If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Teriz]

Warlocks had 'Glyph of Demon Hunting' and they were still Warlocks, as evidenced by the Demon Hunter class.

Yes, because nothing dramatic happened to the Warlock class to usher Demon Hunters into Legion right?

So if I'm correct, are you calling Hunters Dark Ranger based on a talent that never went live? Or based on the Dark Ranger ability that was removed? Or was it the NPC who had animal pets that was killed off? It's starting to get a little confusing.

An ability being removed doesn’t mean that the ability never happened. We have multiple examples of abilities being removed in one expansion and being returned in another.

That said, the point is that Blizzard associated the Dark Ranger concept with Undead beasts via those two abilities. The Tinker class was NEVER associated with mechanical animal pets or mechanical animals period. In the case of Dark Ranger and Black Arrow we have deliberate design choices by Blizzard to have both of these abilities revolve around summoning undead animals. Does that mean that Blizzard views the Dark Ranger as an incorporated concept within the Hunter class?

When you consider the fact that the purpose of those talents were to allow Hunters to summon undead creatures, and in Shadowlands Blizzard gave them the ability to actually tame those creatures, that conclusion is highly probable.

[Triceron]

Yes, because nothing dramatic happened to the Warlock class to usher Demon Hunters into Legion right?

So are you saying you would call Warlocks Demon Hunters between the time that they had Metamorphosis and until it got removed from the class?

Absurd.

That said, the point is that Blizzard associated the Dark Ranger

Nope. They were Hunter abilities.

And they don't them any more anyways, where is the Dark Ranger connection right now?

[Unbelievable]

The size of that Draenei next to that Mech he's working on, how large do you think that mech model would be?



Yeah, we're talking about abilities, not things that engineering items poop out. Again, Statues, Traps, and Totems ain't pets, and neither would a Tinker class turret.



Okay, so what if I want to use Reeves in Shadowlands? Howabout Northrend? Howabout Pandaria? Howabout Kul Tiras? Howabout Kalimdoor? Howabout the Eastern Kingdoms? Howabout anything outside of Legion content?

Yeah, thought so.

Also that 30 minute cooldown between uses, inability to loot, and inability to enter dungeons or raids really saps all the fun out of your adventures.



Did you miss the part where it states that it also increases the damage done (aka reduces armor) to the target afterwards?



No I don't.

The same size as it is in game. How many times do we have to explain it to you? nothing about the race that pilots the mech affects the size of it. You just can't see it, for some reason.

You're comparing them to the wrong abilities. A Turret would be classified like an Engineeing Turret and a Pet bombling would be classified like an Engineering pet bombling. Which, both are Guardian pets.

Ain't my problem, amigo. You're not, exactly, considerate when it comes to the inability of a Hunter to use Black Arrow, Life Drain, Banshee's Wail or Mind Control. So, you can eat whatever you cooked for yourself.

So, add an armor reduction to it through a talent. Doesn't change the core ability, which causes fire damage.

Yes, you do. Because you have the skills of a child, trying to portrait an art piece with crayons.

There are even Vulpera spotted in machines.

This is a hamster.

Also Teriz being a hypocrite with his voidelf example for dark ranger. Used the same reasoning why tinkers wont be a thing due engineering about 80 pages back.

It, literally, made me laugh that he believes a Void elf is a Dark Ranger. His imagination is lackluster, at best. He, probably, thought Demon Hunters were Night elf Rogues, back in the day...

How?

+The Void Elf racial passive has a chance to imbue your abilities with Shadow magic for 12 seconds. That’s every arrow and throwing weapon in the Hunter arsenal getting imbued with shadow magic.

+Void Elves can resemble undead elves via the new character customization options.

+Hunters now have the ability to tame undead beasts.

In the end, the Dark Ranger is largely a cosmetic deficit. Tinker is a thematic and ability deficit.

It doesn't make your abilities shadowy:


It makes your abilities inflict extra shadowfrost damage.

And, i missed the part where Dark Rangers become all voidy.



Aha...Very Dark Ranger, indeed -_- (*faceplam*)



What you seem to not understand is that their skin color is derived from being infused with the Void, not being undead. But you, clearly, can't tell the difference, because to you everything is the same.

