Is classic still popular?

[D3athsting]

You not replacing much Naxx gear while levelling, some bits are even good for your pre-raid set, Naxx has some great item, even the weapons are comparable with level70 HC dungeon blues.

I used misplaced servo arm until lv 68-69 then i trashed it and i still curse myself for doing that from the moment naxx40 was removed

[MrPaladinGuy]

You not replacing much Naxx gear while levelling, some bits are even good for your pre-raid set, Naxx has some great item, even the weapons are comparable with level70 HC dungeon blues.

Let's also not forget a Chinese guild killed Illidan in full tier 3.

[Athulua]

Starting classic later is actually better than starting on launch.

On launch obviously every server will be packed to the brim and have 20 000 queue but this dies down very quickly and you never know if your server will die or not. You cannot transfer on classic as far as i know so if you dump 500 hours into the game and your server dies to the point of not being able to form a single raid guiid? Tough tits.

Now it's different, now you just pick a high pop one with healthy faction numbers on whatever faction you want to play. And it's unlikely to die even years into the future as players naturally flock into those few playable servers with strong communities and economy. No one is going to register on dead realms.

[Wysmark]

I liked TBC a lot. Karazhan is probably my most favorite instance of all time.

But it was still raid-or-fail era, and doesnt have nostalgia feeling like Classic. Guess ill wait and see if new servers gets made

[Synical123]

I personally hate the storyline, zones, music, dumgeons, raids and pvp in TBC.

The character rotation has nothing to do with the me not liking it. I play every class in shadowlands as well as have 1 of every class in classic.

Well to each their own, I have to ask (not that it matters) did you play tbc when it was current? Or did you just play it in retail when it was old content?

Again not that it matters obviously different people like different things I’m just curious

[Kralljin]

Let's also not forget a Chinese guild killed Illidan in full tier 3.

I'm fairly certain that's a myth as they just put it on for the screenshot.

You think those chinese players played ~2 months of TBC without ever getting something that's superior to T3 while also clearing everything up to Illidan?
T3, at least some pieces, are still solid in TBC, but not *that* solid.

[Askyl]

I'm fairly certain that's a myth as they just put it on for the screenshot.

You think those chinese players played ~2 months of TBC without ever getting something that's superior to T3 while also clearing everything up to Illidan?
T3, at least some pieces, are still solid in TBC, but not *that* solid.

Of course they picked up look on the way but most of the players still had tons of T3 items on them. It's not a myth. If they were lucky with loot they could have gotten max 3-4 pieces of Kara -> SSC/Eye gear each. Since they took down Illidan 7 weeks after TBC released in China, they had to both level up, attune everyone in raids and their focus was not to gear up but to progress. So they didn't split raids with alts etc to get gear faster, wasn't enough time to lvl up alts.

So they all pretty much still had their T3 stuff. But at the point of BT, both SSC and Eye had gotten nerfs.

[Gratlim]

Vanilla servers was what we wanted so many years. I m sure people take a break for retail and they will play again classic after they get bored with retail.

I do not know.. many wanted vanilla servers AND vanilla community/ spirit. The extreme min / max / premading RMT / botting meta and laissez-faire from Blizz killed the second part of it imo around p3. So most quit and will not come back.

Now that BC is mostly guaranteed with progressive servers, most who still enjoy Classic but think all progress on their toons will be lost in 3-4 months have no point in playing until BC launch.
They do not need to be gold farming for BC either as they know they can just buy the cheap gold with no sanction whatsoever (see RMT issue named above).

[Kumorii]

Ngl you’re probably like... the 4th person I’ve ever heard say this. What makes it so bad exactly?

Personally I found zones boring, dungeons were awfully designed except maybe mechanar or what it was called which had the electric charge mechanic on first boss if I remember correctly.
The only good memory I have of that expansion is raiding with the guild and it was probably because of the guild... i quit mid expansion I think.

[Kralljin]

Of course they picked up look on the way but most of the players still had tons of T3 items on them. It's not a myth. If they were lucky with loot they could have gotten max 3-4 pieces of Kara -> SSC/Eye gear each. Since they took down Illidan 7 weeks after TBC released in China, they had to both level up, attune everyone in raids and their focus was not to gear up but to progress. So they didn't split raids with alts etc to get gear faster, wasn't enough time to lvl up alts.

