, let alone used right now. Considering it was the talent that you got for free in BFA when having Conflict and Strife in your neck, it seems absurd that in Shadowlands, the talent just isn't used.

Unholy just has long setup, the pet can die constantly, and I'd argue that of all the DK specs, unholy has probably the worst set of PvP talents of most classes in the game currently. I'm not sure if the AMZ talent is still bugged or not (apparently, if you take the extra 60% DR on AMZ it only works on you, as opposed to any members of your team). If this is still true, it's kind of bull shit considering how fast a sole fire mage or balance druid can kill you or your team.

DKs in general are just vulnerable too. They nerfed death strike back in BFA (rightfully so) when the meta was slower and DKs were kind of live lords, and it hasn't been changed back. If you're caught out in the open as a DK right now you're basically dead, and I'd argue that it's likely the weakest melee defensively. Every other melee has way better mobility or better defensive options (look at what warrior has), or if you're talking retribution you basically have a spammable LoH at the cost of 3 holy power. Death strike doesn't need to giga heal, but it feels unfair when you need to be in melee range and spend resources (granted others do too), for something that amounts to 2-3k healing, while a paladin is using WoG that heals for 15k+ depending on if it crits or not.

DKs in general just need a lot of work in arena (frost less so), and I feel like a lot that's going to come virtue of other things just being nerfed. If they're going to keep the healing high for hybrids at the moment, death strike needs to be buffed in PvP. Unholy is sort of difficult to buff because it's very good in PvE at the moment, but changes to the PvP talents are a very easy way to make them stronger without changing PvE at all.

[JessicaJones]

Honestly, I'd like to see pet health buffed by 50-75% for unholy, Necrotic Strike absorbing 10% of someone's HP as healing and 12.5% with bursting sores. Make deathstrike also heal 7.5% base of hp in arena again.

Also make the abomination controllable.

[Unholyground]

Cov abilities should be disabled in PvP to start with, healing in arenas should be nerfed to like 50% effectiveness.