Hunters can't raise Undead skeletons via Black Arrow, or summon a Wave of Banshees. That is something your Undead beast project can't overcome. And, as a reminder, Hunters can tame Mechanical pets, as of Legion, so that argument of yours turns around on you, as it represents the Tinker.

In the end, the Dark Ranger is a potential new spec, within a Ranger class. Those who are unable to see it, haven't been following the lore, lately.

Sylvanas and the Dark Rangers of Warcraft 3 didn't have undead beast pets. That wasn't a part of their Class identity at all.

And Hunter is still missing... ALL the gameplay of a Dark Ranger.

Exactly.
He thinks that if he reduces it to Undead beasts, or if he reduces undead High elves into Void elves, it makes him, somehow, right.

This is a poor attempt of a demagogue to get rid of competition.

Due to engineering and gnome hunters able to tame mechanical pets tinkers exist in the game with the same reasoning you used for dark rangers. Tinker class fantasy is filled the same way.

He doesn't realize that his broken logic is going against him.

Tinkers aren’t Hunters or Rangers. The point of the Tinker concept isn’t taming mechanical animals. The point of the Tinker is mech piloting.

The point of the Dark Ranger is a Hunter or Ranger that uses Shadow magic, hence the name. Void Elves fulfill that on multiple levels.

- - - Updated - - -



WC3 Black Arrow summoned undead minions, so it was sort of like having pets. Also Black Arrow in Legion summoned undead animals as guardians. Hunters can now have those undead guardians as permanent pets.

Which, you can do with Reaves.

Shadow magic is generalizing Death, Void and Fel into, simply, being Shadow magic. If that was the case, there was no need for a Warlock, Death Knight and Priest classes, when you can have one class that does Shadow magic, that will be considered Death, Void and Fel at the same time. But, you don't use logic. You use demagogy. So, i'm not surprised.

Dark Rangers use Death Magic. Void elves use Void magic. Learn the difference.

The Dark Minion is a Skeletal human. The legion version tried to imitate it.

Additionally, if you want your abilities imbued with Shadow magic like a Dark Ranger, Void Elves provide that in a racial passive with a rather nice proc rate.

No. no one wants their abilities imbued with shadow magic. They want Black Arrow, Life Drain, Banshee's Wail, Mind Control, Banshee's Curse, Withering Fire, Shadow Dagger, Haunting Wave, Possession and more...

[Teriz]

So are you saying you would call Warlocks Demon Hunters between the time that they had Metamorphosis and until it got removed from the class?

Absurd.

Considering that Warlocks with metamorphosis barred Demon Hunters from entering the game as a separate class, yea I would.

Nope. They were Hunter abilities.

Druid Starfall doesn't make them a Priestess of the moon by association of having their spell. No reason why a Animal based talent make Hunters into Dark Rangers.

No, but that really isn’t the same case. In the case of Dark Rangers and Hunters we’ve had Dark Rangers as Hunter trainers, members of their class halls, and as exclusive quest givers. In addition to that, the Hunter class has held Black Arrow for multiple expansions. Finally we ended up with two abilities heavily associated with Dark Rangers that were tied to the summoning of Undead beasts.

In the end, you should probably consider that there’s a very good chance that Blizzard has a different view of what a Dark Ranger is than you do.

- - - Updated - - -

And they don't them any more anyways, where is the Dark Ranger connection right now?

Undead beast taming, since summoning undead beasts was the point of both Black Arrow and Dark Ranger talents in Legion.

[bagina]

I don't unerstand this argument that Dark Rangers are just Hunters with a different flavour and thus shouldn't exist. I mean, no shit they're similar? That's not a bad thing. Palas/DKs are just warriors with different flavour and Warlocks are just Mages with different flavour and so on. Multiple classes have the exact same abilites, the only difference is the naming. Overlap between classes has always existed and is a good thing. Another bow class would be perfectly appropriate.

[Teriz]

The same size as it is in game. How many times do we have to explain it to you? nothing about the race that pilots the mech affects the size of it. You just can't see it, for some reason.

So you’re saying that a Draenei inside a mech should be as large as a Draenei not piloting a mech?

You're comparing them to the wrong abilities. A Turret would be classified like an Engineeing Turret and a Pet bombling would be classified like an Engineering pet bombling. Which, both are Guardian pets.