Let's get this straight, they had:

Access to Karazhan from the getgo, resulting in 11x2 pieces of loot (as Karazhan has 11 and drop 2 pieces of loot each)
Assuming they did Karazhan with two raids (makes sense as they have the roster for 25man raids), resulting in 44 pieces total from a single Karazhan clear, which includes Tier set pieces which are pretty much always superior to T3 due to having superior Set bonuses & (Meta) Gem sockets.

Then, on top of that, they had Maulgar, Gruul and Magtheridon, which drop 3 (Maulgar) and 4 pieces (Gruul / Magtheridon), which results in 16 pieces of loot in a single clear (which includes Shoulder, Legs and Chest token).

So, just by clearing T4 in a single week they could get up to:
60 pieces of gear total, with T4 being a save drop.

And i'm supposed to believe that out this huge pool, they wore virtually nothing, despite also having the ability to also clear T4 multiple times?

This is already fishy enough when doing the math for the very first tier and we haven't even talked about:
-T5 Loot (again, Tier sets being straight superior to T3 in most cases)
-T6 loot (also, leagues ahead of T3)
-Arena gear (7 weeks gives you enough time to buy some pieces)
-Heroics loot (which also dropped loot that was on occassion superior to T3 / Naxx loot)
-Badge gear
-Craftable items

If you are 7 weeks into TBC, are actually able to clear everything from Karazhan up to Illidari council and a sizeable portion of your raid is still wearing (close to) full T3, then you are either running an extremely corrupt Lootcouncil, who keeps feeding gear to the same people which keep replacing TBC items or you're just making it intentionally harder on yourself for the sake of the challenge, because reclearing previous raids for more gear pays off big time as far as progression is concerned and people knew that already back in '07.

And that puts aside the massive upgrades players could get outside of raids listed above.

Even if we assume it to be true, it's merely a proof of how undertuned most TBC content was rather than how good T3 is in TBC, because the latter statement falls apart the moment we talk about post 2.1 T4 loot.

I just googled it out of curiosity and found with pic with amazing resolution:


Without making a deep analysis, i only see about three people wearing some T3 pieces, the rest seems pretty reliably decked out in TBC stuff.

[Synical123]

Let's get this straight, they had:

Access to Karazhan from the getgo, resulting in 11x2 pieces of loot (as Karazhan has 11 and drop 2 pieces of loot each)
Assuming they did Karazhan with two raids (makes sense as they have the roster for 25man raids), resulting in 44 pieces total from a single Karazhan clear, which includes Tier set pieces which are pretty much always superior to T3 due to having superior Set bonuses & (Meta) Gem sockets.

Then, on top of that, they had Maulgar, Gruul and Magtheridon, which drop 3 (Maulgar) and 4 pieces (Gruul / Magtheridon), which results in 16 pieces of loot in a single clear (which includes Shoulder, Legs and Chest token).

So, just by clearing T4 in a single week they could get up to:
60 pieces of gear total, with T4 being a save drop.

And i'm supposed to believe that out this huge pool, they wore virtually nothing, despite also having the ability to also clear T4 multiple times?

This is already fishy enough when doing the math for the very first tier and we haven't even talked about:
-T5 Loot (again, Tier sets being straight superior to T3 in most cases)
-T6 loot (also, leagues ahead of T3)
-Arena gear (7 weeks gives you enough time to buy some pieces)
-Heroics loot (which also dropped loot that was on occassion superior to T3 / Naxx loot)
-Badge gear
-Craftable items

If you are 7 weeks into TBC, are actually able to clear everything from Karazhan up to Illidari council and a sizeable portion of your raid is still wearing (close to) full T3, then you are either running an extremely corrupt Lootcouncil, who keeps feeding gear to the same people which keep replacing TBC items or you're just making it intentionally harder on yourself for the sake of the challenge, because reclearing previous raids for more gear pays off big time as far as progression is concerned and people knew that already back in '07.

And that puts aside the massive upgrades players could get outside of raids listed above.

Even if we assume it to be true, it's merely a proof of how undertuned most TBC content was rather than how good T3 is in TBC, because the latter statement falls apart the moment we talk about post 2.1 T4 loot.

I just googled it out of curiosity and found with pic with amazing resolution:


Without making a deep analysis, i only see about three people wearing some T3 pieces, the rest seems pretty reliably decked out in TBC stuff.

Yeah and one of the players there is a mage with t3 shoulders and helm on.... why on earth would a mage (Obviously pushing for world first) be pushing content without getting the best early gear from crafting that isn’t THAT hard to get (shoulders and helm). Unless he truly didn’t have anything else even remotely better because they got funneled to another mage, I can only see him equipping those pieces to get the minute off his evo which idk if that would even be much better than just getting those two objectively better pieces.

[poggers]

Classic is TBC waiting room now. I'm simply waiting for how blizzard is going to handle the servers before I start leveling for it.

[Utrrabbit]

Well to each their own, I have to ask (not that it matters) did you play tbc when it was current? Or did you just play it in retail when it was old content?

Again not that it matters obviously different people like different things I’m just curious

Ive played wow since the 2nd beta of vanilla back in 2003/2004. I played TBC when it was current. It sucked back than.

[Synical123]

Ive played wow since the 2nd beta of vanilla back in 2003/2004. I played TBC when it was current. It sucked back than.

Interesting. Just weird to me because back then, tbc was pretty well received by most back then considering the zones, music, dungeons, were all really unique most people I remember loved the change.

Also, this might not sound right today, considering this is what most people complain about. But the dungeon design and questing design being more linear was REALLY REALLY well received back then. I can’t tell you how many people back in 2007 were blown away by how much more efficient the leveling was back then. The story I could see you not liking, I remember everyone and their dog going “what the fuck is even a Draenei?” Because most assumed we would get something like a goblin or a worgen or something. Also, most people were fucking pissed that blood elves weren’t on the alliance. Back then I didn’t even really care too much about the story besides just seeing Vashj and Kael and illidan again. After reading the book illidan all these years later I think it made the story seem a lot better in hindsight, although this story wasn’t really given to us back then obviously.

Idk to each their own obviously, but I just find it weird how someone can hate tbc but like classic, when to me tbc is just classic but fixed.

[Kralljin]

But the dungeon design and questing design being more linear was REALLY REALLY well received back then. I can’t tell you how many people back in 2007 were blown away by how much more efficient the leveling was back then.

I tend to disagree on the dungeon design.

I liked TBC dungeons in terms of gameplay and its reward structure, but the overall design was just straight shallow.

Having four massive hubs with 3-4 dungeons that effectively use the same layout, except filled with different enemies is just boring.
Auchindoun in particular is a massive offender here, people couldn't even memorize where which dungeon was located because they all looked the same and simply contained different enemies.

All of that is based on Scarlet Monastery, which was in Classic a nice break of pace, but turning it into the MO of dungeon design was just awful.

Classic dungeons were designed as massive places with various activities in them, multiple questchains leading up to them, summonable bosses, unique resources, etc., they were designed to feel more like an actual D&D dungeon rather than a place you can sweep in 20-30 minutes.

Classic 5man dungeons still stand out for their unique design to this day, TBC dungeons are basically modern dungeons in their layout, except even worse because they so heavily rely on the "winged" theme akin to Scarlet monastery, which is something they broke up to some degree in Wotlk, where not every dungeon packed alongside 2-3 other dungeons.

[Synical123]

I tend to disagree on the dungeon design.

I liked TBC dungeons in terms of gameplay and its reward structure, but the overall design was just straight shallow.

Having four massive hubs with 3-4 dungeons that effectively use the same layout, except filled with different enemies is just boring.
Auchindoun in particular is a massive offender here, people couldn't even memorize where which dungeon was located because they all looked the same and simply contained different enemies.

All of that is based on Scarlet Monastery, which was in Classic a nice break of pace, but turning it into the MO of dungeon design was just awful.