Uh no it wouldn’t. Engineering turrets are items. A tinker turret would be an ability. Just like totems, monk statues, and Hunter traps.

Ain't my problem, amigo.

Then you just killed your own argument. Well done.

So, add an armor reduction to it through a talent. Doesn't change the core ability, which causes fire damage.

The point is that fire damage isn’t part of the core ability. It stands to reason that the actual ability would be more like the HotS incarnation than the WoW standby.

It doesn't make your abilities shadowy:


It makes your abilities inflict extra shadowfrost damage.

That’s magic. Try shooting some arrows.

And, i missed the part where Dark Rangers become all voidy.

So the void isn’t “dark”?

Hunters can't raise Undead skeletons via Black Arrow, or summon a Wave of Banshees. That is something your Undead beast project can't overcome. And, as a reminder, Hunters can tame Mechanical pets, as of Legion, so that argument of yours turns around on you, as it represents the Tinker.

Like I said, Blizzard associated Dark Rangers with undead beasts via Black Arrow and the discarded Dark Ranger talents from Legion. They never associated the Tinker with mechanical animals. Sorry, those are simply the facts.

No. no one wants their abilities imbued with shadow magic. They want Black Arrow, Life Drain, Banshee's Wail, Mind Control, Banshee's Curse, Withering Fire, Shadow Dagger, Haunting Wave, Possession and more...

You’re never getting Life Drain, that’s a core Warlock spell. You’re never getting possession or Mind Control because Priests have Mind Control and Dominate Mind. Shadow Dagger is to close to multiple Rogue abilities. You can also forget about the Banshee abilities too, since only Sylvanas is a Banshee and Blizzard made it clear that you don’t need to be a banshee to be a Dark Ranger.

So what does that leave us?

Shadow arrows and a shadow port.

Roll a Void Elf.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't unerstand this argument that Dark Rangers are just Hunters with a different flavour and thus shouldn't exist. I mean, no shit they're similar? That's not a bad thing. Palas/DKs are just warriors with different flavour and Warlocks are just Mages with different flavour and so on. Multiple classes have the exact same abilites, the only difference is the naming. Overlap between classes has always existed and is a good thing. Another bow class would be perfectly appropriate.

It goes beyond them being similar. They’re essentially the same, with Dark Rangers simply having shadow-based arrows. Gameplay-wise they would provide little different than the existing Hunter class. Blizzard seems to recognize this, which is why they took great pains to align the Dark Ranger and Hunter concepts at multiple points in the history of WoW.

[rarhyx]

I cant believe how long a few posters here have been wasting their lives endlessly arguing back and forth about class concepts. They will never agree nor compromise, and they refuse to stop unless they are proven right. They're literally just wasting their lives away at this stage. How this thread at 139 pages with the same people literally arguing with each other I have no clue. I see this thread in the most recent posts tab literally every day.

this happens everytime a new class concept and in specific the tinker is mentioned

[Unbelievable]

So you’re saying that a Draenei inside a mech should be as large as a Draenei not piloting a mech?



Uh no it wouldn’t. Engineering turrets are items. A tinker turret would be an ability. Just like totems, monk statues, and Hunter traps.



Then you just killed your own argument. Well done.



The point is that fire damage isn’t part of the core ability. It stands to reason that the actual ability would be more like the HotS incarnation than the WoW standby.



That’s magic. Try shooting some arrows.



So the void isn’t “dark”?



Like I said, Blizzard associated Dark Rangers with undead beasts via Black Arrow and the discarded Dark Ranger talents from Legion. They never associated the Tinker with mechanical animals. Sorry, those are simply the facts.



You’re never getting Life Drain, that’s a core Warlock spell. You’re never getting possession or Mind Control because Priests have Mind Control and Dominate Mind. Shadow Dagger is to close to multiple Rogue abilities. You can also forget about the Banshee abilities too, since only Sylvanas is a Banshee and Blizzard made it clear that you don’t need to be a banshee to be a Dark Ranger.

So what does that leave us?

Shadow arrows and a shadow port.

Roll a Void Elf.

No. use your eyes. It's in the game. If you have to, wear glasses.

An ability that summons a Turret or a bombling pet, Like the Engineering items. Not a Trap, Statue or Totem.