Classic dungeons were designed as massive places with various activities in them, multiple questchains leading up to them, summonable bosses, unique resources, etc., they were designed to feel more like some an actual D&D dungeon rather than a place you can sweep in 20-30 minutes.

Classic 5man dungeons still stand out for their unique design to this day, TBC dungeons are basically modern dungeons in their layout, except even worse because they so heavily rely on the "winged" theme akin to Scarlet monastery, which is something they broke up to some degree in Wotlk, where not every dungeon packed alongside 2-3 other dungeons.

The only reason I like it is because it really sort of adds a lot of traffic into certain areas, and the theme of having different dungeons in “wings” of a giant structure seems more immersive as well as having a little more quality of life in terms of gameplay.

Think of brd or maurden, they are massive dungeons that give you the feeling of “this place is fucking huge” because the dungeon is soooooooo long. This is cool to run a couple times, but like most have figured out with classic, this enjoyment dies fairly quickly, people will end up skipping 90% of these later on.

I like the centralized hubs for dungeons, but I do agree that it should be more similar to wotlk where it’s not EVERY dungeon in hubs. Granted tbc had MT at the very end but that doesn’t really count.

But the gist of my post you commented on was the dungeon layouts themselves. Some may hate it today looking back because tbc dungeons sort of wrote the book on how dungeons were to be designed (which is why you may look back at them now and find them boring), but back when tbc was released, I remember people LOVED how the were setup. Very linear, you can’t exploit them and skip 90% of the rooms and farm stuff like in DME, and the end of the dungeons generally lead to the exit. There’s a reason they stuck with this design, because it was so well received.

I agree with you to a certain point that classic dungeon are unique and fun with their massive layouts with hidden stuff sprinkled around with multiple quest chains, but ultimately, these have almost no replayability. They are fun and cool to do these massive dnd like dungeons once, then they are skipped or forgotten about.

[Kralljin]

Think of brd or maurden, they are massive dungeons that give you the feeling of “this place is fucking huge” because the dungeon is soooooooo long. This is cool to run a couple times, but like most have figured out with classic, this enjoyment dies fairly quickly, people will end up skipping 90% of these later on.

That is an extremely superficial analysis.

First off, boosting is too efficient. Period.
Second, not everybody prefers this style, boosting is far less prevalent on PvE servers than on PvP ones.
Thirdly, reasons why even endgame dungeons are rarely run is because people no longer need gear from them and due to the utter absence of difficulty in ZG,AQ20,MC & BWL, it's just far easier to move your fresh 60 into those raids and grab all the stuff no one needs anymore rather than run a dungeon for those few pieces that are actually decently itemized.

People don't run them anymore because the time investment isn't worth the rewards in comparison to the alternatives, this is absolutely nothing new.
TBC dungeons would suffer a similiar fate if they had to exist under the Classic circumstances, including a lack of the heroic mode.

Matter of fact, 5man dungeons have always dropped in relevance as an expansion went on unless Blizzard juiced them up with some badge rewards, up until the introduction of M+ where they effectively froze the relevance of dungeons in place over the course of the entire expansion.

There’s a reason they stuck with this design, because it was so well received.

I'm really baffled that i have to point this out in the Classic forum of all places, but:
Not everything that Blizzard has kept was "well received" by everybody.

This argument also applies to a lot of things that in the mind of the player that prefer the style of older expansions has "ruined the game" and the unpopular opinion is that TBC has sadly introduced elements that has Blizzard really bit in the ass, looking back at it.
Case in point: Arena.

[Tarx]

Classic is TBC waiting room now. I'm simply waiting for how blizzard is going to handle the servers before I start leveling for it.

If you still don't have a level 60 in Classic you will never do .

[Synical123]

That is an extremely superficial analysis.

First off, boosting is too efficient. Period.
Second, not everybody prefers this style, boosting is far less prevalent on PvE servers than on PvP ones.
Thirdly, reasons why even endgame dungeons are rarely run is because people no longer need gear from them and due to the utter absence of difficulty in ZG,AQ20,MC & BWL, it's just far easier to move your fresh 60 into those raids and grab all the stuff no one needs anymore rather than run a dungeon for those few pieces that are actually decently itemized.

People don't run them anymore because the time investment isn't worth the rewards in comparison to the alternatives, this is absolutely nothing new.
TBC dungeons would suffer a similiar fate if they had to exist under the Classic circumstances, including a lack of the heroic mode.

Matter of fact, 5man dungeons have always dropped in relevance as an expansion went on unless Blizzard juiced them up with some badge rewards, up until the introduction of M+ where they effectively froze the relevance of dungeons in place over the course of the entire expansion.

I'm really baffled that i have to point this out in the Classic forum of all places, but:
Not everything that Blizzard has kept was "well received" by everybody.

This argument also applies to a lot of things that in the mind of the player that prefer the style of older expansions has "ruined the game" and the unpopular opinion is that TBC has sadly introduced elements that has Blizzard really bit in the ass, looking back at it.
Case in point: Arena.

Wow you got super offended by me just stating something that I personally prefer and explaining why I do. Let’s take a chill pill for a second friend.

First off, boosting is too efficient. Period.
Second, not everybody prefers this style, boosting is far less prevalent on PvE servers than on PvP ones.
Thirdly, reasons why even endgame dungeons are rarely run is because people no longer need gear from them and due to the utter absence of difficulty in ZG,AQ20,MC & BWL, it's just far easier to move your fresh 60 into those raids and grab all the stuff no one needs anymore rather than run a dungeon for those few pieces that are actually decently itemized.

I’m not speaking about boosting I’m talking about the actual desire to clear these massive, massive instances. Even at the start, there were still a lot of upgrades for a lot of people at the end of these massive dungeons, but honestly once they got their quests done from going through the whole dungeon, or once they did all the secrets etc, then the desire to push these instances just died. There were still benefits to doing these things, but people simply didn’t want to continuously put in these multi-hour sessions to get gear equivalent to just doing something else that’s quicker and easier.

Which is my entire point. Those big, massive, non-linear dungeons are fun... but they just don’t have much replayability once they have been run by the community a couple of times. No one is running brd full clears multi times a week is basically what I’m getting at.

Tbcs dungeon design fixes this. The smaller, linear dungeons make the replayability much more smooth and they aren’t just abandoned once they have been played through one time (with a few exceptions obviously).

Yes I know, badges make them more worthwhile for longer, but I guess part of my point is the things that you say make the dungeons of vanilla great, become meaningless after a certain point and just turn into an annoyance. Because once again, the replayability just isn’t there. If there were badges in vanilla, people would be finding routs for brd in order to find the quickest and easiest way to get them, they wouldn’t be worried about what secrets were hidden in them etc. There would be strats to specifically dodge areas that they don’t have to pull. Christ people are doing that in raids in classic right now.

I’m not saying classic dungeons are bad. I love classic dungeons. I’m saying they are amazing... a couple of times. Then it’s meh. I personally think tbc dungeons have the best of both worlds.

I'm really baffled that i have to point this out in the Classic forum of all places, but:
Not everything that Blizzard has kept was "well received" by everybody.

I never said everybody? I said most people. You can go all “well where’s your stats” if you want, but I think it’s fairly obvious that this design obviously stuck with a lot of people when it came out considering that was blizzards new template so to speak.

Also, just because a system or design feature is considered boring as hell in one expansion of the game, doesn’t mean it’s bad for all expansions of the game. I think flying was really well put in for tbc at the time considering it was really expensive so not everyone could get it, and it was limited to one area of the game so ground mounts were still important. But I believe in a game like retail flying can ruin the experience almost instantaneously.

This argument also applies to a lot of things that in the mind of the player that prefer the style of older expansions has "ruined the game" and the unpopular opinion is that TBC has sadly introduced elements that has Blizzard really bit in the ass, looking back at it.
Case in point: Arena.

Do you think I said every single person ever has always loved everything about tbc? I’m super confused on what you’re attempting to tell me lol. Because I’ve said things like this multiple times now:

Well to each their own, I have to ask (not that it matters) did you play tbc when it was current? Or did you just play it in retail when it was old content?