I didn't kill anything. If i have to compromise, so do you.

The HotS incarnation doesn't state what type of damage it does. If you have the WoW ability specifying that, there's no need to go somewhere else.



I guess Sylvanas has a beef with her Void elf sister, Alleria, as a Void elf herself, right?


Signal Exploding Sheep
Unlimited range
1.5 sec cast
Mekkatorque calls down a herd of Explosive Sheep that detonate after a short delay.


Tameable

Activate Anti-Personnel Squirrel — Mechagon Tinkerer creates a mechanical squirrel that chases towards a random player, inflicting 50 Nature damage to all enemies within 10 yards of the detonation.


Tameable

You were saying....?

This reminds me of something...
"You're never getting Metamorphosis, because that's a Warlock ability. You're never getting something like Evasion, because that's a Rogue ability. You're never getting something like Immolate, because that's a Warlock ability. You're never getting Mana Burn, because that was a Priest ability. You're never getting Death Coil, because that's a Warlock ability."

Now is my turn:
You're never getting Explosives or any mechanical pet abilities, because Hunters can, already, do that. You're not getting a mechanical suit, technological devices, mechanical petlings or explosives because Engineers, already, have that.

"So what does that leave us?

Goggles and mechanical mounts.

Roll a Gnome, Goblin or Mechagnome."

[Teriz]

No. use your eyes. It's in the game. If you have to, wear glasses.

Let's try this again;




This image you posted shows a mech that is much larger than a male Draenei, one of the largest races in the game (if I had to guess, I would say it's about double the size of the Draenei). Do you honestly believe they're going to allow a Tinker mech to be that large when it would have to go into interior spaces?

An ability that summons a Turret or a bombling pet, Like the Engineering items. Not a Trap, Statue or Totem.

And now let's try this again; You do understand that classes use abilities right? You do understand that abilities and items are different things correct?

I didn't kill anything. If i have to compromise, so do you.

Except what are you really compromising here? If I compromise with Reeves I have a "mech" that is a nightmare to construct, has a ridiculous cooldown, has zero of the Tinker's abilities, can't loot items, and is unplayable with 99% of the content in the game. If you compromise with Void Elves what exactly are you giving up? You get your archer with shadow powers. You get the undead looking elf. You get the shadow port. You get the shadow-laced throwing blades. You get everything you want gameplay wise. There's no equivalence there at all.

The HotS incarnation doesn't state what type of damage it does. If you have the WoW ability specifying that, there's no need to go somewhere else.

It doesn't need to. The mechanic is rather clear that the Gravity Bomb deals damage and reduces armor. That is definitely not a fire bomb.

I guess Sylvanas has a beef with her Void elf sister, Alleria, as a Void elf herself, right?

Irrelevant. If we're serious about this Dark Ranger idea, then it would make sense for Void Elves to be the true Dark Rangers because they can actually reproduce their abilities via Void powers. In the case of Sylvanas, only she herself has Banshee abilities.

Signal Exploding Sheep
Unlimited range
1.5 sec cast
Mekkatorque calls down a herd of Explosive Sheep that detonate after a short delay.


Tameable

Activate Anti-Personnel Squirrel — Mechagon Tinkerer creates a mechanical squirrel that chases towards a random player, inflicting 50 Nature damage to all enemies within 10 yards of the detonation.


Tameable

You were saying....?

Feel free to point me to the Hunter mechanical animal pet that doubles as a bomb and explodes on command.

That said, neither of those abilities are Tinker abilities.

This reminds me of something...
"You're never getting Metamorphosis, because that's a Warlock ability. You're never getting something like Evasion, because that's a Rogue ability. You're never getting something like Immolate, because that's a Warlock ability. You're never getting Mana Burn, because that was a Priest ability. You're never getting Death Coil, because that's a Warlock ability."

Yeah, you've missed the point entirely. Despite Demon Hunter abilities being spread out among multiple classes, the concept itself still had the potential for offering unique gameplay simply because of Metamorphosis. In addition, the lore supported the idea of multiple Demon Hunters who could replicate Illidan's abilities.

What do you have with the Dark Ranger? Even if we gave this class all of the abilities you desire, you're still stuck with nothing more than an evil Hunter. It offers nothing unique, and if you really think about how something like that would play, it would honestly be a mess. Like seriously, would you pull a mob with an arrow, shoot it again, and then attack it with life drain? What kind of rotation is that? What purpose would something like possession serve for a bow class? Would it give you a pet? Would you run around in an NPCs body and kill stuff while your real body just stands there? A player actually playing something like that would think they're playing a mishmash of class concepts that don't gel together, and they would be correct.

And btw, the Tinker doesn't have that issue. That's the benefit of mech-based gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -

9 divided by 4 isn't 3 either ......

Gnomes are around 3 ft according to this.



So a mech about 8.5 to 9ft tall;



Would look decent size wise for Gnomes, Goblins, and other small races.

Draenei? Not so much.

[loras]

The debate is mainly between Ielenia and Triceron currently. I haven't really responded to Ielenia for multiple pages.

Apologies, i had not noticed.

[Xeenith]

dark ranger should be a 4th hunter spec with no animal pets
necromancer should be a 4th priest spec with a few perma pets and many temp ones
bard should be a 4th rogue spec with a ranger weapon, bards where also know as spies ans assassins in the past, in courts & intrigue

[Unbelievable]

Let's try this again;




This image you posted shows a mech that is much larger than a male Draenei, one of the largest races in the game (if I had to guess, I would say it's about double the size of the Draenei). Do you honestly believe they're going to allow a Tinker mech to be that large when it would have to go into interior spaces?



And now let's try this again; You do understand that classes use abilities right? You do understand that abilities and items are different things correct?



Except what are you really compromising here? If I compromise with Reeves I have a "mech" that is a nightmare to construct, has a ridiculous cooldown, has zero of the Tinker's abilities, can't loot items, and is unplayable with 99% of the content in the game. If you compromise with Void Elves what exactly are you giving up? You get your archer with shadow powers. You get the undead looking elf. You get the shadow port. You get the shadow-laced throwing blades. You get everything you want gameplay wise. There's no equivalence there at all.



It doesn't need to. The mechanic is rather clear that the Gravity Bomb deals damage and reduces armor. That is definitely not a fire bomb.



Irrelevant. If we're serious about this Dark Ranger idea, then it would make sense for Void Elves to be the true Dark Rangers because they can actually reproduce their abilities via Void powers. In the case of Sylvanas, only she herself has Banshee abilities.




Feel free to point me to the Hunter mechanical animal pet that doubles as a bomb and explodes on command.

That said, neither of those abilities are Tinker abilities.



Yeah, you've missed the point entirely. Despite Demon Hunter abilities being spread out among multiple classes, the concept itself still had the potential for offering unique gameplay simply because of Metamorphosis. In addition, the lore supported the idea of multiple Demon Hunters who could replicate Illidan's abilities.

What do you have with the Dark Ranger? Even if we gave this class all of the abilities you desire, you're still stuck with nothing more than an evil Hunter. It offers nothing unique, and if you really think about how something like that would play, it would honestly be a mess. Like seriously, would you pull a mob with an arrow, shoot it again, and then attack it with life drain? What kind of rotation is that? What purpose would something like possession serve for a bow class? Would it give you a pet? Would you run around in an NPCs body and kill stuff while your real body just stands there? A player actually playing something like that would think they're playing a mishmash of class concepts that don't gel together, and they would be correct.

And btw, the Tinker doesn't have that issue. That's the benefit of mech-based gameplay.

That's, pretty much, the size relations in-game between a Lightforged Draenei and a Lightforged Warframe. Otherwise, they couldn't have piloted it. I didn't draw it.

You do understand that Turret and pet bomblings are more in-line with Turrets and pet bomblings, than traps, statues and totems, right?

I'm giving up everything that makes a Dark Ranger. Go check the Dark Ranger abilities in WC3 and Sylvanas' abilities in HotS, and come back here.

Dealing damage and reducing armor is not in contradiction with dealing fire damage. Like you always love to say: "apparently, Blizzard thinks differently than you are."

Then, you know nothing about lore. Because Dark Rangers do not use Void powers. Explaining this to you, is like trying to explain a toddler mathematics. Sylvans is the only one to use Banshee powers, like Arthas is the only one to be the Lich King, wielding the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne, and Like Illidan is the only one to have his eyes Burnt by Sargeras and consumed the Skull of Gul'dan. This is irrelevant when making a new class.