Again not that it matters obviously different people like different things I’m just curious

- - - Updated - - -

If you still don't have a level 60 in Classic you will never do .

Think you misunderstood what he was saying

[Kralljin]

Wow you got super offended by me just stating something that I personally prefer and explaining why I do. Let’s take a chill pill for a second friend.

Calling something "superficial" is hardly a sign about taking something personal.

So yeah, no idea where you get that from.

but honestly once they got their quests done from going through the whole dungeon, or once they did all the secrets etc, then the desire to push these instances just died.

People aren't willing to do something when more efficient alternatives exist, i already explained this in my post, but thanks for repeating it.

Yes I know, badges make them more worthwhile for longer, but I guess part of my point is the things that you say make the dungeons of vanilla great, become meaningless after a certain point and just turn into an annoyance. Because once again, the replayability just isn’t there. If there were badges in vanilla, people would be finding routs for brd in order to find the quickest and easiest way to get them, they wouldn’t be worried about what secrets were hidden in them etc.

I think it again, shows that you have a very plain read on the whole subject.

What i like about BRD is stuff like the Black Anvil or the Black Forge, how you have to interact with both Npc's and objects to craft materials made from Dark Iron, because obviously Dark Iron dwarves are the kind of people that have tools and knowledge to actually forge Dark Iron, or how you have to open some places in order to acquire some unique reagents for an enchant.
How you have some professions recipes or materials strewn across dungeon, rather them just being a reward from a rep vendor, world random drop or in the case of modern WoW, not existing at all.

It's stuff like the Mallet of Zul'farrak, where people have to go out in the open world, do stuff there in order to summon an additional boss in the dungeon that can drop loot (or just do it for some unique quest reward).
For example, some people just ran LBRS because they wanted to get their hands on the UBRS key, not because they needed it, but because they wanted to have it.
And it's stuff like this, that has been almost completely absent from dungeons since TBC.

It adds so much flavor to these dungeons, rather than just being a winded tunnel filled that goes: Trash-Boss-Trash-Boss-Trash-Boss

It's nothing you'd want to do every day, but that's not the point, but adds more reasons to return to a dungeon other than just [i need item X from Boss Y] or [Bosses drop currency Z], which has the pretty much been the sole motivator to run dungeons over and over again since TBC, which has been quite frankly the primary thing that kept those afloat.

Ignoring all of this and saying "Oh, those places are just big and nonlinear" is too reductionist.

I’m not saying classic dungeons are bad. I love classic dungeons. I’m saying they are amazing... a couple of times. Then it’s meh. I personally think tbc dungeons have the best of both worlds.

They have remnants of the Classic itemization, but in terms of layout, TBC dungeons just aren't good, they're being kept afloat by their rewards.
Even Wotlk dungeons have a better, more mixed Layout than TBC.

TBC are just too damn tubular, the winged theme makes too many look alike and lack the flavor that a lot of the Classic ones had.

but I think it’s fairly obvious that this design obviously stuck with a lot of people when it came out considering that was blizzards new template so to speak.

Again, i can also say that about:
-LFD / LFR
-Seasonal design ("Play the Patch")
-A lot of other elements where the older iterations of the game clearly deviate from the modern game

It's a change in philosophy, not an improved version of the same design.

Also, just because a system or design feature is considered boring as hell in one expansion of the game, doesn’t mean it’s bad for all expansions of the game. I think flying was really well put in for tbc at the time considering it was really expensive so not everyone could get it, and it was limited to one area of the game so ground mounts were still important. But I believe in a game like retail flying can ruin the experience almost instantaneously.

Due to the fact that you could fly without any restriction in TBC and pretty much everybody spent the majority of their time in Outland during TBC (outside of the Isle of Quel'danas), you just couldn't get rid off it anymore, people get used to convenience way too quickly.

TBC was the moment where Blizzard opened Pandora's box on flying, that's just how it is.

Do you think I said every single person ever has always loved everything about tbc? I’m super confused on what you’re attempting to tell me lol. Because I’ve said things like this multiple times now:

Telling you that not everything was a massive improvement in TBC, as you said earlier:

when to me tbc is just classic but fixed.