Let me quote you:
"They never associated the Tinker with mechanical animals".
Which, they did. Just proved you wrong on that.
They are Tinker abilities, if they are used by Tinkers.

You want the explosion part of it? use:
Explosive Sheep
Use: Summons an Explosive Sheep which will charge at a nearby enemy and explode for 150 damage. Lasts for 3 min or until it explodes.
Requires Engineering (150)
1 Charge
Sell Price: 10s

Oh, so suddenly the Demon Hunter brings with it unique gameplay and lore relevancy? Said the dude that was against them in the first place...

Ah... so now you're, also, a class developer at Blizzard entertainment who knows, exactly, how a Dark Ranger would play or not and have a stamp of approval whether it is eligible or not. I'm so sorry, mr. Blizzard developer, for ever questioning your logic and your future sight abilities, because you, clearly, know how a class plays or not.

[Teriz]

That's, pretty much, the size relations in-game between a Lightforged Draenei and a Lightforged Warframe. Otherwise, they couldn't have piloted it. I didn't draw it.

Yeah, you didn't answer my question.

Let's make it visual;






Do you actually believe they would allow a mech that large to be an ability in a playable class?

You do understand that Turret and pet bomblings are more in-line with Turrets and pet bomblings, than traps, statues and totems, right?

No, because those are items, not class abilities.

I'm giving up everything that makes a Dark Ranger. Go check the Dark Ranger abilities in WC3 and Sylvanas' abilities in HotS, and come back here.

Again, you're not getting the majority of those abilities. Black Arrow in HotS is unworkable for WoW. Life Drain, Haunting Wave, and Possession don't make much sense for a bow class. etc.

Then, you know nothing about lore. Because Dark Rangers do not use Void powers.

If gameplay-wise they're both dealing shadow damage, who cares?

Let me quote you:
"They never associated the Tinker with mechanical animals".
Which, they did. Just proved you wrong on that.
They are Tinker abilities, if they are used by Tinkers.

Incorrect. They're Tinker abilities if they're from HotS and WC3. What a random NPC and Mekkatorque does isn't necessarily a Tinker ability unless clearly indicated, like those Dark Ranger talents from the Hunter class.

You want the explosion part of it? use:
Explosive Sheep
Use: Summons an Explosive Sheep which will charge at a nearby enemy and explode for 150 damage. Lasts for 3 min or until it explodes.
Requires Engineering (150)
1 Charge
Sell Price: 10s

That isn't a Hunter ability champ.

Oh, so suddenly the Demon Hunter brings with it unique gameplay and lore relevancy? Said the dude that was against them in the first place...

Yes, and I'm still not happy about their implementation. However, Metamorphosis DID offer a unique gameplay opportunity that simply isn't present in the Dark Ranger concept.

Interestingly, the Tinker concept ALSO has a unique gameplay opportunity as well.

Ah... so now you're, also, a class developer at Blizzard entertainment who knows, exactly, how a Dark Ranger would play or not and have a stamp of approval whether it is eligible or not. I'm so sorry, mr. Blizzard developer, for ever questioning your logic and your future sight abilities, because you, clearly, know how a class plays or not.

If you take a minute and REALLY think how those abilities would work together, you would realize they're unworkable as well. Seriously, just play a Hunter in classic where they still used Mana, and while you're playing, think how abilities like Life Drain or Possession would work into that kind of play style.

[Ielenia]

Yes, because nothing dramatic happened to the Warlock class to usher Demon Hunters into Legion right?

And what does that mean, to you?

Because, to me, it means that if Blizzard had no qualms about removing a spec- and gameplay-defining ability that stayed within the warlock class for almost ten years... I don't think Blizzard won't even think twice about removing a talent that was not spec-defining or gameplay-defining, that existed within the class for just for a few months' worth of time and never left the alpha development stage.

If Blizzard removed the metarmophosis ability from the warlocks, that the class currently had at the time, remade their entire spec to fit a new gameplay style, to bring in the demon hunter class... what makes you think that the "dark ranger" talent, that never made out of alpha stages, will prevent Blizzard from creating a dark ranger class?

[Teriz]

And what does that mean, to you?

Because, to me, it means that if Blizzard had no qualms about removing a spec- and gameplay-defining ability that stayed within the warlock class for almost ten years... what makes you think Blizzard will think twice about removing a talent that was not spec-defining or gameplay-defining, that existed within the class for just for a few months' worth of time and never left the alpha development stage?

If Blizzard removed the metarmophosis ability from the warlocks, that the class currently had at the time, remade their entire spec to fit a new gameplay style, to bring in the demon hunter class... what makes you think that the "dark ranger" talent, that never made out of alpha stages, will prevent Blizzard from creating a dark ranger class?

Metamorphosis was a class defining ability though. That ability alone made the class what it was, and gave it unique qualities not found in any other class.

Black Arrow? What does it really add to a Dark Ranger class? The ability to produce an undead animal from an arrow shot? Hunters can already tame undead animals. The ability to produce a skeleton from an arrow shot? Death Knights can already summon skeletons.

So in short; Whoop dee do.

The achilles' heel of the Dark Ranger concept was always that at its core, it's simply a cosmetic difference between it and the existing Hunter class. There's no mechanic that really separates it, which is why Blizzard has clearly merged the two concepts together.

[Triceron]

Considering that Warlocks with metamorphosis barred Demon Hunters from entering the game as a separate class, yea I would.

You considered a class that was unaccessible to Night Elves that had one single ability to turn into Demons to be considered the same as the Demon Hunter class.

Amazing!

Yeah, no one else would ever agree with you on this point, so I think it's fair to say Hunters aren't Dark Rangers just because they used to have Black Arrow. Whatever connections you brought up aren't even in the game any more. If what you said was true and they are one and the same, those concepts should be doubled down on, not separated further. If Glyph of Demon Hunting was taken away from Warlocks and they were getting all their Demon Hunter related abilities taken away, would you still call them Demon Hunters? Because that's what happened with the Hunter. There are no Dark Rangers training Hunters any more, there are no Dark Rangers with pets, there are no Dark Ranger abilities on a Hunter. Whatever 'history' you are basing this on has been scrubbed out of the Hunter class.

But hey, everyone already is fully aware of your personal convictions and don't buy the rhetoric.

You aren't even talking about the same game as anyone else any more.

[Teriz]

You considered a class that was unaccessible to Night Elves that had one single ability to turn into Demons to be considered the same as the Demon Hunter class.

Amazing!

Like I always said; You wouldn't have a Demon Hunter class in WoW as long as Warlocks possessed Metamorphosis.

And here we are.

Yeah, no one else would ever agree with you on this point, so I think it's fair to say Hunters aren't Dark Rangers just because they used to have Black Arrow. Whatever connections you brought up aren't even in the game any more. If what you said was true and they are one and the same, those concepts should be doubled down on, not separated further. If Glyph of Demon Hunting was taken away from Warlocks and they were getting all their Demon Hunter related abilities taken away, would you still call them Demon Hunters? Because that's what happened with the Hunter. There are no Dark Rangers training Hunters any more, there are no Dark Rangers with pets, there are no Dark Ranger abilities on a Hunter. Whatever 'history' you are basing this on has been scrubbed out of the Hunter class.

And you honestly think that legacy that Blizzard has built over the course of over a decade suddenly disappears because they streamlined all of that stuff into modern Hunter class? Hilarious. Again, the purpose of Dark Ranger and Black Arrow was to summon undead beasts for the Hunter. Hunters now tame undead beasts via a tome in Shadowlands (Forsaken do it from jump).

The writing's on the wall.

As I've said before, there's a reason there's no Dark Ranger class in an expansion where the theme is death, and Sylvanas is the main character.

[Diaphin]

And you honestly think that legacy that Blizzard has built over the course of over a decade suddenly disappears because they streamlined all of that stuff into modern Hunter class? Hilarious. Again, the purpose of Dark Ranger and Black Arrow was to summon undead beasts for the Hunter. Hunters now tame undead beasts via a tome in Shadowlands (Forsaken do it from jump).

The writing's on the wall.

As I've said before, there's a reason there's no Dark Ranger class in an expansion where the theme is death, and Sylvanas is the main character.

Yeah, but there is also not really a high chance that Blizz will ever introduce a mech based expansion centered around Gnomes and Goblins into which a Tinker class would fit. I mean, the one piece of Gnome content was already an absolute side story with no relevance to the actual plot of the expansion and without a single proper cutscene and Goblins and Gnomes seem to be unimportant enough for Blizzard, that important storyline for their race are put into optional questlines which only a small percentage of players will be even able to play due to race and/or reputation requirements.

Compare that to Elves, Orcs, Undeads or humans, whose plotlines are always front and center part of the main storyline. Hell, even Void Elves, an allied race, had more involvement with the war campaign of BfA than gnomes.

[Triceron]

Like I always said; You wouldn't have a Demon Hunter class in WoW as long as Warlocks possessed Metamorphosis.

And here we are.

Right. So by that logic we wouldn't have a Dark Ranger class as long as Hunters possess Dark Ranger abilities.

Which they don't have.

And you honestly think that legacy that Blizzard has built over the course of over a decade suddenly disappears because they streamlined all of that stuff into modern Hunter class? Hilarious.

There's only one legacy to consider, and that is Blizzard doesn't apply class identities to individual abilities and are open to giving them to any class regardless of where they originated from. Priests with Manaburn, Warlocks with Death Coil, Mages with Frost Nova, Druids with Starfall, Rogues with Evasion.

Yeah, there's no connection between these classes and the WC3 Heroes they took the abilities from. Even with Shadowlands literally giving Mages a Skeletal Mage form, no one would consider them Necromancers or Liches. And yes, Mages have had a connection to Necromancy for over a decade, and no one would be dumb enough to mistake the two.

As I've said before, there's a reason there's no Dark Ranger class in an expansion

So? That doesn't make them Hunters either. There's no logical connection between you calling a Hunter a Dark Ranger and them not currently being playable. That's like saying Druids are Priestess of the Moon because there's no reason for a Priestess of the Moon class in any future expansion; it's absurd.

[Teriz]

Yeah, but there is also not really a high chance that Blizz will ever introduce a mech based expansion centered around Gnomes and Goblins into which a Tinker class would fit. I mean, the one piece of Gnome content was already an absolute side story with no relevance to the actual plot of the expansion and without a single proper cutscene and Goblins and Gnomes seem to be unimportant enough for Blizzard, that important storyline for their race are put into optional questlines which only a small percentage of players will be even able to play due to race and/or reputation requirements.

Actually there is a high chance because the steampunk/technology theme has always existed in Warcraft. Simply because you dislike that theme doesn't apply to Blizzard viewing it as viable.

- - - Updated - - -

Right. So by that logic we wouldn't have a Dark Ranger class as long as Hunters possess Dark Ranger abilities.

Which they don't have.

No, Warlocks and Priests have Dark Ranger abilities. Hunter's merely have the play style, and now they can also tame undead animals.

There's only one legacy to consider, and that is Blizzard doesn't apply class identities to individual abilities and are open to giving them to any class regardless of where they originated from. Priests with Manaburn, Warlocks with Death Coil, Mages with Frost Nova, Druids with Starfall, Rogues with Evasion.

Heres the thing though, Demon Hunters would have gotten Mana Burn if it wasn't deemed OP in Cataclysm. Death Knights would have gotten Frost Nova if it wasn't easy to create another AoE Frost ability. Demon Hunters not getting evasion isn't a huge deal since by the time they entered WoW multiple classes had on-demand dodge abilities.

The only real sticklers are Death Coil, which eventually ended up with Death Knights, and Starfall which ended up in Druid since it didn't work with Priests or Hunters.

Again, you can't compare those situations to the situation with Dark Rangers and Hunters.

Yeah, there's no connection between these classes and the WC3 Heroes they took the abilities from. Even with Shadowlands literally giving Mages a Skeletal Mage form, no one would consider them Necromancers or Liches. And yes, Mages have had a connection to Necromancy for over a decade, and no one would be dumb enough to mistake the two.

Except Death Knights did end up with Death Coil, and Demon Hunters got a variation of Mana Burn.

So? That doesn't make them Hunters either. There's no logical connection between you calling a Hunter a Dark Ranger and them not currently being playable. That's like saying Druids are Priestess of the Moon because there's no reason for a Priestess of the Moon class in any future expansion; it's absurd.

Except they're already playable; They're playable via the Hunter class.